Airlines are banks in the sky

[Velar Fricative]

Not a shock lol. I didn’t know The Points Guy is getting out of this nonsense game too.

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/09/airlines-banks-mileage-programs/675374/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=true-anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR03mZ-chXTMtctiCUoA8JsAgt1TCP0GmOSTA6EB9AE5YJlM2evC3Rf594Q_aem_ASDkg-LxY1zDYbddDYcYz1spYG9_FZ_r_pr8oC3Uf8Gnx3lZfDN1YHzdvSJliif8RgU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

[ssmjlm]

Even before the Delta change, it's truly hard to do something like the point chasers if you don't have a good airport locally, which we don't. Even with the CSR, you have to be able to transfer to a partner that you can fly.

A lot of people on the points guy post were saying they were going to use up their miles and then move on.

[Velar Fricative]

Now that I have time for my own comments...

I was turned off by the racket that is this points/miles system anyway and planned to not renew my current card, but I found the piece fascinating because it also went into the history of the airline business to bring us to where we are now. And also, I lolsobbed when I saw that the airlines themselves are worth less to Wall Street than their loyalty programs are.

[ellipses84]

All the “purchase miles” deals never seem to add up for me. I guess if you need a couple hundred miles for a free flight it could make financial sense. Whenever I’ve checked, even when miles are 50% off, it still ends up costing the same or more as the flight cost. The only thing I’ve ever had success with for credit cards is the companion fares, but most have ticket fees and amounts you have to spend to qualify, which keep increasing.

I think we need more regulation in terms of passenger rights. I have a list in my head I think I should write my representatives about but it also seems a little trivial compared to all of the other issues the US has right now. European counties have more consumer friendly laws about things like compensation. It seems like airlines purposely overbook their flight and have unrealistic layovers even more than they used to. This summer Delta changed a flight to 10 hours earlier on us without notification or reason. Luckily I checked in 24 hours before and noticed it. We could change to a different flight but there was nothing comparable to the original redeye. We ended up missing work (unpaid) and had to get an extra hotel night. Although their website said some of those things can be reason for compensation, all they would give us was a $50 credit each for a future flight.

[breezy8407]

The Delta changes have been a hot topic at my office because most of my colleagues have the Reserve card due to our work travel out of a Delta hub. People are obviously upset about the changes. I've been really lucky(?) with being able to use my companion certificates without any hassle, so it still makes the annual fee worth it for now. I am going to see how it plays out, but I know a lot of people (anecdotes) are talking about cancelling. For most it doesn't make sense to stay loyal and instead look for the cheapest fares. In regards to status, it seems like everyone will be starting over, so you are still going to have status just not the same level as with the previous system.

I didn't know about the regulation/deregulation either.

[EvieEthelGarland]

The only rewards program I've liked is Southwest. It's based on price, not a flat fee for a flight. I can fly at a moment's notice for $10-$20 and sometimes flights are as low as 3500 miles one way.
The last time I used United points, I had to book a year in advance, they separated me from my toddler (we had booked seats together and this was 10 years ago before they started charging) and told me I needed to fly more to elevate my status if I wanted to sit with my 3yo. I was cashing in 400k miles--I had status! The same flight on SWA would've been max 50k.
I've read the points guy but it always seemed like so much work.

[icedcoffee]

Sept 25, 2023 13:49:08 GMT -5 EvieEthelGarland said:

The only rewards program I've liked is Southwest. It's based on price, not a flat fee for a flight. I can fly at a moment's notice for $10-$20 and sometimes flights are as low as 3500 miles one way.
The last time I used United points, I had to book a year in advance, they separated me from my toddler (we had booked seats together and this was 10 years ago before they started charging) and told me I needed to fly more to elevate my status if I wanted to sit with my 3yo. I was cashing in 400k miles--I had status! The same flight on SWA would've been max 50k.
I've read the points guy but it always seemed like so much work.

I've never been airline loyal until recently and now I am basically ride or die Southwest flyer.  Changing flights is so easy and using points is also easy.  I'll never have "status" on SW, but I fly often for free using my Chase points.  

@@especially now that I have kids I love that I can cancel my flights up until 10 minutes before.  Kids add so much unpredictability into life.

