Alcohol use at work

[litskispeciality]

I worked for a company that had beer Friday's...that were supposed to start around 3:30/4 PM toward EOB, drink A beer at your desk while you finished your work. This obviously was abused pretty hard. We had one or two employees who were rumored to not only drink on the job M - F, but "bragged" about keeping a pretty big bottle of booze in their desk. Both were eventually terminated for other reasons. *Company was a start up and HR and rules were pretty much like Who's Line is it Anyway. Company eventually got shut down by outside forces.

Based on your update, in your line of work I'd be quite concerned. I guess I'd have to give some benefit of the doubt, is this a weird one day/one off?, did they risk having a drink at lunch and it hit harder than they thought? However, it's not safe nor anywhere near ok in your field (or any job!) If you're not the manager I'd probably look in to policy how an employee is supposed to handle this, how you can make an annon. tip because it can effect a lot of people. If you're the manager of this employee, I think finding them help as discreetly as possible is a really good step, just make sure to document what you can that you're attempting to assist the employee to CYA. I'd also be concerned if this is dealing with work related stress as medical professionals deal with a lot and don't really have a place to vent due to HIPPA and such. Part of me wants to make sure the employee has access to counseling or another support system to deal with it rather than just be disciplined, or terminated and possible lose their license. That can certainly lead to a further spiral.

Ugh I'm sorry you're dealing with this!

Edit: OP I wonder if there are rehabs or counseling facilities that specialize in treating medical professional stress and related alcohol or substance abuse? I think someone trained in a high stress job is going to be more effective with treatment and future coping techniques, sobriety etc. understanding the nature of the job and the stressors both at work, and outside of work.

[wildrice]

Do you have a policy about this? That would be my first step on what to actually do.

I think it is situation dependent, but where I work our HR would probably assume alcoholism or that the person is in crisis and try to help with intervention before simply firing them. I think this would involve a frank conversation with the person about what's going on and what expectations are going forward, and then a plan. It would probably be something like not being allowed to come back to work until they've completed an appropriate intervention, and then closely monitoring their use for a specific period once they return (drug testing, breathalyzer, something along those lines). We would want to help them get this straightened out, especially if this is an employee who we knew to be otherwise reliable (i.e. I am not sure we'd go to this extent for someone who didn't have a proven track record yet). But it obviously puts us at great risk to have an employee working who is under the influence, so we'd have to be pretty explicit about what things are going to look like if they want to remain employed.

[circa1978]

When I was a reporter, I certainly filed stories under the influence. I'm in a creative field and some people do think they work better in altered states. You are not, so I think there is likely something else going on.

That said, my first month or so in higher ed, I saw a guy drinking from a flask in his car at 8 a.m., and I was like, WTF. And after 12 years in higher ed, I get the impulse.

[kath16]

are you 100 percent certain that it was alcohol, and not a medication that the person is on to treat an acute or chronic condition?

if you're not sure, i'd recommend a stern, but frank conversation about your concerns and the risk that they created, then go from there.

if it is absolutely alcohol related, there are a few courses of action you could take. i cannot remember if you are a private practice or associated with a larger employer -- if it's a larger employer, there are likely specific steps to take and it might not be as easy as firing them.

[joy]

Just so I understand: this is a normal workday, no happy hour/party, and at 3pm on a Wednesday, Karen is drunk and doing her job?

Not acceptable. Very concerning. This is a situation that HR needs to handle and not a manager alone.

Also, if this is in your profession, this is a serious serious problem.

[joy]

I’m really mouth agape at people saying this could be a one-off.

Work is a professional environment. This was not a happy hour or an office Christmas party. This was a work day where the employee is drunk. Even if they went to lunch and had one too many, then they need to take themselves home and not continue to perform their job duties. This is what a professional is expected to do. And if they do not have the mind to do that then I really have to question their judgment and if they have a problem.

And if this is a doctor or nurse? WHOO BOY. Malpractice level issues.

