@@@ Teen Who Used Pills to End Pregnancy Gets 90 Days inJail

[bronxgirl]

"A Nebraska teenager who used abortion pills to terminate her pregnancy was sentenced on Thursday to 90 days in jail after she pleaded guilty earlier this year to illegally concealing human remains."

Absolutely infuriating.  And so terrifying about what's to come. 

www.nytimes.com/2023/07/20/us/celeste-burgess-abortion-pill-nebraska.html?smid=re-share

[mpm]

I hate everything.

[wanderingback]

FWIW best practices are to not share articles with names and photos in these cases. We’ve been trying to educate journalists about this but that doesn’t always work obviously.
It’s all so fucked up.

If you or someone you know is ever in legal difficulty for a pregnancy outcome contact IfWhenHow’s repro legal defense fund and spread the word - reprolegaldefensefund.org/

[bronxgirl]

Jul 20, 2023 22:10:14 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

FWIW best practices are to not share articles with names and photos in these cases. We’ve been trying to educate journalists about this but that doesn’t always work obviously.
It’s all so fucked up.

If you or someone you know is ever in legal difficulty for a pregnancy outcome contact IfWhenHow’s repro legal defense fund and spread the word - reprolegaldefensefund.org/

Thanks for telling me that. That makes sense.

[goldengirlz]

Wow, there are so many, many things that are horrifying about that.

She could get up to FIVE YEARS.

Absolutely enraging that we are putting women in prison for this.

[basilosaurus]

And her mom for helping her. I posted about this in July politics

[wanderingback]

Jul 20, 2023 23:02:01 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Wow, there are so many, many things that are horrifying about that.

She could get up to FIVE YEARS.

Absolutely enraging that we are putting women in prison for this.

Yep it’s horrific and it’s been happening for awhile, even in states like CA for stillbirths, miscarriages and abortions. And of course most people are poor and people of color. I know of cases that don’t make the national news too. It’s really really horrible. No one should be put in jail for their pregnancy outcomes.

[penguingrrl]

This is absolutely sickening. That poor girl.

[shauni27]

this is not the anger I needed to feel today. Beyond fucked.

[cap]

This is awful and it's hard to stomach that this is happening.

[neverfstop]

Trigger - details...The whole abortion legality situation of her having to do this is fucked up, but I'm not sure about her choices/actions that she took


What would happen in CA or NY if you self-induced an abortion at 28+ weeks?
I don't know much about mailing pills, but I assume they RX use for them isn't that late in pregnancy?
Is there some gestational age that you do something with embryo or fetus?

[wanderingback]

Jul 21, 2023 13:26:31 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Trigger - details...The whole abortion legality situation of her having to do this is fucked up, but I'm not sure about her choices/actions that she took


What would happen in CA or NY if you self-induced an abortion at 28+ weeks?
I don't know much about mailing pills, but I assume they RX use for them isn't that late in pregnancy?
Is there some gestational age that you do something with embryo or fetus?

There are only 2 states that have explicit laws against self-managed abortion.

Most people who get in trouble for self-managing their abortion, the prosecutors find "loop holes" such as charging people with tampering with remains (I’m not a lawyer so forgive me if the technical words aren’t exact right) or lying to authorities or even things like drug charges.

Like I said above, unfortunately people in states like California have also been criminalized for their pregnancy outcomes as well. No one should be criminalized for their pregnancies. Internet not being a safe place and all I’ll leave it at that.

[mcsangel2]

Jul 21, 2023 13:26:31 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Trigger - details...The whole abortion legality situation of her having to do this is fucked up, but I'm not sure about her choices/actions that she took


What would happen in CA or NY if you self-induced an abortion at 28+ weeks?
I don't know much about mailing pills, but I assume they RX use for them isn't that late in pregnancy?
Is there some gestational age that you do something with embryo or fetus?

IANAL or a doctor, this is purely anecdotal. My sister had a termination that was NCWL in 1997. She was 23/24 weeks along. She was induced and delivered. A death certificate was issued for the baby. I was told at the time, that it was due either to his size (mass) or gestational age, that if he had been smaller or less far along, there would not have been a death certificate and it would have been treated like a miscarriage. I recognize also that this may not have been official, and was treated this way because it had been a desired pregnancy. Given this girl was 28 weeks, I'm sure that's where most of the legal problems come from.