[sent]

From 2007 - 2012, miles and points were truly my hobby. I was an adult who finally had a little bit of money and time to spend on flights and hotels and travel. This was before the blogs came on the scene. Miles and points were basically a couponing program for those with a credit card. The fun for those of us who were not "road warriors" (the people who earned their miles by actually flying for work) was in figuring out how to get the perks while spending the least money. Or spending money but getting a return beyond what the average person would earn with a regular transaction. I have lots of fun stories and memories from that time, stuff that I could never discuss with my regular friends or family because they would all think I was nuts rather than recognizing it as my hobby. The bloggers came shortly afterwards and it became what we see now - where "regular" people want to use their credit cards "for my points!" but haven't quite 2+2 together on how credit card transactions raise overall prices as the article mentions and why small businesses are increasingly charging more to use your credit card.

After 2013, I no longer had time to seek out the deals to keep up with the hobby but at the same time, my organic credit card spending began ramping up as my business grew. These days I pay my business CC bills each month and usually opt to take my CC rewards in some form of miles/points rather than 2% cashback. I just cashed in a stupid amount of points to fly 5 of us home on a domestic first class flight that is 4 hours. I was happy to use my points and not have to pay $3000 in real money for those same 5 tickets. Those happy feelings are probably what keeps my loyalty to Chase as my preferred credit card bank over any one particular airline or hotel. My old hobby self would've been horrified at the "cents per mile" or cpm value of my redemption (the goal was to get the highest cpm possible) but I don't have the time to play the hobby like I used to back then.

Even if TPG gets out of the business, the airlines will continue the scheme until CC transactions and CC rewards go away as we move more to Zelle type of transactions.

[goldengirlz]

The article seems to be conflating two things — status and points.

Most of the benefits of status have little to do with points (although you usually do get an accelerated earnings rate) but include things like free checked bags, free premium economy, priority boarding, lounge access, free upgrades, etc. etc.

Delta is no longer rewarding people based on how often they fly, but how much they spend. So they’re screwing people who might fly a lot but have to book the cheapest fares.

Points/miles-earning credit cards are their own animal, and are rarely a good deal. I keep the United credit card though for the status-type perks (free checked bags and early boarding) and the accelerated path to status.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 25, 2023 14:52:31 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

The article seems to be conflating two things — status and points.

Most of the benefits of status have little to do with points (although you usually get an accelerated earnings rate) but include things like free checked bags, free premium economy, priority boarding, lounge access, free upgrades, etc. etc.

Delta is no longer rewarding people based on how often they fly, but how much they spend. So they’re screwing people who might fly a lot but have to book the cheapest fares.

Points-earning credit cards are their own animal.

Right, and that was the gist of the piece but I'm not sure how much everyone read lol. It's a lot more enriching for airlines to stick with CC spending and enticing people to book hotels and services through the airline's system than to reward people for actually flying with them. That is wild to me. 

[EvieEthelGarland]

Sept 25, 2023 14:15:25 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Sept 25, 2023 13:49:08 GMT -5 EvieEthelGarland said:

The only rewards program I've liked is Southwest. It's based on price, not a flat fee for a flight. I can fly at a moment's notice for $10-$20 and sometimes flights are as low as 3500 miles one way.
The last time I used United points, I had to book a year in advance, they separated me from my toddler (we had booked seats together and this was 10 years ago before they started charging) and told me I needed to fly more to elevate my status if I wanted to sit with my 3yo. I was cashing in 400k miles--I had status! The same flight on SWA would've been max 50k.
I've read the points guy but it always seemed like so much work.

I've never been airline loyal until recently and now I am basically ride or die Southwest flyer.  Changing flights is so easy and using points is also easy.  I'll never have "status" on SW, but I fly often for free using my Chase points.  

@@especially now that I have kids I love that I can cancel my flights up until 10 minutes before.  Kids add so much unpredictability into life.

We churn the cards. I get one on even years and DH on odd. For $69, I can buy 4 RT tickets to my sister's. 

@@i hear so much whining about unassigned seats, but never ever have had a problem. The one time there was a delay and we were late to our connection someone kindly gave up their aisle seat so my son and I could sit next to each other.  He was so distraught because we almost missed the flight.   When you pay a premium for a seat, that kindness is understandably unlikely. Bonus-The flight attendant gave me and the woman who moved a free glass of wine.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 25, 2023 14:57:30 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Sept 25, 2023 14:52:31 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

The article seems to be conflating two things — status and points.