[shauni27]

PDQ

I work in a hospital and what we would do immediately is a fit for duty. We would do a drug and alcohol test right away if there is any question that the employee could be under the influence. Depending on the results of the tests, we would probably have the employee take a leave of absence (unpaid) and attend rehab and then submit to regular testing and surveillance in order to remain compliant.

[gretchenindisguise]

I think this should be taken seriously and a conversation with manager + HR is a good place to have the conversation.

During that conversation you can learn more about if its alcohol, something else, and what support they need to get help.

Showing up intoxicated is not ok, especially in your line of work. I’m pretty sure I would have been walked off the job in previous workplaces.

[mpm]

Jul 13, 2023 10:02:46 GMT -5 joy said:

I’m really mouth agape at people saying this could be a one-off.

Work is a professional environment. This was not a happy hour or an office Christmas party. This was a work day where the employee is drunk. Even if they went to lunch and had one too many, then they need to take themselves home and not continue to perform their job duties. This is what a professional is expected to do.
‘
And if this is a doctor or nurse? WHOO BOY. Malpractice level issues.

Let me tell you how the lawsuit would go if the manager shrugs “meh?” at this and later on the employee harms someone while under the influence at work.

wanderingback if you’re part of a larger organization there should be a policy for how to handle this. If you’re a tiny new organization and don’t have a policy for this yet, time to create one. Protecting your company from employees’ bad decisions really shouldn’t be subjective.

[fivechickens]

Working at a hospital I would be concerned. My dad is a Dr and alcoholic which got him in big trouble with one of the hospitals he was working at when he showed up drunk.

[AJL]

I'm hesitant to jump right to alcohol problem however I would be concerned that something was going on with this person that allowed them to use poor judgment in this case. However, I would suspect that something was up with them, especially if this is not something that happens at all. Getting drunk at work or going back to work inebriated is not typical behavior for most people. 

Are you someone close enough to them to have a conversation about it? 

[ECB]

If this was someone who I had worked with for a long enough time where this was noticeable and I hadn't seen this behavior before, then no, I wouldn't automatically assume alcohol problem. I'd assume something is going on that led to them drinking at work.  

[wildrice]

Jul 13, 2023 10:02:46 GMT -5 joy said:

I’m really mouth agape at people saying this could be a one-off.

Work is a professional environment. This was not a happy hour or an office Christmas party. This was a work day where the employee is drunk. Even if they went to lunch and had one too many, then they need to take themselves home and not continue to perform their job duties. This is what a professional is expected to do. And if they do not have the mind to do that then I really have to question their judgment and if they have a problem.

And if this is a doctor or nurse? WHOO BOY. Malpractice level issues.

Yes- even if it's a one off, it's completely unacceptable, especially in healthcare and especially if they are in a patient care position. Huge, huge risk to everyone involved. I am almost never on team "fire them immediately" but it absolutely needs to be addressed and a plan for prevention going forward is necessary.

[penguingrrl]

If you’re sure it’s alcohol I would be very concerned about anyone being under the influence of alcohol while at work and would likely assume it’s a sign of addiction. I would approach it from a place of concern as addiction is a really difficult disease, but also make sure they aren’t in a position to do their job while under the influence. I would talk to HR about what help is available to this person (what coverage you have for rehab if that’s necessary, whether they are FMLA eligible or what options can be given if they aren’t to allow them to seek medical treatment). Drinking midweek at work is stunningly concerning IMO and suggests a major issue with addiction.

At my former job alcohol was outright prohibited, and we were a private museum located inside a state park where alcohol is always forbidden without a special permit. Even during the fundraising events we hosted where beer was sold to the public, we were not allowed to partake. We also all had to drive to get to/from work, so there was the additional DUI concern given our location (no public transit available to this park as it was in a remote area). They had an issue with an employee drinking on the job and it led to his termination as he was putting the public at risk. It was really sad and everyone felt awful, but he refused help multiple times and was caught drinking onsite on more than one occasion and we couldn’t risk it.

