@@@ Teen Who Used Pills to End Pregnancy Gets 90 Days inJail

[cap]

Jul 23, 2023 19:43:42 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jul 22, 2023 7:46:34 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s safe to assume she wanted to abort sooner, unless she was one of those teens who didn’t know she was pregnant. And I wish she could have aborted sooner. But terminating at 30 weeks isn’t great. The pregnancy is almost done, and a 30 weeker is viable to live outside the womb which changes how I feel. You’re delivering either way, so hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point. That would have to be better than delivering at home, burning the fetus in a fire, and burying it three separate times. I also think her mother failed her big time in all this.

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

I do think that liberal women who support abortion rights should be able to have these kinds of conversations without attacking each other. We can’t let the fact that the other side thinks all abortion is wrong, trick us into doubling down that all abortion is right, and any termination of a pregnancy at any point before spontaneous labor is allowable. I mean I guess people can think that if they want to. I deeply feel for this woman that she was put in the situation she was in, but I think she made the wrong choice.

You contradict yourself a bit. You capitalized LATE in pregnancy, but theoretically babies as young as 22 weeks gestation have been able to survive. I’m not sure I’d advocate for the slippery slope of trying to align abortion access with what’s theoretically possible from a medical perspective.

In the majority of cases, a baby born at 30 weeks gestation has a high chance of survival only if — if — they get NICU-level care. That’s totally different from a baby that’s close to full-term at 38 weeks — a gulf of difference.

My thoughts were also going down the road of the necessary medical care for a baby delivered at 30 weeks. And then who is going to pay for that care? Whose insurance will be billed? It seems like in this type of a situation, it's pretty unlikely adoptive parents would be lined up. 

And plus also, when it may seem like it's not that much longer from 30 weeks to 40 weeks, that's still 2.5 months, which is not a short amount of time. And I felt pretty damn terrible those last 10 weeks; they were by far the hardest weeks of my pregnancies. 

At any rate, I also don't think there should be any limits of any sort on abortion and what other people do with their bodies is none of my business. 

[wanderingback]

Jul 23, 2023 15:21:01 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jul 22, 2023 17:18:54 GMT -5 scout8 said:

I don't understand why we can't have this discussion. According to the Pew Research Center, only 19% of people think that abortion should be allowed in all cases with no exceptions. So it's a pretty low percentage. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about late term abortion outside of health of mother or abnormalities not compatible with life. I understand that a late term abortion just because is very rare, but in those cases, why do you (general you) feel it is ok? Is there ever a time that it isn't ok? I'm not looking to argue here because I really don't know how I feel. I genuinely would like to hear perspectives and don't understand why we can't have a real discussion about it.

You make it sound like there are pregnant people out there who wake up one morning in their second or third trimester and go, “You know what might be fun today? An abortion!”

I would once again ask that we not add to the stigma of abortion care. There are indeed people who wake up after 14 weeks of pregnancy and make the decision easily to have an abortion. It's not just those in the first trimester of pregnancy that make the decision easily. I refrain from telling people's individual stories because they're not my place to share, but there are indeed people who "just wake up and make the decision one morning."

[goldengirlz]

Jul 23, 2023 20:30:10 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jul 23, 2023 15:21:01 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

You make it sound like there are pregnant people out there who wake up one morning in their second or third trimester and go, “You know what might be fun today? An abortion!”

I would once again ask that we not add to the stigma of abortion care. There are indeed people who wake up after 14 weeks of pregnancy and make the decision easily to have an abortion. It's not just those in the first trimester of pregnancy that make the decision easily. I refrain from telling people's individual stories because they're not my place to share, but there are indeed people who "just wake up and make the decision one morning."

Point taken. I appreciate you keeping us on track.

The reason I found the use of the term “just because” dismissive is because it read like we can’t trust pregnant people to know their own minds and make the best decisions for themselves. A decision can be quick and easy and still made in a thoughtful way.

Or not. 🤷‍♀️ These are all squishy concepts at the end of the day, and why I said they’d be a terrible basis for legislation. The bottom line is no one wins when we force people to give birth when they don’t want to, even if people like PP find their motives distasteful.

[wawa]

Jul 22, 2023 8:45:01 GMT -5 TR said:

mpm - in college I took a philosophy class called "Killing vs Letting Die" and it was all about the nuances of those two scenarios and it feels like that's where people's feelings start changing on this topic.

I think that's probably true, but that's because people have bought into the anti-choice rhetoric that abortion is "killing babies" when really it's "choosing not to continue to house a fetus inside me."  

I also took a college philosophy class where we talked about abortion (it was called "Contemporary Moral Issues"  We also covered affirmative action, welfare and some other odds and ends...it was spicy!) and a reading that stuck with me ever since was an essay about a thought experiment called "the violinist" which is a 50+ year old classic on the topic. 

If anybody didn't have the benefit of college philosophy class naval gazing on these topics I give you a link: spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

There are variations to cover lack of due care, knowledge, consent, etc etc etc and they all ultimately come back to the fact that it honestly DOESN'T MATTER if a fetus is alive or a person or a human or anything else....it's still a person's choice to decide who uses their body and how.  Maybe it sounds cold, but so does refusing to donate a kidney to save your 5 year old, and nobody would say a parent should be prosecuted for that.

[TR]

Jul 24, 2023 11:15:06 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jul 22, 2023 8:45:01 GMT -5 TR said:

mpm - in college I took a philosophy class called "Killing vs Letting Die" and it was all about the nuances of those two scenarios and it feels like that's where people's feelings start changing on this topic.

