Israel at war after surprise attack

[goldengirlz]

Why does this have to be a tit for tat?

Jews, Palestinians — we’re all scared this week, all grieving this week, all subjected to bigotry and hate speech. Both sides feel like the media is misrepresenting us.

FWIW, I’ll quibble with the point about whose land it actually is. This dispute precedes 1948, and goes all the way back to Biblical times. The Jews were driven from their land over and over again. They don’t see themselves as colonizers in the same way as say, the British Empire. That’s not to say Palestinians don’t ALSO have a legitimate claim to the land. I’m not disputing that. But the narrative of colonialism paints Jews unfairly.

But this situation is EXACTLY how generational hate perpetuates and it’s terrible. Terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah prey on desperate people, and desperate people become radicalized. They use horrible tactics against Israelis and Israeli sympathizers, and Israel responds with disproportionate force because, well, what country wouldn’t do the same? Wash, rinse and repeat.

Israel has long been willing to negotiate land for peace, and Israel’s borders are constantly shifting. But we haven’t been able to break the cycle in part because Israel needs to negotiate with terrorist groups like Hamas, which controls Gaza. Everyone just wants peace and security. The sticking point is how.

[sonrisa]

Oct 10, 2023 19:08:18 GMT -5 AJL said:

Oct 10, 2023 19:04:15 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Do you feel that this is not being recognized? I’m so sorry. I think everyone on here deeply feels this is a scary, painful and difficult yet situation.

Yes, I absolutely feel like us Jews are do not receive the same empathy because Israel is the aggressor. I wouldn't have said something id I didn't feel that way. I'm not going to justify how I feel to you or fryjack or anyone else. I said what I said.

Good night to you all. I'm exciting this thread. Do not quote me. Do not tag me.

I personally don't know how to type about this topic on this forum.

It is all so incredibly horrific. A neighbor's relative was taken and murdered by Hamas. My energy is going toward comforting them, not engaging here. 

I am not asking you (or fryjack2 , or anyone) to justify anything, least of all to me. This is so awful for those living it, and so traumatic for those who are tied by family, religion or culture to this horror.

Spill your anger on me (any of you). I can't stop this terrible time, but I can listen to whatever you need to say and anything you need to have heard. 

[fryjack2]

What the actual Fuxk?

I have condemned Hamas no less than 4 times in this thread. My anger is directed at them. It is also directed at Israel. BOTH countries have innocent people caught in the fuckery of Hamas and the fuckery of Israel. That is a fact.

And bad dingo, if you want to say war happens and land gets stolen, so Palestinians should just suck it up and deal with the consequences and live in shitty conditions then that same rationale can be used to rationalize what’s happening by saying war is war so tough that civilians in a Israel were killed or are being murdered. Or what happened in the holocaust. Because war.

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2023 19:15:26 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

FWIW, I’ll quibble with the point about whose land it actually is. This dispute precedes 1948, and goes all the way back to Biblical times. The Jews were driven from their land over and over again. They don’t see themselves as colonizers in the same way as say, the British Empire. That’s not to say Palestinians don’t ALSO have a legitimate claim to the land. I’m not disputing that. But the narrative of colonialism paints Jews unfairly.

But this situation is EXACTLY how generational hate perpetuates and it’s terrible. Terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah prey on desperate people, and desperate people become radicalized. They use horrible tactics against Israelis and Israeli sympathizers, and Israel responds with disproportionate force because, well, what country wouldn’t do the same? Wash, rinse and repeat.

Israel has long been willing to negotiate land for peace, and Israel’s borders are constantly shifting. But we haven’t been able to break the cycle in part because Israel needs to negotiate with terrorist groups like Hamas, which control Gaza. Everyone just wants peace and security. The sticking point is how.

Holy shit I’m sorry but this is an insane take. Especially the bolded.

[fryjack2]

Oct 10, 2023 18:58:38 GMT -5 AJL said:

Oct 10, 2023 18:31:49 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Wow. Ok. I care that innocent people in both countries are being murdered and am having a rationale conversation.

You just want to post your thoughts and opinions and then try to silence and minimize mine?

So typical of what the world as a whole is doing right now to Palestinians. And a reason so many people I know are not sending their children to school- because of the hate being projected towards them as well right now. 

I'm not silencing you or minimizing your opinions. I said that I can not have a rational conversation about this. Frankly that is far more mature than trying to discuss this matter when I feel raw and emotional and frayed. You have had the opportunity to speak your thoughts, experience, and opinions every time Israel does oppressor shit (which they have done for nearly 80 years. WHICH I HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED AND CONDEMNED) 

But for once, JUST ONCE, can the Jews on this board gets some goddamn recognition that this is incredibly scary, painful, and difficult? You are essentially "All Lives Matter"-ing us and it's exhausting. We're trying not to look like the bad guy but our people are being beheaded. Our people are being summarily executed. Our people are being raped. By Hamas. 