[Tacocat]

Notify HR right away if they haven’t already been and they will walk thru next steps. If there is a drug and alcohol policy it’s likely already written out what HR, you and the employee will need to do next. We immediately send the employee for a drug and alcohol screen and most likely a leave of absence. If it comes back positive, they are referred to our EAP to meet with a counselor and they need to follow all recommendations before returning to work. If it involves inpatient or outpatient treatment, the employee must do that in order to keep their job. If the refuse then they will be terminated for failure to follow our drug and alcohol policy.

PDQ
When I was working at a previous job, it was discovered an employee was intoxicated during a meeting and he was sent home in a cab. He refused treatment so he was terminated.

[mcppalmbeach]

Editing because I didn’t explain myself well…this person may not be a habitual problem drinker/alcoholic, but this situation is problem drinking to me and is indicating something is not right. I can see exceptions…my birthday lunch last year I had a singular margarita and I was tipsy which is not like me at all. I guess if I had been going into work I would have been “drunk,” but even when I was working I didn’t drink at lunches for just this reason.

Yes, I think drunk at work is a problem drinker. To me one definition of a problem drinker is someone who is getting drunk at inappropriate times and with limited exceptions I don’t think it’s appropriate to be drunk at daytime work. My H’s work set up a fun hang out spot with an arcade game, putting green, foosball table, big tv and a keg. It’s a small company and they host company celebrations there and anyone is welcome to have a beer at any time. But getting drunk is different.

[meanie]

Given your update I would go to HR and would not touch this myself with a 10 foot pole.

We had a guy on my team years ago who would sleep at his desk, not a nap but like a deep sleep for hours complete with loud snoring. He told HR he had sleep apnea and we were told we couldn't do much about it.

[litskispeciality]

So my one off I more meant I had a drink or two at lunch and it hit me harder than I expected, but even as a non-medical professional I know I can't during my scheduled work shift period. In that case the employee should know better not to drink even at lunch, regardless of age. Even if they're a younger employee, any medical professional has to go through at least 10 months of training to touch a patient, and they should go over, and over why you can't use substances or alcohol on the job, or before work etc. It's also a common sense thing, and I assume part of your medical oath. After all that I take back my statement that there could ever be a one-off unless it was a company sponsored party where alcohol was served, but even then I would assume they'd wait until the practice closed, and STRONGLY encourage having a DD or using Uber etc. to get home.

As far as drug or alcohol testing, I'd be curious what the contract says?

I would hope a medical office would have a zero tolerance policy, and the right to test with appropriate suspicion without contract concerns. I further want to go down the rabbit hole of how this could effect a medical professional's career if they were terminated due to a documented drug or alcohol abuse on the job situation, but I don't know enough about HR to know what would be reported.

[CrazyLucky]

I have dealt with this as a manager. There was a little closet off of the unisex bathroom. It had the valves for the water shutoff. One time a contractor was in there and found a bunch of small alcohol bottles. I work at a chemical plant and that is clearly against policy, for good reason. They set up a camera (in the closet, there was no visibility whatsoever to the actual bathroom) and caught the person next time they did it. They were fired immediately. There's no wiggle room in the policy of all the chemical plants I've worked at. If you are drinking on the job, you no longer have a job.

[pixy0stix]

At my previous public sector jobs, this would get you fired. Especially my city gov job. I absolutely know this as a fact, because I witnessed it happen. One day someone was there, the next day they were gone. All times after being at work drunk. This is anecdotal, but in 100% of those cases the people definitely exhibited signs of a drinking problem before the firing.

Surprisingly, it took longer to fire the person who was on meth that was extremely disruptive in the office. The excuse they used to fire her was that she was arrested, and did not inform her manager that she had been arrested.

[mysteriouswife]

In your line of work, problem.

In my line of work, typical. We have a lot of client meetings where drinking isn’t uncommon. Beer is on tap at the corporate office. I still feel I have a few functional alcoholics in my organization.

[raleighnc]

Jul 13, 2023 9:18:27 GMT -5 erbear said:

If you came drunk to my work (teacher), you'd probably be fired and I assume the same might be true of medical professionals. Being impaired at my job puts children at risk.

As a manager though, I think I'd be really concerned and try to help the person.

