Out-earning your H no longer problematic

[goldengirlz]

www.wsj.com/articles/more-wives-now-outearn-their-husbands-they-also-stay-together-longer-1ac089dc?mod=hp_lead_pos11

This is interesting. While out-earning your husband in the 1970s meant you had a 70% higher chance of divorce, now it’s only 4%. I did not know the gap had narrowed that much!

The article goes through a number of reasons why things have changed. In addition to men feeling less threatened, I’m sure in the 1970s, out-earning your H meant you didn’t need to stay in a bad marriage. And these days, higher earning women tend to get married later, which is also correlated with a lower divorce rate.

[fernweh]

That is a huge shift in such a short amount of time. H and I had to work through some issues with this. When we got married he made more than me and over time I closed the gap and now make about double what he does.
I think the hardest thing for him was the dynamic shift more so than me making more. He viewed in as me moving forward and he was stagnant and felt left behind.
Once he realized that we could grow together in other ways and also that more money for me meant more for us ( we share finances) he was able to get over it. Now he is very supportive and my biggest cheerleader but it was definitely an adjustment.

[Deleted]

I think men who grow up with mothers who worked outside of the home and contributed significantly to household income also feel less threatened by a working wife, especially one who might make more than them.

Anecdotally, my first husband was extremely threatened by my career and my income, and his mom didn’t work outside of the home, and made no income. Neither he nor his family were supportive of my career. My second husband (of the same age and generation) has a mom who worked a long career outside of the home earning a significant amount (maybe 30-40% of the HHI) and he and his family are both very supportive.

[underwaterrhymes]

I’m glad this is moving in the right direction.

H makes more than I do by quite a bit, but he’s told me if somehow I start making enough for him to be a house spouse, he’d love to do that.

[goldengirlz]

May 11, 2023 20:06:11 GMT -5 @villainv said:

I think men who grow up with mothers who worked outside of the home and contributed significantly to household income also feel less threatened by a working wife, especially one who might make more than them.

Anecdotally, my first husband was extremely threatened by my career and my income, and his mom didn’t work outside of the home, and made no income. Neither he nor his family were supportive of my career. My second husband (of the same age and generation) has a mom who worked a long career outside of the home earning a significant amount (maybe 30-40% of the HHI) and he and his family are both very supportive.

Really good point about how it’s been normalized for many men. And not just the idea of women earning more. But also contributing to more of the housework that’s then required from them.

Also anecdotal, but the happiest couples I know are the ones that feel like equal partners. A lot of ink gets spilled on how men feel about higher-earning wives, but less discussed is those 1970s high earners who were also doing an outsized share of the domestic labor. That breeds resentment. And it’s definitely getting better.

[StrawberryBlondie]

May 11, 2023 20:22:28 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I’m glad this is moving in the right direction.

H makes more than I do by quite a bit, but he’s told me if somehow I start making enough for him to be a house spouse, he’d love to do that.

We have a deal that we made probably about 5-10 years ago that if one of us gets a job that made double our combined income, the other gets to quit working and be a SAH-whatever.

We've still got a ways to go but now we each make about what our combined income was back then, so progress!

[loira]

My H works part time and runs our household. I out-earn him by quite a bit. It works for us but I do wish he'd make more money. He's an adjunct professor and massively underpaid. But not a lot of opportunity for him to teach his subject at nearby universities.

I'm hoping the fact that this sort of thing is more common means professions traditionally seen as "women's jobs" will see higher salaries.

[sent]

I remember when I finished residency, I told my then-finance that I had the potential to make large amounts of money. I showed him some examples of wildly successful private practice doctors and how they got there. But I needed his support because it meant a lot of hard work in the beginning to start a practice from the ground up and it also meant moving somewhere other than Manhattan to find demographics that would support quick growth of the business.

He threw a fit and told me to "go get a job." What really confused me is both sets of our very, very traditional parents got behind him making me think I was somehow wrong.

Because none of these 5 adults could imagine a world where I could potentially out earn the husband. It's almost like they wanted to set me up to minimize the chances of that even being possible by telling me to sit down, stop having wild ideas about starting a practice, and "go find a job." 

And this is why I'm in therapy.

[mrsukyankee]

I was earning more than my H when we first started dating and into our first 10 years of marriage. I supported him in his movement to a different place and to challenge himself in work. He now makes a HUGE amount more than when we met, and my salary decreased, as I left my job and went into a different place/environment (which was healthier for me and encouraged by my H).

