Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (@ mentions)

[janegold]

Oct 12, 2023 14:34:02 GMT -5 rikki said:

Oct 12, 2023 14:20:43 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I have seen nobody in this thread or any others assert this. 

Every single person has condemned the violence against Israel by Hamas. 

I think every single person who has posted thus far believes that it's not ok for anybody's innocent people to be attacked.

The bias appears to be who is innocent.

I would love to know what else people think Israel should do in response?

Speaking only for myself, I think Israel has every right to defend themselves, and absolutely should not and cannot let the barbarism of Hamas go unanswered.  And I don't find bombing Gaza to be objectionable in and of itself; that is a sad part of war.  It's the civilian targets and the additional steps taken to ensure the suffering of those trapped in Gaza that I find inhumane.  And I completely agree that Hamas also has the blood of the Palestinian people on their hands.

[Saudade]

I think we understand that, on both sides, innocent lives are going to be lost. That is the consequence of war. Both sides have the right to defend themselves.

However, the explicit intent to wipe an entire subgroup of people off the planet (Gaza) is not a consequence of war.


As someone who has never been religious nor had any religious education (as I've stated many times) I will never understand the desire to have a religious homeland. I do however, believe in everyone being able to live safely, regardless of where they live.

I previously believed the "two state solution" was the correct outcome. I don't know what the answer is now, as two very opposite groups are vying for sole control of the same land. From people I've spoken to, on both sides, the average person believes in living peacefully side by side. I'm not sure how to achieve that. Maybe something similar to Lebanon...that worked for a few decades...

[fryjack2]

Hamas has had blood on its hands since its inception.

There are rules even for war, set by the world powers.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 12, 2023 14:43:51 GMT -5 janegold said:

Oct 12, 2023 14:34:02 GMT -5 rikki said:

I would love to know what else people think Israel should do in response?

Speaking only for myself, I think Israel has every right to defend themselves, and absolutely should not and cannot let the barbarism of Hamas go unanswered.  And I don't find bombing Gaza to be objectionable in and of itself; that is a sad part of war.  It's the civilian targets and the additional steps taken to ensure the suffering of those trapped in Gaza that I find inhumane.  And I completely agree that Hamas also has the blood of the Palestinian people on their hands.

Agreed, and I think most of us in this discussion would agree.

[goldengirlz]

Oct 12, 2023 14:34:02 GMT -5 rikki said:

Oct 12, 2023 14:20:43 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

I have seen nobody in this thread or any others assert this. 

Every single person has condemned the violence against Israel by Hamas. 

I think every single person who has posted thus far believes that it's not ok for anybody's innocent people to be attacked.

The bias appears to be who is innocent.

I’ll admit I’m triggered. I read a lot of this to be thinly veiled antisemitism. Some not even veiled. None from
fryjack, who I respect and appreciate all she shares.

I know I’m in a sensitive place having family and friends there and having lived there during what was less than a peaceful time. I saw some of this firsthand. It’s not easy.

I would love to know what else people think Israel should do in response? Allow another Holocaust? I don’t really feel like there is any other real response that will have any impact, as much as I hate this one. And this one won’t change anything, honestly though, so maybe I’m just kidding myself.

There’s a line floating around in a lot of news articles about how Israel once exchanged 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for one captured Israeli solider.

I’m also feeling very triggered this week (as another Jew with family in Israel) but I would hope (perhaps too idealistically) that there are diplomatic negotiations also happening behind the scenes. The problem is Hamas equally wants nothing short of the complete destruction of Israel. But if past history is an indicator, Israel will do A LOT to save even one Jew. There has to be a way besides killing Palestinian children to at least get the civilians released. But I know that’s not the utopia we live in right now. It’s terror and bloodlust from the people in charge on both sides — and why it feels hopeless.

[pixy0stix]

Updates as of today - www.pbs.org/newshour/world/as-desperation-in-gaza-grows-israel-says-it-wont-allow-aid-to-flow-until-hamas-releases-hostages

[underwaterrhymes]

All of it is horrible. We can hold the innocent Israelis and Palestinians in our hearts at the same time. We can say Hamas is evil and Netanyahu is evil at the same time. We can say it is a war crime to rape women and slaughter people at a music festival and that it is also a war crime to deny food, water, electricity and medical care to children. All of these things are true.