[neverfstop]

Thanks for the info...I've heard lots of horror stories about people having a spontaneous abortion (at various gestational ages) and still being charged with crimes, which is horrible.
Agreed that we've made a huge legal/moral/social mess out of pregnancy...and them ending for any reason creates so many problems and issues and unnecessary trauma for all involved.

For this story, I just wonder if there's more details or nuance we don't know about...maybe she tried getting an abolition earlier? Or didn't have the resources to travel out of state? or Thought she wasn't that far along?

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2023 16:18:22 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Thanks for the info...I've heard lots of horror stories about people having a spontaneous abortion (at various gestational ages) and still being charged with crimes, which is horrible.
Agreed that we've made a huge legal/moral/social mess out of pregnancy...and them ending for any reason creates so many problems and issues and unnecessary trauma for all involved.

For this story, I just wonder if there's more details or nuance we don't know about...maybe she tried getting an abolition earlier? Or didn't have the resources to travel out of state? or Thought she wasn't that far along?

Was she of age to consent at the time of conception?

[clairebear]

Jul 21, 2023 17:02:04 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Jul 21, 2023 16:18:22 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Thanks for the info...I've heard lots of horror stories about people having a spontaneous abortion (at various gestational ages) and still being charged with crimes, which is horrible.
Agreed that we've made a huge legal/moral/social mess out of pregnancy...and them ending for any reason creates so many problems and issues and unnecessary trauma for all involved.

For this story, I just wonder if there's more details or nuance we don't know about...maybe she tried getting an abolition earlier? Or didn't have the resources to travel out of state? or Thought she wasn't that far along?

Was she of age to consent at the time of conception?

She was 17 when she had the abortion and age of consent is 16 in Nebraska so yes. I feel like a lot of details are missing from this story. I don't think she should have been charged. The article mentions she took the pills around 30 weeks to induce an abortion. I don't know how I feel about an abortion on what I assume was a healthy, viable 30 week fetus. I hate that our laws failed her and she got to the point of 30 weeks and felt like that was her only option. 

[pumpkin]

Jul 21, 2023 6:49:03 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

No one should be put in jail for their pregnancy outcomes.

1000 times this!

[jobae1234]

Jul 21, 2023 22:10:52 GMT -5 clairebear said:

Jul 21, 2023 17:02:04 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Was she of age to consent at the time of conception?

She was 17 when she had the abortion and age of consent is 16 in Nebraska so yes. I feel like a lot of details are missing from this story. I don't think she should have been charged. The article mentions she took the pills around 30 weeks to induce an abortion. I don't know how I feel about an abortion on what I assume was a healthy, viable 30 week fetus. I hate that our laws failed her and she got to the point of 30 weeks and felt like that was her only option. 

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s safe to assume she wanted to abort sooner, unless she was one of those teens who didn’t know she was pregnant. And I wish she could have aborted sooner. But terminating at 30 weeks isn’t great. The pregnancy is almost done, and a 30 weeker is viable to live outside the womb which changes how I feel. You’re delivering either way, so hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point. That would have to be better than delivering at home, burning the fetus in a fire, and burying it three separate times. I also think her mother failed her big time in all this.

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

I do think that liberal women who support abortion rights should be able to have these kinds of conversations without attacking each other. We can’t let the fact that the other side thinks all abortion is wrong, trick us into doubling down that all abortion is right, and any termination of a pregnancy at any point before spontaneous labor is allowable. I mean I guess people can think that if they want to. I deeply feel for this woman that she was put in the situation she was in, but I think she made the wrong choice.

[mpm]

I’m not aware of any other law in the US which requires a biological parent to donate any portion of their body to save their child’s life in any other circumstance. Not even if the parent is a convicted felon who has been stripped of his rights. Not even if it’s a kidney, of which he only needs one. Not even if it’s a liver, which can regenerate. Not even if it’s bone narrow, with a lesser recovery time than the least complicated delivery. Not even if it’s blood or plasma. Not even if he’s the sole donor in the entire world who is a match for the child and without his donation the child will die. If we’re going to have a nuanced conversation about weighing interests and bodily autonomy, I’d like to know why that should apply only to a birthing parent’s rights to their own body.

“Well, it’s so incredibly rare that a parent would be a perfect bone marrow match, they wouldn’t be able to find another match, and without them, the child would die.”
Third trimester abortions are also very rare. Why are we discussing legislating/criminalizing one and not the other?

