@@@ Teen Who Used Pills to End Pregnancy Gets 90 Days inJail

[Saudade]

I'm confused why other people think they can decide what another person does with their body?

That's why we can't discuss it. Because it's no one's business what someone does....it's their choice and they need to be allowed to make that decision and be allowed to safely complete said decision.

[mcsangel2]

Jul 22, 2023 16:07:50 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 22, 2023 14:34:43 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I explicitly stated that my comment that I’m only talking about cases where a pregnancy is just unwanted, and there is no threat to the mother.

I don’t support a healthy mother terminating a healthy pregnancy at 30 weeks. Shrug. We can disagree on that.

Shrug? Who are you, LucyHoneychurch?

[gemini79]

Jul 22, 2023 17:18:54 GMT -5 scout8 said:

I don't understand why we can't have this discussion. According to the Pew Research Center, only 19% of people think that abortion should be allowed in all cases with no exceptions. So it's a pretty low percentage. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about late term abortion outside of health of mother or abnormalities not compatible with life. I understand that a late term abortion just because is very rare, but in those cases, why do you (general you) feel it is ok? Is there ever a time that it isn't ok? I'm not looking to argue here because I really don't know how I feel. I genuinely would like to hear perspectives and don't understand why we can't have a real discussion about it.

I'm not okay with ascribing a judgment that the woman in this case enacted a 30 week abortion "just because." I think that's what the pp is trying to say happened and idk if that's what you are trying to say, but..idk.
I haven't read anything at all that suggests at what her reasons were, so saying that is a MASSIVE assumption that is gross to me especially given the way things have gone and how it's now more difficult to obtain women's health care.

Personally, I'm not willing to talk about the idea right now or here bc its speculation.

Edited to reflect appropriate terms

[scout8]

Jul 22, 2023 18:07:44 GMT -5 gemini79 said:

Jul 22, 2023 17:18:54 GMT -5 scout8 said:

I don't understand why we can't have this discussion. According to the Pew Research Center, only 19% of people think that abortion should be allowed in all cases with no exceptions. So it's a pretty low percentage. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about late term abortion outside of health of mother or abnormalities not compatible with life. I understand that a late term abortion just because is very rare, but in those cases, why do you (general you) feel it is ok? Is there ever a time that it isn't ok? I'm not looking to argue here because I really don't know how I feel. I genuinely would like to hear perspectives and don't understand why we can't have a real discussion about it.

I'm not okay with ascribing a judgment that the woman in this case enacted a late term abortion "just because." I think that's what the pp is trying to say happened and idk if that's what you are trying to say, but..idk.
I haven't read anything at all that suggests at what her reasons were, so saying that is a MASSIVE assumption that is gross to me especially given the way things have gone and how it's now more difficult to obtain women's health care.

Personally, I'm not willing to talk about the idea right now or here bc its speculation.

I don't know what happened in this specific case so definitely no judgment there. My question was a general question, not related to the article. Maybe I should have started a new thread. 

[redheadbaker]

Jul 22, 2023 17:18:54 GMT -5 scout8 said:

I don't understand why we can't have this discussion. According to the Pew Research Center, only 19% of people think that abortion should be allowed in all cases with no exceptions. So it's a pretty low percentage. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about late term abortion outside of health of mother or abnormalities not compatible with life. I understand that a late term abortion just because is very rare, but in those cases, why do you (general you) feel it is ok? Is there ever a time that it isn't ok? I'm not looking to argue here because I really don't know how I feel. I genuinely would like to hear perspectives and don't understand why we can't have a real discussion about it.

Because it's not my body. Not my place to tell them what they can or can't do. 

[Patsy Baloney]

I want to request that we stop using the fictional “late term abortion” description.

www.parents.com/pregnancy/my-body/pregnancy-health/theres-no-such-thing-as-late-term-abortion-here-are-the-facts/

www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-late-term-abortion

[jobae1234]

Jul 22, 2023 18:00:02 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Jul 22, 2023 16:07:50 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

I explicitly stated that my comment that I’m only talking about cases where a pregnancy is just unwanted, and there is no threat to the mother.

I don’t support a healthy mother terminating a healthy pregnancy at 30 weeks. Shrug. We can disagree on that.

Shrug? Who are you, LucyHoneychurch?