The fear and fury that many Jews around the world are feeling is understandable because anti-semitism is on the rise and this attack by Hamas was horrific and unimaginable and vicious. But Palestinians are not Hamas, and they have been forced to live in a small, open air prison without the ability to have a voice in elections for 17 years. Hamas is violating them too and when all of their resources are cut off and they have nowhere they can go while they are being bombed in the efforts to wipe out Hamas, it’s also completely understandable that Palestinians around the world feel fear and fury too.

I don’t know what the answer is. It’s all horrible. All of it.

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2023 15:50:41 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

All of it is horrible. We can hold the innocent Israelis and Palestinians in our hearts at the same time. We can say Hamas is evil and Netanyahu is evil at the same time.

Why is it Hamas & Netanyahu? He might wish to be but he actually isn’t a dictator.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 12, 2023 16:11:16 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Oct 12, 2023 15:50:41 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

All of it is horrible. We can hold the innocent Israelis and Palestinians in our hearts at the same time. We can say Hamas is evil and Netanyahu is evil at the same time.

Why is it Hamas & Netanyahu? He might wish to be but he actually isn’t a dictator.

Was the US as a whole responsible for everything that Trump did?

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2023 16:14:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:11:16 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Why is it Hamas & Netanyahu? He might wish to be but he actually isn’t a dictator.

Was the US as a whole responsible for everything that Trump did?

Nope but where did I say the whole of Israel is responsible? There’s still more to it than a singular person.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 12, 2023 16:17:42 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:14:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Was the US as a whole responsible for everything that Trump did?

Nope but where did I say the whole of Israel is responsible? There’s still more to it than a singular person.

This is what you're insinuating, and because you're new, it's really hard to read where you're coming from. Even if you're someone who we know and are here under a new name we (general) don't know that.

[underwaterrhymes]

Oct 12, 2023 16:11:16 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Oct 12, 2023 15:50:41 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

All of it is horrible. We can hold the innocent Israelis and Palestinians in our hearts at the same time. We can say Hamas is evil and Netanyahu is evil at the same time.

Why is it Hamas & Netanyahu? He might wish to be but he actually isn’t a dictator.

There is a lot more I could have added as obviously Netanyahu isn’t acting alone. But the intention was to make it clear that Hamas is not Palestine and Netanyahu is not Israel.

[goldengirlz]

Why is this topic bringing out so many new members?

I welcome new viewpoints but when you’re coming in out of the woodwork, and red hot on a charged topic, and especially if you’re spewing garbage EITHER about Israel OR the Palestinians — I can’t help but think you’re a troll or a regular who doesn’t want to show your true colors and hiding behind a throwaway account.

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2023 16:22:28 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:11:16 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Why is it Hamas & Netanyahu? He might wish to be but he actually isn’t a dictator.

There is a lot more I could have added as obviously Netanyahu isn’t acting alone. But the intention was to make it clear that Hamas is not Palestine and Netanyahu is not Israel.

Sorry, I think your post was well thought out and had balance. And I don’t think you personally meant it that way I have just been seeing everywhere else that has wording to imply Netanyahu is doing it all.

[laladypoet]

I honestly don't see THAT many new people? I'm just a long-time lurker, certainly not a troll. and why do you think the new people have garbage opinions?

[goldengirlz]

Oct 12, 2023 16:31:00 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I honestly don't see THAT many new people? I'm just a long-time lurker, certainly not a troll. and why do you think the new people have garbage opinions?

How about the person who said 80% of Gazans are Hamas for starters?

[laladypoet]

Oct 12, 2023 16:31:58 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:31:00 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I honestly don't see THAT many new people? I'm just a long-time lurker, certainly not a troll. and why do you think the new people have garbage opinions?

How about the person who said 80% of Gazans are Hamas for starters?

ok yes. I thought you meant all new people.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 12, 2023 16:33:23 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:31:58 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

How about the person who said 80% of Gazans are Hamas for starters?

ok yes. I thought you meant all new people.

And you're not new, lol!

[goldengirlz]

Oct 12, 2023 16:33:23 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:31:58 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

How about the person who said 80% of Gazans are Hamas for starters?

ok yes. I thought you meant all new people.

She wasn’t the only one who I’m suspicious about. You’re not new though.