[TR]

mpm - in college I took a philosophy class called "Killing vs Letting Die" and it was all about the nuances of those two scenarios and it feels like that's where people's feelings start changing on this topic.

[wanderingback]

Adoption is NOT an alternative to abortion. One of the forced birthers favorite talking points.

Abortion restrictions actually cause people to have abortions later in pregnancy, so lifting all restrictions would actually allow people to get the care they need in a more timely manner. However, even though rare, people are still going to need abortions in the late 2nd and 3rd trimesters.

Morals and ethics are and should be different than the law. Just because you believe life begins at conception or a 6 week embryo has rights or a 28 week fetus has rights, doesn’t mean the law should disregard bodily autonomy of a pregnant person.

[fryjack2]

@@@@@@@


"So hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point." is a very side eye comment.

Had I waited a few more weeks to deliver, I would have been dead.  I almost died as it was by holding on 8 days longer than I should have to deliver 2 months early, and there probably wouldn't have been anyone to give up for adoption either.

When I had to make a personally heartbreaking decision years later, I did it so that I would be alive to be a mother to my children that were living. My body would not "hold on a few more weeks" nor should I have to because someone else thinks my life doesn't matter and I should suck it up and think of adoption.

And to counter the, "I know many children who were born at 30 weeks and are completely fine" comment, while medicine has come a long way, I know many many many children born at 30 weeks and are far from completely fine. Not my body, not my potential life scenario, not my choice.

[redheadbaker]

Jul 22, 2023 7:46:34 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

WTF??

[penguingrrl]

Jul 22, 2023 7:46:34 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 21, 2023 22:10:52 GMT -5 clairebear said:

She was 17 when she had the abortion and age of consent is 16 in Nebraska so yes. I feel like a lot of details are missing from this story. I don't think she should have been charged. The article mentions she took the pills around 30 weeks to induce an abortion. I don't know how I feel about an abortion on what I assume was a healthy, viable 30 week fetus. I hate that our laws failed her and she got to the point of 30 weeks and felt like that was her only option. 

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s safe to assume she wanted to abort sooner, unless she was one of those teens who didn’t know she was pregnant. And I wish she could have aborted sooner. But terminating at 30 weeks isn’t great. The pregnancy is almost done, and a 30 weeker is viable to live outside the womb which changes how I feel. You’re delivering either way, so hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point. That would have to be better than delivering at home, burning the fetus in a fire, and burying it three separate times. I also think her mother failed her big time in all this.

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

I do think that liberal women who support abortion rights should be able to have these kinds of conversations without attacking each other. We can’t let the fact that the other side thinks all abortion is wrong, trick us into doubling down that all abortion is right, and any termination of a pregnancy at any point before spontaneous labor is allowable. I mean I guess people can think that if they want to. I deeply feel for this woman that she was put in the situation she was in, but I think she made the wrong choice.

As someone who developed preeclampsia during all three of my (very wanted) pregnancies, you can fuck right off with this statement. Pregnancy can be deadly, and even if not deadly is really hard on the woman. Trivializing a few more months of her life is horrific. 

As is trivializing the choice to make an adoption plan. Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not an alternative to abortion.

[jobae1234]

Jul 22, 2023 14:34:43 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Jul 22, 2023 7:46:34 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s safe to assume she wanted to abort sooner, unless she was one of those teens who didn’t know she was pregnant. And I wish she could have aborted sooner. But terminating at 30 weeks isn’t great. The pregnancy is almost done, and a 30 weeker is viable to live outside the womb which changes how I feel. You’re delivering either way, so hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point. That would have to be better than delivering at home, burning the fetus in a fire, and burying it three separate times. I also think her mother failed her big time in all this.

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

I do think that liberal women who support abortion rights should be able to have these kinds of conversations without attacking each other. We can’t let the fact that the other side thinks all abortion is wrong, trick us into doubling down that all abortion is right, and any termination of a pregnancy at any point before spontaneous labor is allowable. I mean I guess people can think that if they want to. I deeply feel for this woman that she was put in the situation she was in, but I think she made the wrong choice.

As someone who developed preeclampsia during all three of my (very wanted) pregnancies, you can fuck right off with this statement. Pregnancy can be deadly, and even if not deadly is really hard on the woman. Trivializing a few more months of her life is horrific. 