I'm not your friend. I don't owe you a reasonable discussion on this issue. So, yes, I don't really care right now because I can't be rational about this discussion. 

I’ve had the opportunity to express my thoughts for 80 years? What does that mean?

I’m not all lives mattering. I’m not speaking for anyone who is Jewish other than to acknowledge that this is awful time for them. As a non Hamas Palestinian, it’s also a scary time for us. Am I not allowed to share that? Horror is happening to us, as well. I’m speaking about people actually involved in this.

This is a discussion board. Where the expectation is discussions, even emotional difficult ones happen. I can respect that some of them end when it’s too emotional or hurtful to continue them.

Im not understanding the sentiment that there isn’t recognition on here of what Jews have been through. It’s voiced all the time.
every thread about Israel or despicable acts against Jewish people has many responses of support, including from me. Every thread that includes discussions about Palestine has many Jewish voices and one Palestinian one. That always ends like this.

[goldengirlz]

Oct 10, 2023 19:33:58 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Oct 10, 2023 19:15:26 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

FWIW, I’ll quibble with the point about whose land it actually is. This dispute precedes 1948, and goes all the way back to Biblical times. The Jews were driven from their land over and over again. They don’t see themselves as colonizers in the same way as say, the British Empire. That’s not to say Palestinians don’t ALSO have a legitimate claim to the land. I’m not disputing that. But the narrative of colonialism paints Jews unfairly.

But this situation is EXACTLY how generational hate perpetuates and it’s terrible. Terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah prey on desperate people, and desperate people become radicalized. They use horrible tactics against Israelis and Israeli sympathizers, and Israel responds with disproportionate force because, well, what country wouldn’t do the same? Wash, rinse and repeat.

Israel has long been willing to negotiate land for peace, and Israel’s borders are constantly shifting. But we haven’t been able to break the cycle in part because Israel needs to negotiate with terrorist groups like Hamas, which control Gaza. Everyone just wants peace and security. The sticking point is how.

Holy shit I’m sorry but this is an insane take. Especially the bolded.

No, it’s a fact that Israel has captured and then given up land as part of peace negotiations. Just look at how the map has evolved over the past several decades. Case in point: the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights

More on Land for Peace: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_for_peace

Non-Wikipedia/UN link: archive.unescwa.org/land-peace-principle

The details may be controversial but it’s not a “take.”

[underwaterrhymes]

There are so many innocent Israelis and Palestinians who have been irreparably harmed or killed this week thanks to power-hungry, evil humans. Hamas and its supporters are evil. Netanyahu and the forces who support him are evil. It’s all so terrible and I hate that we live in a world where women are raped and babies are killed and people are deprived of basic necessities and that our world has lived through centuries upon centuries of hatred and oppression and genocide and yet still we are in a place where we hate and harm and kill. It’s so fucking sad and awful and I don’t even know what to say that is enough.

[pixy0stix]

Any information on Twitter is highly suspect at the moment. Vet your sources wisely - www.cnn.com/2023/10/10/tech/x-europe-israel-misinformation/index.html

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2023 20:03:12 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Oct 10, 2023 19:33:58 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Holy shit I’m sorry but this is an insane take. Especially the bolded.

No, it’s a fact that Israel has captured and then given up land as part of peace negotiations. Just look at how the map has evolved over the past several decades. Case in point: the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights

More on Land for Peace: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_for_peace

Non-Wikipedia/UN link: archive.unescwa.org/land-peace-principle

The details may be controversial but it’s not a “take.”

Cool. Here’s a link from me www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

[fryjack2]

I'm sorry that this is devolving.

It was originally a post that was supporting those hurting and scared right now and wish it stayed that way or can veer back there.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 10, 2023 20:30:36 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I'm sorry that this is devolving.

It was originally a post that was supporting those hurting and scared right now and wish it stayed that way or can veer back there.

The numbers coming out of Palestine regarding those killed, injured, or displaced are staggering.

[goldengirlz]

I don’t have it in me to debate geopolitics right now, especially with people who are new to our community and coming in hot on this topic.

One of the most illuminating moments for me was when I learned that fryjack2 and I had learned different versions of history. I think about that all the time now when the topic of Israel/Palestine comes up and I try to be careful about what I say, while acknowledging that certain issues will ALWAYS be in dispute.