He was perfectly fine with me earning more (it gave us the ability to buy a house) and I'm fine with him now earning more. We've both focused more on how our jobs fulfil our needs than the money and that has worked out well for us.

[mpm]

I can’t get behind the paywall, but one issue we’ve encountered is employers still seem to operate as if (male) employees don’t have a working spouse, or at least not one that meaningfully contributes to the household income. H’s boss keeps approaching him with promotions that would either involve relocating to places where I wouldn’t be able to work, or that would involve a significant increase in travel such that my ability to work the hours I do would be hugely affected. Both for raises that wouldn’t come close to compensating for the resulting loss to my income. And it was as if no one had ever said no to them before. With two incomes, families have more options than to just go wherever or do whatever your employer tells you to, and they haven’t all figured that out yet.

[ECB]

I made more than DH for about the last 14 years. he shifted roles recently he now makes a LITTLE more than me. But way back when he changed careers and I was making more, he said "I hope you always make more than me" - because he felt that means we're in a good spot financially!

[gt7301b]

I can't read the article and I refuse to give the WSJ any of my money.

I make more than my husband and he has always been supportive of me making more money because ultimately it helps our family.  When we got married we knew it was I would most likely make more money than him since I am an engineer and he is a teacher, so his income potential is limited if he doesn't want to go into admin.

We have a pretty good balance on a daily basis but it falls apart once a quarter or so when I have to travel for work.  If I was in a role that required more travel I could see how it would have an impact on our marriage.

[bears]

May 12, 2023 9:08:11 GMT -5 gt7301b said:

I make more than my husband and he has always been supportive of me making more money because ultimately it helps our family.  

When MH and I were dating, I asked him how he would feel if I made more than him and his response was, "Awesome! Then we would have more money!"

[mrshandy]

I've always made more H. I have a Masters degree so I would hope I would. It's never been an issue. More money is more money. LOL why would you not want more money?

For reference, H grew up in a more traditional house where his mom did all the household stuff and worked only when the kids were older as supplemental income. She got pregnant with H when she was 19 so she never had a chance to go to college.

Our house is definitely less traditional in that I make more money and H does most of the cooking. Funny how things turn out like that.

[wanderingback]

Any man who is up in his feelings about a woman making more than him these days gets a major side eye.

My partner was making more but the pandemic really fucked up things. Now I make more aa he’s slowly getting back in to projects "post pandemic."

I always made it clear when I was dating that I expect the man to cook and clean and be an equal household contributor since I would also be working.

Glad that the gap is closing!

[goldengirlz]

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but I think the issue is that plenty of men will say, when it’s all hypothetical, “Yes! It would be great if you outearned me!” But then the problem is that they don’t always want to do the work it takes for their partners to get there.

@@@

When we were dating, H used to joke that he would love to be a SAHD and let me make all the money. Now that we actually have a kid, I’m 100% confident that neither of us wants to be a SAHP. I make more than he does and when an opportunity came up to move overseas, he had absolutely no interest in giving up his job.

I’m also dead-serious about dividing the childcare 50/50. Like if I stay home with a sick kid one day, he stays home the next. That kind of thing. We each have days where we do the pick-ups and drop-offs so the other person has more time to work or attend networking events. And that seems to be where many men suddenly decide, actually, no, I like things exactly as they are.

[definitelyO]

@@

When we were married DH made more than me and also had significant more investment savings. I now make ~ 2x as much as he does and it's never even been a point of contention or disruptive discussion. I used to travel a bit and there also wasn't a question about parenting and involvement. I did used to get asked "who is watching DS while you travel?" - my response was always a blank stare - Um - his DAD. Why would I have children with a person who I didn't trust to be a parent? still makes me so annoyed. anyway - we also comingle finances and are proud of each other's accomplishments.

The willingness to support keeping women down and lower paid is just so frustrating.

[janegold]

Totally agree, goldengirlz. I outearn my H by over 3x. Outwardly, he doesn't have a problem with it and has never expressed feeling threatened. But a recurring issue in our relationship has been that he still - subconsciously, I think - operates under the assumption that his job is the family priority.