ETA: This happens regularly enough that I’m beginning to think this topic is just a bat-signal for people (on both sides of the issue) to come in with their alt-selves so they can speak more boldly than they otherwise would.

[Deleted]

I know laladypoet though we haven’t posted on the same forum for years (gbck). Honestly not trolling but if my posts are upsetting others I won’t post. I get how it looks cause I’m only here to have discussion on this subject

[cap]

Oct 12, 2023 16:35:23 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:33:23 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

ok yes. I thought you meant all new people.

She wasn’t the only one who I’m suspicious about. You’re not new though.

ETA: This happens regularly enough that I’m beginning to think this topic is just a bat-signal for people (on both sides of the issue) to come in with their alt-selves so they can speak more boldly than they otherwise would.

Legit, non-snarky question - am I one of the people that’s arousing suspicion? Yesterday, I purposefully didn’t say anything on this post to directly condemn Hamas, because I didn’t think this thread was necessarily the place for that. But I absolutely think Hamas is doing horrible things, too.

[goldengirlz]

Oct 12, 2023 17:59:31 GMT -5 cap said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:35:23 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

She wasn’t the only one who I’m suspicious about. You’re not new though.

ETA: This happens regularly enough that I’m beginning to think this topic is just a bat-signal for people (on both sides of the issue) to come in with their alt-selves so they can speak more boldly than they otherwise would.

Legit, non-snarky question - am I one of the people that’s arousing suspicion? Yesterday, I purposefully didn’t say anything on this post to directly condemn Hamas, because I didn’t think this thread was necessarily the place for that. But I absolutely think Hamas is doing horrible things, too.

Unless people have been calling you (general you) out for what you’re posting, then no.

I’m not trying to silence anyone (unless you’re a bigot.) I’m just saying it’s … curious.

[bugandbibs]

I am struggling to put my thoughts into words that won’t add to the hurt on both sides.

I think there is a very real difference between war and genocide. There are general rules to engagement and there is a point where defending yourself can turn into war crimes and that should be condemned even if the war itself is justified. I don’t have the answers but only bad things happen when we stop seeing people as human beings.

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2023 16:29:04 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Oct 12, 2023 16:22:28 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

There is a lot more I could have added as obviously Netanyahu isn’t acting alone. But the intention was to make it clear that Hamas is not Palestine and Netanyahu is not Israel.

Sorry, I think your post was well thought out and had balance. And I don’t think you personally meant it that way I have just been seeing everywhere else that has wording to imply Netanyahu is doing it all.

The wording of journalists/media continues to be problematic. There’s been many call outs especially with the killed/died differences.

but still there are headlines like this ‘France orders ban on all pro-Palestinian protests.
French Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin looks to clamp down on antisemitism after Hamas’ terror attacks in Israel.’

Pro-Palestine protests is not antisemitism.

[Velar Fricative]

Israel has just warned over a million Palestinians in northern Gaza to evacuate within 24 hours. Okay but where they fuck are they going?

Gift link, sorry for the long link: www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/13/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza?unlocked_article_code=FXDZVn6VaFIjxVuNOuEk2VpG8kq33wqLh4u_ce7vcWcjuPXBXOUCr7Gf4kB1wFNh70yfwuJ-MEjxTvl1fhslDy7Y-7tPpjWkI-ty5xsuYo3BWP9tZb05Vm2sB2ZjgXIZQp46DWEeP1cibSycp1xEzi06DgXvIVIVB4IdfNFy74PG0UyVaLzwlc5ccKHt_BapBbjmnTs5E36gnuSkpPe2IYUan2gWBAobSuMeD3F9GR0Ax3-0OII42DsClg3sDeJlf87QRrVPhyrkqIRpSvwfV9UDV2lDTcB9nWi0tKbE3M7AnjPEIQf1mNN94r3Wjvb2Aa_elV4Ny1KT6dDe09N9RigZ6TPTCg&smid=url-share

[Velar Fricative]

Also, I am not quite sure where to put this so I’ll stick it here, but I am deeply uncomfortable with the local actions and rhetoric here in NYC. Every active NYPD officer must be in uniform today. People on social media are acting like fools as usual and spreading misinformation about “global jihad” happening today. This is just out of control at this point and all I feel it is doing is alienating the thousands of Arab, Muslim and/or Palestinian American residents who live here.