Most people here have tried to appreciate all the nuance, and offer support to two historically disenfranchised groups, even when emotions are running high. I’m not here to stir shit, and I can’t engage with anyone who wants to stir shit.

[sonrisa]

Oct 10, 2023 20:30:36 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

It was originally a post that was supporting those hurting and scared right now 

I read you as one of the people who is scared and hurting in this thread. 

[sofamonkey]

I appreciate every single one of you that has shared your family’s history or pain. I don’t really have anything helpful to say, except I am very sorry that so many of you are hurting so very much.

I hear you, I see you. All of your feelings are super valid, even if there are what feels like 47 opposing feelings at once. Please ignore whatever you need to, and share whenever you feel like it as well. ❤️❤️❤️

[Vespasia]

I think it's difficult to avoid the both sides narrative right now when people on both sides are suffering terribly due to actions outside of their control. There was a horrific terror attack and ongoing threats as well as swift, horrific retaliation. No one wins here and only death and suffering will follow.

That said, I fully understand why some posters wouldn't want to get into an argument over history and politics. Things are raw, terrifying, and painful. People are going to be focused on their loved ones first, because they're human.

It's a terrible situation all around. I have no useful comments, just compassion for those who are hurting here and on the ground.

[Deleted]

That’s ok, I don’t need to be argued with about history or geopolitics.

But therees space enough for that conversation too if someone wishes to have it.

Otherwise it feels a little too “We can’t talk about gun control after a school shooting” to me.

[icedcoffee]

I'm here. Reading and absorbing. I really appreciate all the various points of view. The hard thing with this conflict is that there is no simple answer. Honestly, it's also really hard to come up with non simple answers.

The Palestinians and Israelis are both suffering. And Hamas is a terrorist group. And we all want both groups to be able to coexist and Hamas to go away. I think we can all agree on this.

Hugs to all who are in pain. I see you.

[sequins]

I reached out to an Israeli friend today and I was shocked that she was feeling alone and didn't hear enough words of support. I feel terrible and I didn't realize the power of reaching out so I wanted to reach out to Jewish posters here as well and tell you I'm thinking of all of you. You are loved and you are valued and I hope my voice and support add a tiny bit of light in this deep deep darkness. I pray for peace and for the innocent lives lost. This is heartbreaking.

[cap]

Because I posted in the thread specifically about Palestinians, I also want to post in here that I'm horrified at what Hamas has done, and those that support Hamas, whether directly or indirectly. I'm sorry that so many people are feeling hurt, scared, unseen, and uncared for.

[MrsAxilla]

Oct 11, 2023 19:03:33 GMT -5 cap said:

Because I posted in the thread specifically about Palestinians, I also want to post in here that I'm horrified at what Hamas has done, and those that support Hamas, whether directly or indirectly. I'm sorry that so many people are feeling hurt, scared, unseen, and uncared for.

I’m quoting you for your last line.  My twin nephews (on DH’s side) are in Israel for a gap year program and were very close to where the violence broke out.  Luckily they are both safe.  Tonight I was chatting with my non-Jewish mother and she asked if the boys were safe and said they have been thinking and praying for them and I unexpectedly burst into tears because I realized NO ONE IRL (outside of DH’s family, of course) had yet acknowledged the impact this has.  A lot of us are not okay.  My mom apologized for making me cry but I was crying because I was relieved someone else cared.  Please check on your friends.

[goldengirlz]

I didn’t know where to post this, but this seems like the de facto “support” thread.

A lot of Jewish people I know are freaking out about the rumored “global day of jihad” tomorrow. The threats don’t seem credible and mostly seemed to be stoked by right-wing media and social media frenzy based on the comments of one former Hamas leader.

But I know of multiple Jewish organizations that are closing tomorrow out of abundance of caution, from NY to California. I hate all of this.

[tiramisu]

I just want to send love and support to all of our Jewish posters. And all of our posters who have loved ones in Israel and Palestine. Nothing I say makes a real difference, I just am sending my support.

I checked in with an acquaintance in fancy class today who's Jewish and she nearly cried because I cared to check on her. It was a reminder hope important it is to just check in and let people know they have your support.

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 12, 2023 22:31:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I didn’t know where to post this, but this seems like the de facto “support” thread.

A lot of Jewish people I know are freaking out about the rumored “global day of jihad” tomorrow. The threats don’t seem credible and mostly seemed to be stoked by right-wing media and social media frenzy based on the comments of one former Hamas leader.

But I know of multiple Jewish organizations that are closing tomorrow out of abundance of caution, from NY to California. I hate all of this.