For example, he travels and works nights/weekends more than I do, and tends to just assume that I will accommodate my schedule accordingly. And I am usually able to do that, but not without some stress and career cost to me - and he takes that for granted. (We are working on it in therapy, it's getting better, etc. etc.)

[mrsslocombe]

My pay rate is about 25% higher than H, but he gets benefits, PTO, etc and I do not.

It doesn't bother him that I make more, especially given the trade-offs to basically being a freelancer.

But it was a lot easier for me to get to the point where I make more BECAUSE we don't have kids. I work in an industry that is extremely hostile to pregnancy and parenthood. No way would I be where I am if I had kids, unless H was the stay at home parent or we had childcare for 12+ hours a day.

[preppy]

This is encouraging. As I have continued to have career acceleration it’s been very hard to balance with DHs job and we recently made a decision to have him step back and take on a completely different totally 180 role that isn’t corporate since I was way out earning him and we needed one parent with more flexibility. Since he’s swapped I now make 3x what he makes and he’s taken on the majority of the home items and it’s so far been working really well. We are both more relaxed cause we aren’t stressing about how it all gets done and he’s so much happier being out of his Corp job that he hated and doesn’t care that I out earn him. It’s been lovely.

[kadams767]

May 12, 2023 11:08:04 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but I think the issue is that plenty of men will say, when it’s all hypothetical, “Yes! It would be great if you outearned me!” But then the problem is that they don’t always want to do the work it takes for their partners to get there.

@@@

When we were dating, H used to joke that he would love to be a SAHD and let me make all the money. Now that we actually have a kid, I’m 100% confident that neither of us wants to be a SAHP. I make more than he does and when an opportunity came up to move overseas, he had absolutely no interest in giving up his job.

I’m also dead-serious about dividing the childcare 50/50. Like if I stay home with a sick kid one day, he stays home the next. That kind of thing. We each have days where we do the pick-ups and drop-offs so the other person has more time to work or attend networking events. And that seems to be where many men suddenly decide, actually, no, I like things exactly as they are.

@@

Yea, this is a big part of it, IME.  We don't have kids, but I have always been the higher earner by a fairly significant amount, with a much higher income potential as well.  My husband is great and has always been very supportive and not had any issues with the income disparities, but we still experience situations where it is hard to support both of us working to climb the ladder.  It seems actually even harder to me to reconcile as a couple without kids, because on paper, it seems like we should both be able to be "career focused" or however we want to phrase it.  It's hard to say we need to prioritize the higher earner's career in favor of managing the household when the other spouse wants to work, but the reality is that keeping life running smoothly is hard as heck for everyone, kids or not.  I think people see our task division on the outside and think it's crazy that H had to take a lateral move with no more travel vs. his prior, high travel % position that would have kept him progressing more, but it was too much for both of us to focus on our jobs at the same time.  So now it's like, oh, you're WFH so you can be there for your dog and let the repair people in the house while your wife is gone 30% of the month, etc.  

Glad as all heck that DH could not care less, but I know the external judgment is still there to a degree.  I'll be happy to continue to see this gap narrowing.

[Velar Fricative]

I was outearning DH for a while but then I took a paycut to leave a super stressful job and now we make almost exactly the same (he was ahead for a little while too). We're basically just like "Yay we are adding more money to the collective household pot."

@@@

But, this does support what @villainv said above. His mom had five kids in eight years, but was never a SAHM beyond short maternity leaves even in the 70s and 80s - she worked part-time as a nurse when the kids were little and then full-time the rest of the time. So he's used to this from having a working mom himself plus having a dad who worked more standard hours and who did school pickup, activity runs and got dinner on the table many nights since his mom often worked nights.

[gt7301b]

May 12, 2023 11:08:04 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but I think the issue is that plenty of men will say, when it’s all hypothetical, “Yes! It would be great if you outearned me!” But then the problem is that they don’t always want to do the work it takes for their partners to get there.

@@@

When we were dating, H used to joke that he would love to be a SAHD and let me make all the money. Now that we actually have a kid, I’m 100% confident that neither of us wants to be a SAHP. I make more than he does and when an opportunity came up to move overseas, he had absolutely no interest in giving up his job.

I’m also dead-serious about dividing the childcare 50/50. Like if I stay home with a sick kid one day, he stays home the next. That kind of thing. We each have days where we do the pick-ups and drop-offs so the other person has more time to work or attend networking events. And that seems to be where many men suddenly decide, actually, no, I like things exactly as they are.