@@@

My kids’ school also has sizable Jewish and Arab/Muslim populations so I have no idea what to expect today. Will people who I feel shouldn’t be worried at all keep their kids home as people are saying (one idiot said or course something will happen, it’s Friday the 13th…). Or, more likely and understandable, will Jewish and Arab families keep their kids home for their personal safety? And then for how long? What a nightmare. Obviously this is a war with very global implications but the whole situation locally is just reminding me of post-9/11, but I think a lot of it is being influenced by some really uncomfortably strong rhetoric from electeds especially (very much good vs. evil-like rhetoric without clarifying that Palestinian civilians are not evil).

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2023 5:53:54 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Israel has just warned over a million Palestinians in northern Gaza to evacuate within 24 hours. Okay but where they fuck are they going?

Gift link, sorry for the long link: www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/13/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza?unlocked_article_code=FXDZVn6VaFIjxVuNOuEk2VpG8kq33wqLh4u_ce7vcWcjuPXBXOUCr7Gf4kB1wFNh70yfwuJ-MEjxTvl1fhslDy7Y-7tPpjWkI-ty5xsuYo3BWP9tZb05Vm2sB2ZjgXIZQp46DWEeP1cibSycp1xEzi06DgXvIVIVB4IdfNFy74PG0UyVaLzwlc5ccKHt_BapBbjmnTs5E36gnuSkpPe2IYUan2gWBAobSuMeD3F9GR0Ax3-0OII42DsClg3sDeJlf87QRrVPhyrkqIRpSvwfV9UDV2lDTcB9nWi0tKbE3M7AnjPEIQf1mNN94r3Wjvb2Aa_elV4Ny1KT6dDe09N9RigZ6TPTCg&smid=url-share

And how exactly do 1.1 million people be told they need to move when you’ve taken away their electricity?

They don’t care, this is genocide.

[seeyalater52]

Oct 13, 2023 7:00:30 GMT -5 @iceblink said:

Oct 13, 2023 5:53:54 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Israel has just warned over a million Palestinians in northern Gaza to evacuate within 24 hours. Okay but where they fuck are they going?

Gift link, sorry for the long link: www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/13/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza?unlocked_article_code=FXDZVn6VaFIjxVuNOuEk2VpG8kq33wqLh4u_ce7vcWcjuPXBXOUCr7Gf4kB1wFNh70yfwuJ-MEjxTvl1fhslDy7Y-7tPpjWkI-ty5xsuYo3BWP9tZb05Vm2sB2ZjgXIZQp46DWEeP1cibSycp1xEzi06DgXvIVIVB4IdfNFy74PG0UyVaLzwlc5ccKHt_BapBbjmnTs5E36gnuSkpPe2IYUan2gWBAobSuMeD3F9GR0Ax3-0OII42DsClg3sDeJlf87QRrVPhyrkqIRpSvwfV9UDV2lDTcB9nWi0tKbE3M7AnjPEIQf1mNN94r3Wjvb2Aa_elV4Ny1KT6dDe09N9RigZ6TPTCg&smid=url-share

And how exactly do 1.1 million people be told they need to move when you’ve taken away their electricity?

They don’t care, this is genocide.

It’s a show of going through the motions and daring any ally, especially the US to call them out. Which we won’t. Pretending to be offering relief like evacuations when there is no reasonable path to do so or place to evacuate to especially on short notice for a million plus people does not make this better. To the extent that any communications are even getting to Palestinians in Gaza I assume this sounds more like “prepare to die in X hours” than a sincere offer to leave.

[basilosaurus]

If it's global jihad, and America is waking up as the rest of us are going to sleep, with no attacks, I'd say that's a decent sign it's not global.

But I don't doubt there are magats wanting to sow discord and chaos violently. Hasn't most anti semitic violence been done by christians and not Muslims (eta n America)?

[underwaterrhymes]

While I think that a lot of the calls for global jihad are fake and likely posted by people trying to sow discord and to ramp up both anti-Semitic and Islamophobic sentiments than anyone actually planning something, I also don’t blame Jewish or Muslim people for feeling frightened or for synagogues, mosques, or religious schools and other institutions increasing security. We don’t have to look far to find deep hatred and recent terroristic acts against both groups.