At least in NJ, you would almost definitely lose your job and probably your teaching license - the board of Ed has to report all discontinuation of employees to the state board and whether the circumstances include "conduct unbecoming a teacher". You could be charged with public intoxication, or child neglect if the alcohol was within reach of children (in your water bottle or purse). And there's a mandatory reporting when a teacher is charged with a DUI or convicted. And administrators and school boards can be punished for not reporting. I don't know if it's as broad in other states, but NJ is hardcore.

[wanderingback]

I’m not going to say too much but thankfully this isn’t something I have to deal directly with (nor was this with someone who is clinical/deals with patients), but it did come up recently where I am and my first thought was adding another reason to why I don’t want to be a supervisor anymore!

It seems the person is not fired and I hope they’re ok.

[dirtyred]

Jul 13, 2023 10:06:08 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

PDQ

I, unfortunately, had to deal with impaired employees on more than one occasion, and this is exactly the procedure.

[waverly]

dirtyred, she said PDQ.

My first step would be to talk to HR and ask them to do that fit for duty assessment. I think removing an intoxicated person from practicing medicine right away would be the first step. Then yes you can wonder if it is a one off or alcohol addiction. I would lean towards an addiction but HR should be handling it.

[loira]

Jul 13, 2023 9:47:01 GMT -5 litskispeciality said:

I worked for a company that had beer Friday's...that were supposed to start around 3:30/4 PM toward EOB, drink A beer at your desk while you finished your work. This obviously was abused pretty hard. We had one or two employees who were rumored to not only drink on the job M - F, but "bragged" about keeping a pretty big bottle of booze in their desk. Both were eventually terminated for other reasons. *Company was a start up and HR and rules were pretty much like Who's Line is it Anyway. Company eventually got shut down by outside forces.

I feel this so hard. I also worked for a start-up that had a "beer trolley" that would make the rounds starting at about 2:30pm every Friday. It was definitely abused and used as an excuse to faff off the rest of the day. I distinctly remember having a deadline on Monday that I wanted to meet and needing to explain to my (20 something male) colleagues that no, I wasn't interested in their game of paper-ball catch, and that they were bothering me and I needed to work. I was also one of only 3 women and, at 30 years old, one of the oldest employees. The company had one person who did "HR" off the side of their desk because they were also the admin and payroll. I will never work for another start-up.

[litskispeciality]

loira, this was also the time when Zappos added (a?) ping pong table(s) to their break room, and someone wrote and article or a book or whatever about how it increased employee satisfaction 80000%, so this start up put a ping pong table in the super nice kitchen. My team and I were working 12 hour days, when I had an hour + commute every day, while a lot of (mostly male) employees who made just a few thousand more than me, would play game after effing game of ping pong. Meanwhile management didn't understand why our tiny team couldn't keep up and had to work all those hours, sitting on hold most of the time, while these other folks were "busy". I also worked at a big for-profit diploma mill that had a ping pong table in the cube area and it was soooooo distracting. Anyway nothing to do with this thread, but stuff like that made me want to drink on the job.

OP I wish you luck with this, and hope there is a good resolution that keeps you out of it as much as possible.

[dirtyred]

Jul 13, 2023 13:34:21 GMT -5 waverly said:

dirtyred, she said PDQ.

My first step would be to talk to HR and ask them to do that fit for duty assessment. I think removing an intoxicated person from practicing medicine right away would be the first step. Then yes you can wonder if it is a one off or alcohol addiction. I would lean towards an addiction but HR should be handling it.

Sorry. It's fixed.

[Pilsy]

Plot twist: wanderingback IS the employee.



All kidding aside, I'm sorry. Oof. I take it you are this person's manager, and this is a very challenging situation. I hope 1) there is a policy to guide you through what to do now, 2) no patients were in harm's way, and 3) this employee gets some help. 

[shauni27]

Jul 13, 2023 13:19:41 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Jul 13, 2023 10:06:08 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

PDQ

I, unfortunately, had to deal with impaired employees on more than one occasion, and this is exactly the procedure.

Literally daily. But that includes mental health concerns too. Anyone acting out of it.