@@@

We are really good at the division of physical labor with child care.  I do drop off he does pick up, I cook he cleans, we rotate bath nights and so on.  Even with all of that I still pick up more of the mental load.  I am trying to figure out how to pass some of that back to him, but it is still a struggle.  Most of the time what happens is if I don't do it those things don't happen and then I feel guilty about it.

[pinkdutchtulips]

In my first marriage it was a HUGE issue that I eventually outearned him as his business dwindled to nothing and he gave it up making me the sole income. He felt completly emasculated by it as his 'role' as provider and leader was entirely usurped by me. He wanted me to be both the income AND the traditional wife .... If I didn't already resent him, that would have surely done it.

We divorced. I started dating again and I would always ask any guy I had more than a passing interest in these 2 questions thanks to Sheryl Sandberg 1- would you be supportive of my career and 2- would you be willing to pick up whatever kid/household slack that may happen in order for me to advance in my career. If he couldn't answer yes to both then he wasn't the guy for me. J answered yes to both

[agnes]

My mother was a the main/sole-breadwinner for much of my childhood. H was raised by a single mother. I think that might be part of why my out-earning him wasn't an issues for us in the past. It's gone back and forth where he earns more, then I earn more, and so-on.

We were also preparing for H to be a House Husband. He was for a few months and it was fantastic, just like it was years ago when he was forced into fun-employment. I loved it. He loved it. Long story short, an opportunity came up and now he makes more than double my salary. That's ok too. We have been able to do a lot of extra things for us and our family with that money.

[arielroux]

I make about 2x what FI does, but I’m also 10 years older than he is. We are fortunate to be high earners, and he still has many, many years of career growth ahead of him. There is going to be a point where he is the sole income and I have retired (hopefully sooner rather than later, lol). He has no issue with me bringing in more than he does, though sometimes he does feel steamrolled a bit if he doesn’t want to spend joint money on something due to cost and I reply with “ok, I’ll just pay for it!” I am trying to get better about that.

I cannot wait for the day that I can stop working, but we also can’t seem to decide what his income would need to be in order for me to voluntarily stay home pre-retirement age.

[gretchenindisguise]

I would love H to be a house husband.

We joke about it, but I don’t think I’ll ever learn enough to make it happen. A girl can dream.

[sent]

May 12, 2023 11:08:04 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but I think the issue is that plenty of men will say, when it’s all hypothetical, “Yes! It would be great if you outearned me!” But then the problem is that they don’t always want to do the work it takes for their partners to get there. 

On a similar note, I see resentment from a lot of women in my profession who have house husbands yet come home to none of the household stuff being done because he watched Netflix (or some equivalent leisurely activity) all day, day after day after day. Even though they agreed on expectations when she went to be the breadwinner. Initially I was surprised to read this when women would post it. But it seems to be a recurring theme so I guess the message isn't out there yet that men should be stepping up to run the household if the woman is going to be the breadwinner.

[agnes]

May 12, 2023 14:19:46 GMT -5 sent said:

May 12, 2023 11:08:04 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but I think the issue is that plenty of men will say, when it’s all hypothetical, “Yes! It would be great if you outearned me!” But then the problem is that they don’t always want to do the work it takes for their partners to get there. 

On a similar note, I see resentment from a lot of women in my profession who have house husbands yet come home to none of the household stuff being done because he watched Netflix (or some equivalent leisurely activity) all day, day after day after day. Even though they agreed on expectations when she went to be the breadwinner. Initially I was surprised to read this when women would post it. But it seems to be a recurring theme so I guess the message isn't out there yet that men should be stepping up to run the household if the woman is going to be the breadwinner.

honestly, this would likely be me if I were the STAH spouse. I’ve come to understand that I lack the motivation and focus (SELF-diagnosed ADHD inattentive type). H is extremely productive with and with out a job. I know that if I wasn’t working, I’d need to set a routine of SOMETHING (volunteering, school, etc) to continue to keep me active. I know myself pretty well now.

[bee20]

This is great to see. I have always outearned my partners and I sort of wonder if that's on purpose. I really dislike the idea of being "stuck" with someone and have focused on financial stability for myself over other goals. I also think I'd be really frustrated if I got "overruled" financially...the example above of "oh, if we don't want to pay for it I'll just cover it" from a partner would be really annoying to me.