I mean, just so it’s on the record, no. And since I’ve been here since The Nest, I’ll point out that I don’t talk like her. Shrug meaning I feel absolutely nothing about you disagreeing with me, no matter how aggressive you get about trying to shut me down. You won’t make me feel like an idiot and you won’t make me feel shame. People WHO SUPPORT ABORTION actually are allowed to disagree on where we should draw the line with abortion.

And frankly I don’t think supporting a 30 week termination without a medical reason does anything for our cause except push the other side to double down on a total ban. Both are pretty extreme.

[Patsy Baloney]

Why isn’t unwanted pregnancy reason enough?

ETA: I feel like the argument/opinion we’re getting close to here is that an abortion in the 3rd trimester is infanticide. It is not.

[redheadbaker]

Jul 22, 2023 20:01:08 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 22, 2023 18:00:02 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Shrug? Who are you, LucyHoneychurch?

I mean, just so it’s on the record, no. And since I’ve been here since The Nest, I’ll point out that I don’t talk like her. Shrug meaning I feel absolutely nothing about you disagreeing with me, no matter how aggressive you get about trying to shut me down. You won’t make me feel like an idiot and you won’t make me feel shame. People WHO SUPPORT ABORTION actually are allowed to disagree on where we should draw the line with abortion.

And frankly I don’t think supporting a 30 week termination without a medical reason does anything for our cause except push the other side to double down on a total ban. Both are pretty extreme.

Why do you feel this is so important to create a policy on? The number of women who have a third-trimester abortion of a healthy baby is probably smaller than the number of women who have a third-trimester abortion for medical reasons. 

Sounds to me like you've fallen for the GOP misinformation campaign that women are having abortions up until labor and delivery. 

[wanderingback]

Please don’t use the term late term abortion. Another made up term from the forced birthers handbook. It’s not a medical definition. You can say 1st trimester, 2nd trimester or 3rd trimester abortion.

[wanderingback]

The reason I believe in abortion without restrictions is because I believe in bodily autonomy of people, that includes a pregnant person. It’s really that simple. A fetus isn’t a person that has the right or obligation of bodily autonomy.

[gemini79]

Jul 22, 2023 20:01:08 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 22, 2023 18:00:02 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Shrug? Who are you, LucyHoneychurch?

I mean, just so it’s on the record, no. And since I’ve been here since The Nest, I’ll point out that I don’t talk like her. Shrug meaning I feel absolutely nothing about you disagreeing with me, no matter how aggressive you get about trying to shut me down. You won’t make me feel like an idiot and you won’t make me feel shame. People WHO SUPPORT ABORTION actually are allowed to disagree on where we should draw the line with abortion.

And frankly I don’t think supporting a 30 week termination without a medical reason does anything for our cause except push the other side to double down on a total ban. Both are pretty extreme.

If this case demonstrates anything, it's that restricting women from abortion doesnt stop them from seeking and obtaining one. Their *reason* is their own, but I do truly wonder what a world would look like where we trusted women that their ability TO reason was sound instead of imposing our own ideas onto them, as you are here.

Restricting their access only makes them seek secret and unsafe means like this woman did..ones that put her physical and emotional well being at high risk.

[penguingrrl]

Jul 22, 2023 16:07:50 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 22, 2023 14:34:43 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

As someone who developed preeclampsia during all three of my (very wanted) pregnancies, you can fuck right off with this statement. Pregnancy can be deadly, and even if not deadly is really hard on the woman. Trivializing a few more months of her life is horrific. 

As is trivializing the choice to make an adoption plan. Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not an alternative to abortion.

I explicitly stated that my comment that I’m only talking about cases where a pregnancy is just unwanted, and there is no threat to the mother.

I don’t support a healthy mother terminating a healthy pregnancy at 30 weeks. Shrug. We can disagree on that.

And I don’t agree with laws telling women what they can or can’t do with their bodies. End of story.

[sofamonkey]

Pro choice means pro choice. Women can CHOOSE to terminate the pregnancy their body is carrying. That’s, like, the end of the discussion.

It is not pro choice unless a list of criteria by random people is met. It is not having a discussion about it with anyone not carrying that specific pregnancy. It is not making someone making what is already a difficult and heartbreaking decision discuss it with literally anyone they don’t want to discuss it with. It is not using stories “you’ve heard” or interjected feelings to justify restricting someone else’s bodily autonomy.