Most of the benefits of status have little to do with points (although you usually get an accelerated earnings rate) but include things like free checked bags, free premium economy, priority boarding, lounge access, free upgrades, etc. etc.

Delta is no longer rewarding people based on how often they fly, but how much they spend. So they’re screwing people who might fly a lot but have to book the cheapest fares.

Points-earning credit cards are their own animal.

Right, and that was the gist of the piece but I'm not sure how much everyone read lol. It's a lot more enriching for airlines to stick with CC spending and enticing people to book hotels and services through the airline's system than to reward people for actually flying with them. That is wild to me. 

That detail was news to me too but it doesn’t shock me that the average economy passenger is worth very little to an airline.

They get far more profit from an executive buying a last-minute business class ticket on a transatlantic flight than they do from a loyal economy flier.

Every time I fly first, it just kind of pisses me off. There’s SUCH a huge difference in every element of the flying experience, and my H’s theory is that they do this on purpose as a hard up-selling tactic. United’s most lucrative flight routes now have four classes: the lie-flat seats in first; “premium plus,” which is more like domestic first class; premium economy (which is just economy with extra legroom), and then “regular” economy. If you’re rich, flying is mostly a nice experience. Otherwise, it’s misery.

[Vespasia]

Sept 25, 2023 14:31:58 GMT -5 sent said:

Even if TPG gets out of the business, the airlines will continue the scheme until CC transactions and CC rewards go away as we move more to Zelle type of transactions.

Just in the interest of clarity, the guy in charge TPG says he is no longer going to personally chase status. He'll just make decisions based on different metrics and the site itself will still cover the points game.

He's been very outspoken against proposed legislation to regulate the cc rewards system.

Personally I have never cared about status despite being a points enthusiast. I'm much more interested in getting where I want to go while spending as few points as possible. I've also only really flown economy because I don't spend enough to build up business level points.

I am still pissed about the recent United devaluation but I realize something like that is always a possibility. That's why I like transferable points rather than airline or hotel specific cards.

[tamarindy]

Sept 25, 2023 15:01:03 GMT -5 EvieEthelGarland said:

Sept 25, 2023 14:15:25 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I've never been airline loyal until recently and now I am basically ride or die Southwest flyer.  Changing flights is so easy and using points is also easy.  I'll never have "status" on SW, but I fly often for free using my Chase points.  

@@especially now that I have kids I love that I can cancel my flights up until 10 minutes before.  Kids add so much unpredictability into life.

We churn the cards. I get one on even years and DH on odd. For $69, I can buy 4 RT tickets to my sister's. 

@@i hear so much whining about unassigned seats, but never ever have had a problem. The one time there was a delay and we were late to our connection someone kindly gave up their aisle seat so my son and I could sit next to each other.  He was so distraught because we almost missed the flight.   When you pay a premium for a seat, that kindness is understandably unlikely. Bonus-The flight attendant gave me and the woman who moved a free glass of wine.

Not whining, but not having assigned seats is why I try to avoid Southwest. I have literal anxiety if I don’t know my seat in advance. I’m also 6’1” with a 6’5” husband so we pay to get exit rows every time. Like, at least give me the option! It’s just not a good vibe for people like me and the situation you described of having to move to accommodate others is so awkward (again, for me).

[sent]

Sept 25, 2023 14:52:31 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

The article seems to be conflating two things — status and points.

Most of the benefits of status have little to do with points (although you usually do get an accelerated earnings rate) but include things like free checked bags, free premium economy, priority boarding, lounge access, free upgrades, etc. etc.

Delta is no longer rewarding people based on how often they fly, but how much they spend. So they’re screwing people who might fly a lot but have to book the cheapest fares.

Points/miles-earning credit cards are their own animal, and are rarely a good deal. I keep the United credit card though for the status-type perks (free checked bags and early boarding) and the accelerated path to status.

They're related. In the before times, you could only earn the points if you actually flew. The more you flew, the more points you earned. Then came the credit cards. Only after the airlines realized they could profit from giving out points through the credit cards without even having to fly people did they become two separate but somewhat related things. Then it started going the opposite way - could it be possible to spend enough on the cards to earn status without even flying. 