I posted in the other thread about this. My understanding is that it was intended for protests against violence against Gaza civilians but now people are posting that it’s “jihad” and this is just stoking flames and I am super concerned this will precipitate more violence against Jews and Arabs here.

[dcrunnergirl52]

Oct 13, 2023 6:05:49 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Oct 12, 2023 22:31:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I didn’t know where to post this, but this seems like the de facto “support” thread.

A lot of Jewish people I know are freaking out about the rumored “global day of jihad” tomorrow. The threats don’t seem credible and mostly seemed to be stoked by right-wing media and social media frenzy based on the comments of one former Hamas leader.

But I know of multiple Jewish organizations that are closing tomorrow out of abundance of caution, from NY to California. I hate all of this.

I posted in the other thread about this. My understanding is that it was intended for protests against violence against Gaza civilians but now people are posting that it’s “jihad” and this is just stoking flames and I am super concerned this will precipitate more violence against Jews and Arabs here.

My (Jewish) mom is flying from Boston to DC this morning, which she does every 6 weeks, and she said BOS is very heavily armed this morning--tons of "guards." She didn't say if it is police/military but just lots of men with "very big guns."

[meowmaps]

Oct 12, 2023 22:31:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I didn’t know where to post this, but this seems like the de facto “support” thread.

A lot of Jewish people I know are freaking out about the rumored “global day of jihad” tomorrow. The threats don’t seem credible and mostly seemed to be stoked by right-wing media and social media frenzy based on the comments of one former Hamas leader.

But I know of multiple Jewish organizations that are closing tomorrow out of abundance of caution, from NY to California. I hate all of this.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

DD1’s Jewish preschool is closed today due to safety concerns. She’s in public school now and DD2 is too young to enroll so I’m relieved that’s something we don’t have to navigate right now.

[pixy0stix]

I am sorry for all the hurt and fear being felt today and the last several days.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2023 6:43:45 GMT -5 dcrunnergirl52 said:

Oct 13, 2023 6:05:49 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I posted in the other thread about this. My understanding is that it was intended for protests against violence against Gaza civilians but now people are posting that it’s “jihad” and this is just stoking flames and I am super concerned this will precipitate more violence against Jews and Arabs here.

My (Jewish) mom is flying from Boston to DC this morning, which she does every 6 weeks, and she said BOS is very heavily armed this morning--tons of "guards." She didn't say if it is police/military but just lots of men with "very big guns."

Guns as in firearms, or guns as in biceps?

Men with large firearms (rifles?) at an airport seems a bit weird, considering the news is saying there haven’t been any specific or credible threats.

[janegold]

@@@@@

Our JCC, where my kids went to daycare and my son still goes to after school care, is remaining open but will have a police presence and extra security precautions today. I'm not going to lie, we are thinking of picking him up after school rather than have him go to aftercare. It might be irrational but it's a scary time, and if there's even the smallest possibility...

(And to be clear, I'm not worried about pro-Palestine protestors. But anti-Semitism is very real and I am worried there are bigoted nutjobs out there that will use this day of peaceful protest as an excuse to do something worse.)

[goldengirlz]

Oct 13, 2023 8:16:02 GMT -5 janegold said:

@@@@@

Our JCC, where my kids went to daycare and my son still goes to after school care, is remaining open but will have a police presence and extra security precautions today. I'm not going to lie, we are thinking of picking him up after school rather than have him go to aftercare. It might be irrational but it's a scary time, and if there's even the smallest possibility...

(And to be clear, I'm not worried about pro-Palestine protestors. But anti-Semitism is very real and I am worried there are bigoted nutjobs out there that will use this day of peaceful protest as an excuse to do something worse.)

Your parentheses is exactly what my friends are saying. It’s not about the protestors — but all it takes is one unhinged person looking to make headlines. Even people I consider very level-headed are unnerved.

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 13, 2023 8:16:02 GMT -5 janegold said:

@@@@@

Our JCC, where my kids went to daycare and my son still goes to after school care, is remaining open but will have a police presence and extra security precautions today. I'm not going to lie, we are thinking of picking him up after school rather than have him go to aftercare. It might be irrational but it's a scary time, and if there's even the smallest possibility...

(And to be clear, I'm not worried about pro-Palestine protestors. But anti-Semitism is very real and I am worried there are bigoted nutjobs out there that will use this day of peaceful protest as an excuse to do something worse.)

I recall there was a rise in both anti-Muslim/Arab and anti-Semitic hate crimes after 9/11. That's a huge worry as well. There shouldn't be hate crimes against either group, but even when Jews are attacked it still spawns new anti-Semitic activity.