Making someone live through extra trauma by justifying a heartbreaking decision to satisfy your self of morals or code of ethics is fucked up. You deciding that you would “never be able to make that choice” so no one else can is some self righteous bullshit. And I hope to fucking Lucifer that all the moral high ground assholes never are actually faced with making the at choice. Not only is it difficult to make, but it is also difficult to go through with, even if it is the best choice to make. And it will likely haunt you for eternity. So, no, we can’t discuss it. All you want is an opening to impose yourself on others.

Pro choice means pro choice. Fin.

[sonrisa]

Jul 23, 2023 1:34:51 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

 And it will likely haunt you for eternity. 

Or it might not. And that is okay.

[wanderingback]

Jul 23, 2023 3:06:10 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jul 23, 2023 1:34:51 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

 And it will likely haunt you for eternity. 

Or it might not. And that is okay.

Yeah there’s a lot of assumptions being made in this post. That always happens in these threads.

There are some great abortion storytelling orgs that center people who have had abortions and they share their stories.
We testify, shout your abortion and 2 plus abortions are all great orgs to check out and support.

[VillainV]

There are a lot of reasons I can think of for someone to seek an abortion in the third trimester. But it’s because of all of the reasons I CAN’T think of that I believe those abortions should be available.

[wildrice]

Jul 23, 2023 3:06:10 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jul 23, 2023 1:34:51 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

 And it will likely haunt you for eternity. 

Or it might not. And that is okay.

Yup. I am with the rest of sofamonkey 's post but it is not heartbreaking or haunting for everyone, especially (IMO) if you are terminating just because you don't want a baby and not for medical reasons. For me, the most traumatic part of having an abortion was because of the stigma - I felt like I should feel bad about or like I was doing something controversial. I have never for a second felt sad that I didn't keep it. 

I do think it's ok not to feel totally comfortable with the idea of third tri abortion while still supporting a person's right to make that choice for themselves. That's one thing I think people often miss about rights - we don't have to personally agree with or understand what people do with them, but it's important that people have them. 

We also don't know if she did end up terminating for medical reasons. Unfortunately, her ability to do so for her own or the fetus's health has been removed so it's possible she was in a huge medical crisis and this was the only way she could come out of this ok. I think doing a medical abortion with a fetus that size sounds very dangerous (but also hey - I'm not a doctor I too am speculating), so it shouldn't have been her only option. 

[wanderingback]

Jul 23, 2023 3:06:10 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jul 23, 2023 1:34:51 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

 And it will likely haunt you for eternity. 

Or it might not. And that is okay.

The number one feeling after an abortion based on research is relief. I have patients who laugh and joke during their abortions. Also, patients who feel bad they don’t feel bad or didn’t have a hard time deciding to have an abortion. I tell them anything they’re feeling is ok and it doesn’t have to be a hard decision for you and that’s ok.
If I get pregnant again I’m planning to have an abortion and I know many people who think similarly and it’s not a haunting decision.

[wanderingback]

Also, trans and non binary people have abortions.
In fact it’s even more important to remember this with our language because trans and non binary people are more likely to be discriminated against so we shouldn’t add extra stigma when talking about abortion and not including them.

[basilosaurus]

I don't know if it's just me being me, as I'm very vocal about my views and used to volunteer at PP regularly, but people regularly share they've had abortions, shrug, moving on. Hey, let's go get some lunch. It's just not really an issue for them. The only person who waited awhile it's because after many losses, she didn't want to disclose that she was even pregnant again let alone tell others the termination of twins.

I'd absolutely have an abortion and not feel the slightest regret. There's a reason I know about women on web sending pills to restrictive countries.

I still have questions about gestational age and the pills. I thought they just didn't work at that stage. It's NE, so they very possibly could have scared and strong armed her into taking the deal. That's the way that far too many accept plea bargains just generally. And if she's admitted to taking the pills, even if no one can prove that's the cause, trying such a case in NE will probably have people like our very own troll. I'm not sure I'd take my chances on that, and I'm a vocal educated adult

[wanderingback]

Jul 23, 2023 9:21:06 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I don't know if it's just me being me, as I'm very vocal about my views and used to volunteer at PP regularly, but people regularly share they've had abortions, shrug, moving on. Hey, let's go get some lunch. It's just not really an issue for them. The only person who waited awhile it's because after many losses, she didn't want to disclose that she was even pregnant again let alone tell others the termination of twins.

I'd absolutely have an abortion and not feel the slightest regret. There's a reason I know about women on web sending pills to restrictive countries.