Now loyalty has turned into rewarding those who spend the most whether it's directly with the airline or on its affiliated CC. Of course it's where we would land, deregulation, capitalism, trickle down, etc. something. I don't know the exact economic term of what's happening here, but basically it seems like everything the government deregulated has ended up at the exact opposite extreme of what they thought would happen. 

[sent]

Sept 25, 2023 15:53:45 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

I am still pissed about the recent United devaluation but I realize something like that is always a possibility. That's why I like transferable points rather than airline or hotel specific cards.

This makes you loyal to a bank rather than an actual airline or hotel such as United which I understood as one of the underlying messages of the article. 

The game used to be about earning status either the legit way by flying/hotel stays or the hacked way with the least amount of spend/least amount of flying or both. The original TPG was part of this. There was also the flip side of people who earned tons of points through regular work travel and/or as a hobbyist (some travel, some CC spend) trying maximize their redemptions. The game changed a lot as the CCs started awarding bloggers with their referral bonuses and more people started getting these credit cards. 

[lilac05]

“Certainly the system is bad for Americans who don’t have points-earning cards. They pay higher prices on ordinary goods and services but don’t get the points, effectively subsidizing the perks of card users, who tend to be wealthier already.”

This has been my gripe about these programs all along. SOMEONE is paying for all of those “free” flights and hotel rooms. Those who can afford to “charge everything” get all of the benefits and everyone else gets to pay for them. But no one really wants to talk about it because it’s more fun talking about how they were able to take a trip to Fiji for $150.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 25, 2023 17:43:50 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

“Certainly the system is bad for Americans who don’t have points-earning cards. They pay higher prices on ordinary goods and services but don’t get the points, effectively subsidizing the perks of card users, who tend to be wealthier already.”

This has been my gripe about these programs all along. SOMEONE is paying for all of those “free” flights and hotel rooms. Those who can afford to “charge everything” get all of the benefits and everyone else gets to pay for them. But no one really wants to talk about it because it’s more fun talking about how they were able to take a trip to Fiji for $150.

This is also why it’s hard to quit them too. I will, but I know I’m paying those higher prices with no benefits for myself. Most people would think about that and decide what’s the point, might as well keep using these cards to get some personal benefit while people who can’t or won’t use CCs like this get no benefits (beyond perhaps less debt).

[lilac05]

Sept 25, 2023 17:43:50 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

“Certainly the system is bad for Americans who don’t have points-earning cards. They pay higher prices on ordinary goods and services but don’t get the points, effectively subsidizing the perks of card users, who tend to be wealthier already.”

This has been my gripe about these programs all along. SOMEONE is paying for all of those “free” flights and hotel rooms. Those who can afford to “charge everything” get all of the benefits and everyone else gets to pay for them. But no one really wants to talk about it because it’s more fun talking about how they were able to take a trip to Fiji for $150.

ETA: I’m just starting a small business selling a relatively low value product. The fees that these credit cards now charge are a VERY significant part of my pricing structure, as not accepting a credit card isn’t an option these days. I HATE it. I literally have to pass that cost along to customers because my profit margin is so small in the first place. It just really sucks. So, yeah everyone! Go have a blast on your “free” vacation…everyone who just bought my product paid for that…but they’re mad at me because I “charge too much.” It just sucks.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 25, 2023 16:33:26 GMT -5 sent said:

Sept 25, 2023 14:52:31 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

The article seems to be conflating two things — status and points.

Most of the benefits of status have little to do with points (although you usually do get an accelerated earnings rate) but include things like free checked bags, free premium economy, priority boarding, lounge access, free upgrades, etc. etc.

Delta is no longer rewarding people based on how often they fly, but how much they spend. So they’re screwing people who might fly a lot but have to book the cheapest fares.

Points/miles-earning credit cards are their own animal, and are rarely a good deal. I keep the United credit card though for the status-type perks (free checked bags and early boarding) and the accelerated path to status.

They're related. In the before times, you could only earn the points if you actually flew. The more you flew, the more points you earned. Then came the credit cards. Only after the airlines realized they could profit from giving out points through the credit cards without even having to fly people did they become two separate but somewhat related things. Then it started going the opposite way - could it be possible to spend enough on the cards to earn status without even flying. 