As is trivializing the choice to make an adoption plan. Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not an alternative to abortion.

I explicitly stated that my comment that I’m only talking about cases where a pregnancy is just unwanted, and there is no threat to the mother.

I don’t support a healthy mother terminating a healthy pregnancy at 30 weeks. Shrug. We can disagree on that.

[gemini79]

Jul 22, 2023 7:46:34 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 21, 2023 22:10:52 GMT -5 clairebear said:

She was 17 when she had the abortion and age of consent is 16 in Nebraska so yes. I feel like a lot of details are missing from this story. I don't think she should have been charged. The article mentions she took the pills around 30 weeks to induce an abortion. I don't know how I feel about an abortion on what I assume was a healthy, viable 30 week fetus. I hate that our laws failed her and she got to the point of 30 weeks and felt like that was her only option. 

This is exactly how I feel. I think it’s safe to assume she wanted to abort sooner, unless she was one of those teens who didn’t know she was pregnant. And I wish she could have aborted sooner. But terminating at 30 weeks isn’t great. The pregnancy is almost done, and a 30 weeker is viable to live outside the womb which changes how I feel. You’re delivering either way, so hold on for a few more weeks and give it up for adoption at that point. That would have to be better than delivering at home, burning the fetus in a fire, and burying it three separate times. I also think her mother failed her big time in all this.

I KNOW that is an unpopular opinion, but I personally think abortion is nuanced, and there’s a point in the pregnancy (LATE in the pregnancy) when the life of the fetus should come into play, assuming it’s of no harm to the mother. I don’t see all that much difference between a 30 week termination and a 38 week termination. I know many children born at 30ish weeks and all are completely fine.

I do think that liberal women who support abortion rights should be able to have these kinds of conversations without attacking each other. We can’t let the fact that the other side thinks all abortion is wrong, trick us into doubling down that all abortion is right, and any termination of a pregnancy at any point before spontaneous labor is allowable. I mean I guess people can think that if they want to. I deeply feel for this woman that she was put in the situation she was in, but I think she made the wrong choice.

This is a really weird take. It seems like you have missed some points or something.

[basilosaurus]

Jul 22, 2023 16:07:50 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Jul 22, 2023 14:34:43 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

As someone who developed preeclampsia during all three of my (very wanted) pregnancies, you can fuck right off with this statement. Pregnancy can be deadly, and even if not deadly is really hard on the woman. Trivializing a few more months of her life is horrific. 

As is trivializing the choice to make an adoption plan. Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not an alternative to abortion.

I explicitly stated that my comment that I’m only talking about cases where a pregnancy is just unwanted, and there is no threat to the mother.

I don’t support a healthy mother terminating a healthy pregnancy at 30 weeks. Shrug. We can disagree on that.

Nope. We can't disagree.

[SwimDeep]

I'm on my phone and can't gif. So I will provide the alt text:

A yellow cartoon character with an "oh fuck no" expression shrinking backwards into thick green shrubbery.

*shrug*

Fucking "shrug"?!

Alt text for gif:

Black and white image of woman describing "Flames. Flames coming out of my face."

[fryjack2]

@@@@@

You can have discussions with “liberals” and disagree and choose how you would proceed with your own pregnancy however you would like. The problem is when you (and others) vote in a way that prohibits other people from making choices for themselves about their own bodies.

Very few people are having third trimester abortions "just because" and its none of my business, or yours. And the fact that people can’t see that increasing bans will only make that worse is asinine. We are already seeing an 11% increase in infant death (because women are being forced to carry to term when their babies are not compatible with life) and an increase in maternal health complications because of these bans.

Making someone carry to term just so that an infant can be born to the outside world (because god or something) and then spend a few hours suffering is not prolife.

Edited to use more appropriate wording thanks to reminders from wanderingback and others in this thread. 

[scout8]

I don't understand why we can't have this discussion. According to the Pew Research Center, only 19% of people think that abortion should be allowed in all cases with no exceptions. So it's a pretty low percentage. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about late term abortion outside of health of mother or abnormalities not compatible with life. I understand that a late term abortion just because is very rare, but in those cases, why do you (general you) feel it is ok? Is there ever a time that it isn't ok? I'm not looking to argue here because I really don't know how I feel. I genuinely would like to hear perspectives and don't understand why we can't have a real discussion about it.