I still have questions about gestational age and the pills. I thought they just didn't work at that stage. It's NE, so they very possibly could have scared and strong armed her into taking the deal. That's the way that far too many accept plea bargains just generally. And if she's admitted to taking the pills, even if no one can prove that's the cause, trying such a case in NE will probably have people like our very own troll. I'm not sure I'd take my chances on that, and I'm a vocal educated adult

Mifepristone and misoprostol work in all trimesters of pregnancy. Misoprostol has many uses including for abortion care, for induction of labor and for hemorrhaging.

[basilosaurus]

Jul 23, 2023 9:25:07 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jul 23, 2023 9:21:06 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I don't know if it's just me being me, as I'm very vocal about my views and used to volunteer at PP regularly, but people regularly share they've had abortions, shrug, moving on. Hey, let's go get some lunch. It's just not really an issue for them. The only person who waited awhile it's because after many losses, she didn't want to disclose that she was even pregnant again let alone tell others the termination of twins.

I'd absolutely have an abortion and not feel the slightest regret. There's a reason I know about women on web sending pills to restrictive countries.

I still have questions about gestational age and the pills. I thought they just didn't work at that stage. It's NE, so they very possibly could have scared and strong armed her into taking the deal. That's the way that far too many accept plea bargains just generally. And if she's admitted to taking the pills, even if no one can prove that's the cause, trying such a case in NE will probably have people like our very own troll. I'm not sure I'd take my chances on that, and I'm a vocal educated adult

Mifepristone and misoprostol work in all trimesters of pregnancy. Misoprostol has many uses including for abortion care, for induction of labor and for hemorrhaging.

Thank you. I knew about one being used for cervical ripening in both abortion and induction, but I also distinctly recall an a&p prof saying it won't terminate past 9 weeks, and at length described why, which is clearly wrong, but a first trimester date stuck with me.

That prof was also wrong in other important ways.

I guess I thought, if I thought at all, it could cause prematurity but not termination

[sofamonkey]

Jul 23, 2023 3:06:10 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jul 23, 2023 1:34:51 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

 And it will likely haunt you for eternity. 

Or it might not. And that is okay.

Yup, absolutely. That’s why I said might.

I’ve unfortunately been the recipient of over a dozen terminations. Some choice, many things beyond my control due to RPL. The things that haunt me are weird tidbits, not the termination themselves.

TW - termination loss discussion

Once, I had a loss, what they called a missed miscarriage. I had to have a dnc, as my body clearly thought it was still pregnant, but I wasn’t. However, the procedure was incomplete, and some parts of the pregnancy were retained. I was very ill for the weekend, high fever, vomiting, etc, until basically my mom drove me there and insisted they examine me because what I was saying was true. And sure enough, they had to do a second procedure. All that was really tough, and very unusual.

However, I’ve had providers that I can only describe as what I imagine wandering would be like, and the whole process was very nice, calm, and not super memorable beyond my feeling of true care, and appreciation.

I’ve had other procedures that were fine, but the staff leading to the process were horrid. After filling out my life story for my medical history, getting comments on the sheer number of losses because they hadn’t seen that high of a number before was heartbreaking, humiliating, and sucked so much.

And when I lost my twins, everything was fine. I just missed having them, and get very sad around that time - both finding out we were having them, and around when they would have been born. ETA - my loss for this pregnancy was about 21 weeks.

So, there isn’t a set way to feel. You may just feel relieved because you’re in control of your life. And while all the different things happened to me, no one ever questioned my choices, and I had full access to care. That’s what all people should have. Access to the care they need for their bodies, whatever their choices are.

[bronxgirl]

sofamonkey, I feel weird "liking' your post, so I'm going to send you hugs instead. I'm sorry you've been through all that and thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

[basilosaurus]

Thank you sofa monkey.

A friend recently shared similar and was attacked. Or, rather, she was attacked for her many losses because those were justifiable (in her friends view) and her veterans take on Congress being awful make her a killer. She disclosed all her losses as publicly a Facebook is which I know hurt.

I went in, opposing this terrible person's black white view. I worried she wouldn't want that. 2 minutes later I got a message thanking me. Even in "justifiable" situations people are afraid to about to a procedure they don't to. Because of stigma.