Now loyalty has turned into rewarding those who spend the most. Of course it's where we would land, deregulation, capitalism, trickle down, etc. something. I don't know the exact economic term of what's happening here, but basically it seems like everything the government deregulated seemed to have ended up at the exact opposite extreme of what they thought would happen. 

That’s the part that got me. Like, why did we think deregulation would end up being a boon for consumers when there are only so many airports and runways available and plane are kinda sorta expensive?

[lilac05]

Sept 25, 2023 17:54:36 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Sept 25, 2023 17:43:50 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

“Certainly the system is bad for Americans who don’t have points-earning cards. They pay higher prices on ordinary goods and services but don’t get the points, effectively subsidizing the perks of card users, who tend to be wealthier already.”

This has been my gripe about these programs all along. SOMEONE is paying for all of those “free” flights and hotel rooms. Those who can afford to “charge everything” get all of the benefits and everyone else gets to pay for them. But no one really wants to talk about it because it’s more fun talking about how they were able to take a trip to Fiji for $150.

This is also why it’s hard to quit them too. I will, but I know I’m paying those higher prices with no benefits for myself. Most people would think about that and decide what’s the point, might as well keep using these cards to get some personal benefit while people who can’t or won’t use CCs like this get no benefits (beyond perhaps less debt).

Absolutely. I’ve always avoided them on principle…but it’s hard to know that I’m missing out on these huge “perks.” But essentially, it’s voting with my dollars.

Things like this are why for a long time, places didn’t accept American Express or Discover. Their merchant fees were so high. I don’t have either card, so I’m not sure how much that’s a thing anymore or if Visa and MasterCard just raised their rates to match.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2023 17:55:18 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Sept 25, 2023 17:43:50 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

“Certainly the system is bad for Americans who don’t have points-earning cards. They pay higher prices on ordinary goods and services but don’t get the points, effectively subsidizing the perks of card users, who tend to be wealthier already.”

This has been my gripe about these programs all along. SOMEONE is paying for all of those “free” flights and hotel rooms. Those who can afford to “charge everything” get all of the benefits and everyone else gets to pay for them. But no one really wants to talk about it because it’s more fun talking about how they were able to take a trip to Fiji for $150.

ETA: I’m just starting a small business selling a relatively low value product. The fees that these credit cards now charge are a VERY significant part of my pricing structure, as not accepting a credit card isn’t an option these days. I HATE it. I literally have to pass that cost along to customers because my profit margin is so small in the first place. It just really sucks. So, yeah everyone! Go have a blast on your “free” vacation…everyone who just bought my product paid for that…but they’re mad at me because I “charge too much.” It just sucks.

I’m not sure I represent all customers, but in cases like this, especially with small businesses, I appreciate seeing something like “2.5% credit card fee, or a minimum of $1.50 per purchase” or whatever so I can decide if I want to pay cash or use a card. 90% of the time I use my card knowing and understanding the fee.

[aurora]

I'm still pissed at United - which is the biggest airline locally - for utterly failing me in their East Cost debacle this summer, costing me an additional $400 (real money!) plus an additional 26-hr delay to get home due to their own acknowledged scheduling error (not weather), while their CEO just hopped on a private jet that same day to fly across the country, and then thinking a $100 voucher plus a few miles should be enough to compensate.

We so desperately need a passenger bill of rights.

[sent]

Sept 25, 2023 17:58:53 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Things like this are why for a long time, places didn’t accept American Express or Discover. Their merchant fees were so high. I don’t have either card, so I’m not sure how much that’s a thing anymore or if Visa and MasterCard just raised their rates to match.

Visa and Mastercard charge varying rates depending on what kind of rewards card the consumer uses. As the business owner paying the merchant fees, I get charged a tiny amount for someone using a debit card with a Visa logo. I get charged much more for someone who whips out a Chase CSR. Thats why the small business has a sign charging a blanket 3% or whatever for a CC transaction because that’s typically the average percent it costs to accept any credit cards. It impossible to know which card will cost you what so again, the people with the no-rewards cards trying to build their credit are subsidizing those who pay with a Chase CSR. 