I think that's probably true, but that's because people have bought into the anti-choice rhetoric that abortion is "killing babies" when really it's "choosing not to continue to house a fetus inside me."  

I also took a college philosophy class where we talked about abortion (it was called "Contemporary Moral Issues"  We also covered affirmative action, welfare and some other odds and ends...it was spicy!) and a reading that stuck with me ever since was an essay about a thought experiment called "the violinist" which is a 50+ year old classic on the topic. 

If anybody didn't have the benefit of college philosophy class naval gazing on these topics I give you a link: spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

There are variations to cover lack of due care, knowledge, consent, etc etc etc and they all ultimately come back to the fact that it honestly DOESN'T MATTER if a fetus is alive or a person or a human or anything else....it's still a person's choice to decide who uses their body and how.  Maybe it sounds cold, but so does refusing to donate a kidney to save your 5 year old, and nobody would say a parent should be prosecuted for that.

Oh yes, of course (to the first bolded). But to the second bolded, that's my theory on why the difference between the two situations among that like-minded group. And I also understand and apologize if my musing on this in a purely intellectual way isn't necessary in this thread, but the cognitive dissonance around so many social issues fascinates me.

And we also discussed the violinist scenario!

[wawa]

Jul 24, 2023 11:21:48 GMT -5 TR said:

Jul 24, 2023 11:15:06 GMT -5 wawa said:

I think that's probably true, but that's because people have bought into the anti-choice rhetoric that abortion is "killing babies" when really it's "choosing not to continue to house a fetus inside me."  

I also took a college philosophy class where we talked about abortion (it was called "Contemporary Moral Issues"  We also covered affirmative action, welfare and some other odds and ends...it was spicy!) and a reading that stuck with me ever since was an essay about a thought experiment called "the violinist" which is a 50+ year old classic on the topic. 

If anybody didn't have the benefit of college philosophy class naval gazing on these topics I give you a link: spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

There are variations to cover lack of due care, knowledge, consent, etc etc etc and they all ultimately come back to the fact that it honestly DOESN'T MATTER if a fetus is alive or a person or a human or anything else....it's still a person's choice to decide who uses their body and how.  Maybe it sounds cold, but so does refusing to donate a kidney to save your 5 year old, and nobody would say a parent should be prosecuted for that.

Oh yes, of course (to the first bolded). But to the second bolded, that's my theory on why the difference between the two situations among that like-minded group. And I also understand and apologize if my musing on this in a purely intellectual way isn't necessary in this thread, but the cognitive dissonance around so many social issues fascinates me.

And we also discussed the violinist scenario!

Honestly I'd be shocked if a college class on the topic DIDN'T discuss the violinist. I think it's mandatory.  LOL  
I'm in for musing in an intellectual way, but I always am.  

Not aimed at you TR - I don't know if this is what people are looking for when they ask "why can't we talk about this" but like...we can.  We are clearly.  But you'll have to be able to take it when you get jumped on for parroting misleading terminology from the anti-choice movement and not get your feelings hurt when you want to discuss this in a theoretical way and are dealing with people for whom this is NOT theoretical. 

[icedcoffee]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've skimmed.

You can't be pro-choice EXCEPT. Pro-choice by definition means allowing the mother to CHOOSE. You don't always have to agree with the decision or make the same decision, but you do need to provide support for that woman.

This young lady has been failed and I hate that for her.

[scout8]

Jul 24, 2023 11:48:05 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jul 24, 2023 11:21:48 GMT -5 TR said:

Oh yes, of course (to the first bolded). But to the second bolded, that's my theory on why the difference between the two situations among that like-minded group. And I also understand and apologize if my musing on this in a purely intellectual way isn't necessary in this thread, but the cognitive dissonance around so many social issues fascinates me.

And we also discussed the violinist scenario!

Honestly I'd be shocked if a college class on the topic DIDN'T discuss the violinist. I think it's mandatory.  LOL  
I'm in for musing in an intellectual way, but I always am.  

Not aimed at you TR - I don't know if this is what people are looking for when they ask "why can't we talk about this" but like...we can.  We are clearly.  But you'll have to be able to take it when you get jumped on for parroting misleading terminology from the anti-choice movement and not get your feelings hurt when you want to discuss this in a theoretical way and are dealing with people for whom this is NOT theoretical. 

I think this is aimed at me and I'm glad we are discussing it. It's been helpful to me. I've also appreciated learning about the misleading terminology. I won't use it anymore. 

[picksthemusic]

On the other side of it, as an adult adoptee, I can tell you from experience that adoption is not all roses and sunshine. Adoption = trauma no matter how you slice it, no matter how much a child is wanted and brought into a family via adoption. There are a lot of good TikToks explaining this, but it's absolutely true. And not to mention the strain on the foster system that is already overloaded.

[bronxgirl]

Jul 24, 2023 14:16:33 GMT -5 picksthemusic said:

On the other side of it, as an adult adoptee, I can tell you from experience that adoption is not all roses and sunshine. Adoption = trauma no matter how you slice it, no matter how much a child is wanted and brought into a family via adoption. There are a lot of good TikToks explaining this, but it's absolutely true. And not to mention the strain on the foster system that is already overloaded.

Yes, anti-choice people talk about adoption like it's a simple easy solution and everyone lives happily ever after, which is certainly not the case. Along with lacking empathy for pregnant people, pro-birthers have no empathy for anyone going through the adoption process.  Actually, they seem to lack empathy for anyone other than unborn fetuses.