[goldengirlz]

Jul 22, 2023 17:18:54 GMT -5 scout8 said:

I don't understand why we can't have this discussion. According to the Pew Research Center, only 19% of people think that abortion should be allowed in all cases with no exceptions. So it's a pretty low percentage. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about late term abortion outside of health of mother or abnormalities not compatible with life. I understand that a late term abortion just because is very rare, but in those cases, why do you (general you) feel it is ok? Is there ever a time that it isn't ok? I'm not looking to argue here because I really don't know how I feel. I genuinely would like to hear perspectives and don't understand why we can't have a real discussion about it.

How would you define “just because?” What is a “just because” abortion?

Framing it that way is very loaded. You make it sound like there are pregnant people out there who wake up one morning in their second or third trimester and go, “You know what might be fun today? An abortion!”

My opinion is that we shouldn’t try to legislate based on squishy parameters like “judging what’s in someone’s heart.”

So here’s what the medical community says. A “full-term” pregnancy is 39 weeks, while “early term” is 37-39 weeks. A “late-term” pregnancy is 41 weeks and beyond. (Which is why, as others have pointed out, “late term abortion” is not a thing.)

Medicine is amazing and the line of viability keeps shifting. I do think reasonable people can debate how much advances in neonatology should impact how we think about “viability” from a legal perspective. But that doesn’t change how I would answer your question. Legislation should not be based on boogeymen like the “just because” abortion. Not being able to get an abortion when you need one is a far bigger public health concern to me than the straw man argument of someone making reproductive decisions based on callousness. The latter does not keep me up at night in the slightest. The former is happening every single day in this country, and pregnant people are dying because of it.

[pinkplasticdoll]

This thread is making me twitch especially given the threat to individuals seeking abortions, those assisting individuals seeking abortions and providers. This thread is giving me a alot of "I am pro choice until I need an abortion and then suddenly abortions are bad" vibes, you never know when you might find yourself in need of a procedure. Working a helpline at an abortion fund I can tell you that the 3rd trimester abortion calls were hard for a lot of reasons but many of the callers were distraught for reasons leading them to the decision.

[bronxgirl]

Jul 23, 2023 18:59:34 GMT -5 pinkplasticdoll said:

This thread is making me twitch especially given the threat to individuals seeking abortions, those assisting individuals seeking abortions and providers. This thread is giving me a alot of "I slam pro choice until I need an abortion and then suddenly abortions are bad" vibes, you never know when you might find yourself in need of a procedure. Working a helpline at an abortion fund I can tell you that the 3rd trimester abortion calls were hard for a lot of reasons but many of the callers were distraught for reasons leading them to the decision.

100%   And I would also add to that that no one knows for sure what they would actually do if they find themselves in the situation of needing an abortion until you are actually in that situation. It's easy to pontificate about what you think you might do, but you really don't know. 

[goldengirlz]

Jul 22, 2023 7:46:34 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 21, 2023 22:10:52 GMT -5 clairebear said:

She was 17 when she had the abortion and age of consent is 16 in Nebraska so yes. I feel like a lot of details are missing from this story. I don't think she should have been charged. The article mentions she took the pills around 30 weeks to induce an abortion. I don't know how I feel about an abortion on what I assume was a healthy, viable 30 week fetus. I hate that our laws failed her and she got to the point of 30 weeks and felt like that was her only option. 

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s safe to assume she wanted to abort sooner, unless she was one of those teens who didn’t know she was pregnant. And I wish she could have aborted sooner. But terminating at 30 weeks isn’t great. The pregnancy is almost done, and a 30 weeker is viable to live outside the womb which changes how I feel. You’re delivering either way, so hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point. That would have to be better than delivering at home, burning the fetus in a fire, and burying it three separate times. I also think her mother failed her big time in all this.

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

I do think that liberal women who support abortion rights should be able to have these kinds of conversations without attacking each other. We can’t let the fact that the other side thinks all abortion is wrong, trick us into doubling down that all abortion is right, and any termination of a pregnancy at any point before spontaneous labor is allowable. I mean I guess people can think that if they want to. I deeply feel for this woman that she was put in the situation she was in, but I think she made the wrong choice.

You contradict yourself a bit. You capitalized LATE in pregnancy, but theoretically babies as young as 22 weeks gestation have been able to survive. I’m not sure I’d advocate for the slippery slope of trying to align abortion access with what’s theoretically possible from a medical perspective.

In the majority of cases, a baby born at 30 weeks gestation has a high chance of survival only if — if — they get NICU-level care. That’s totally different from a baby that’s close to full-term at 38 weeks — a gulf of difference.