[neverfstop]

I think there are lots of issues here. Some (most) years I fly weekly & am paying the full fare (some times coach, sometime FC) due to business and last minute nature of my travel and constant changes. I've been the highest published tier on united for 10-15 years (going back to Continental days).

-The airlines suck & need to be regulated more, they get tons of federal funds & support, but reap all the private profits while the US subsidizes the risk and costs of their failures

-Their loyalty (elite status) programs are a scam, how people "earn" (buy paying $ or using CC) status is very broken, it's such a game, people are always trying to cheat it, it constantly changes, the frequent flyers are even sick of trying to play the game with reward tickets or upgrades that never clear, it feels like it's changed so much in the last 20 years

-Yes, using a credit card to "earn" something isn't a great return, but if consumers are forced to pick a card, you may as well pick something that benefits you the most. I have a united card & actually upgraded to their more $ card because I easily earned back those miles because of the 10x multiplier on United purchases, plus the no overseas fees. Most people have a gas/grocery card for everyday spending to maximize their benefits.

We had a whole thread earlier this year about who is harmed by the credit cards perks. So I think the credit card industry as a whole needs more reforms & regulation. That was sort of the promise of crypto - as allowing people to send/receive money at a fraction of the costs of accepting a credit card.
pandce.proboards.com/thread/636814/who-hurt-credit-card-perks


ETA: United has been determining elite status as a direct function of the dollar amount you spent (not flights or segments) for a few years IIRC...it's slightly more complicated in that you can earn "premium qualifying miles" in several ways & there a few formulas, but it's mostly about total $ spent on tickets

[neverfstop]

SO this is also happening too... I wonder if other airlines/lounges will follow. Clubs got too full....

www.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/travel/delta-sky-club-elite-status-changes
Delta to slash Sky Club access for Amex card holders

[Poeticxpassion]

Sept 25, 2023 18:14:44 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Sept 25, 2023 17:55:18 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

ETA: I’m just starting a small business selling a relatively low value product. The fees that these credit cards now charge are a VERY significant part of my pricing structure, as not accepting a credit card isn’t an option these days. I HATE it. I literally have to pass that cost along to customers because my profit margin is so small in the first place. It just really sucks. So, yeah everyone! Go have a blast on your “free” vacation…everyone who just bought my product paid for that…but they’re mad at me because I “charge too much.” It just sucks.

I’m not sure I represent all customers, but in cases like this, especially with small businesses, I appreciate seeing something like “2.5% credit card fee, or a minimum of $1.50 per purchase” or whatever so I can decide if I want to pay cash or use a card. 90% of the time I use my card knowing and understanding the fee.

It is always illegal to add a surcharge or convenience fee to a customer using a debit card. However, a credit card is different. In certain states, what you are describing is illegal.

States that prohibit credit card surcharges and convenience fees

Ten states prohibit credit card surcharges and convenience fees: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma and Texas. It is illegal for merchants to add any surcharges to credit card transactions or charge convenience fees to nontraditional payment methods in these states.

Removed link as it was going to a refinancing questionnaire. Sorry about that!

[Velar Fricative]

New York definitely has CC surcharges. But maybe NYC was able to get around that.

[Poeticxpassion]

Ever since we moved to Denver, we fly using Southwest. The only "perk" to be disabled on a flight using Southwest is being the first to board. I can board the plane, with my husband and son, and select our seats before anyone else gets on. The flight attendants usually make sure I'm all settled and ready before allowing others to start boarding. Most of the time, I need to find room for my cane/walker and get a seat belt extender. This is the only reason I don't get anxious before a flight. I know all 3 of us will be sitting in the 2nd row all together.

[sent]

Sept 25, 2023 20:49:31 GMT -5 Poeticxpassion said:

It is always illegal to add a surcharge or convenience fee to a customer using a debit card. However, a credit card is different. In certain states, what you are describing is illegal.

States that prohibit credit card surcharges and convenience fees

Ten states prohibit credit card surcharges and convenience fees: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma and Texas. It is illegal for merchants to add any surcharges to credit card transactions or charge convenience fees to nontraditional payment methods in these states.

www.lendingtree.com/credit-cards/articles/surcharges-and-convenience-fees/

Is writing "3.5% discount for paying with cash" different?

(the link you posted asked me if I wanted to refinance something and didn't show me an article)