@ @ Alabama SCOTUS - embryo ruling

[neverfstop]

Alabama Supreme Court Rules That Frozen Embryos Are 'Children'

In a theology-heavy ruling, the Alabama Supreme Court will allow a couple to sue for the "wrongful death" of their frozen embryos obtained through IVF.

www.huffpost.com/entry/alabama-ruling-frozen-embryos-children_n_65d29a77e4b043f1c0aba2b9


The ruling pointed to the Alabama Constitution Section 36.06, which argues that each person was made in God’s image, meaning each life has an incalculable value that “cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God.”



“Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life ― that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory,” the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

[ellipses84]

This is insane. I can see suing for damages in the case of the accidental destruction of property but wrongful death or murder? This is a slippery slope. What are they going to do with all the extra embryos sitting in storage? Keep them in storage forever? Force random women to carry them? How would they tell if an embryo in storage too long “died” naturally if it was never actually alive and you can’t unfreeze it to see if it is viable unless you are going to use it?

I know people in the IVF community who were devastated when Roe v Wade was overturned for this reason. They saw the writing on the wall. I feel like if there were some sudden birth shortage like in Handmaids Tale we wouldn’t be that far from the dystopian reality.

[pixy0stix]

This is going to have serious repurcussions for all infertility procedures.

[nsl]

The irony of saying that life, “cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God” just weeks after implementing a new method of execution so the state of Alabama can get back to killing everyone they have on death row is... something.

[penguingrrl]

I knew this was going to happen after Dobbs, but the fact that Christian theology was cited in the ruling is fucking chilling.

[scm1011]

I have a lot of feeling about this. When the writing was on the wall about Dobbs I feared/anticipated this and donated my 4 remaining perfect embryos to science. I had a lot of anxiety about the choice being stripped from me. In the last year I’ve felt sad because I think we would have gone for a 3rd child if we still had these embryos. Going through IVF again is not on the table (also I’m 42 now, my embryos were created when I was 34).

Fuck the GOP.

[icedcoffee]

This is so fucking insane. I am speechless.

[neverfstop]

scm1011, That's heartbreaking, I'm so sorry.

I can't even fathom all the issues around this and the deep heartache this will cause so many people.

[shopgirl07]

Yep. And trying to outlaw birth control is next. We’re in a crisis here and voting for Republicans is pure misogyny.

[aurora]

Feb 19, 2024 16:02:42 GMT -5 JayhawkGirl said:

If you have embryos to consider, you’ve been through the hell of infertility and do not need this on top of that

Yeah, I have a loved one in this boat (fortunately not in Alabama) and it just breaks my heart to think what if she had to deal with this on top of everything she's been through in the last 4 years. I can't even imagine what everyone suffering from infertility in AL is going through tonight.

[sonrisa]

The idea that this case can go forward given the facts is particularly mind blowing.

If you can sue a hospital for wrongful death when a patient gets out of control and destroys your embryos, then surely you can sue the entire Alabama government, education system, the gun shop and the gun manufacturer if a gunman does the same to actual children at a school, right? Right?

[sent]

Why is there all this "God" stuff in the Alabama constitution?

What happened to separation of church and state? Maybe someone should sue the state for an unconstitutional constitution.

IANAL (I finally learned this one this week hahaha.)

[wise_rita]

Feb 19, 2024 16:02:42 GMT -5 JayhawkGirl said:

If you have embryos to consider, you’ve been through the hell of infertility and do not need this on top of that

QFT

In the short term, can people transfer their embryos out of state?  Is this even practical?

At some point Americans are going to need to export their embryos to Canada or Mexico for safe keeping, much like they will have to for abortions.

[definitelyO]

it's just so obscene - I just can't get my head around it except it still comes down to controlling a woman and her choices.

[Jalapeñomel]

Feb 20, 2024 14:32:16 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Feb 19, 2024 16:02:42 GMT -5 JayhawkGirl said:

If you have embryos to consider, you’ve been through the hell of infertility and do not need this on top of that

QFT

In the short term, can people transfer their embryos out of state?  Is this even practical?

At some point Americans are going to need to export their embryos to Canada or Mexico for safe keeping, much like they will have to for abortions.

Yes you can move the embryos.

So folks in Alabama can claim embryos on their tax returns?

[wanderingback]

Feb 20, 2024 14:32:16 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Feb 19, 2024 16:02:42 GMT -5 JayhawkGirl said:

If you have embryos to consider, you’ve been through the hell of infertility and do not need this on top of that

QFT

In the short term, can people transfer their embryos out of state?  Is this even practical?

At some point Americans are going to need to export their embryos to Canada or Mexico for safe keeping, much like they will have to for abortions.

Yes you can store embryos different places. People do this for a variety of reasons already.

Also, I hate to judge anyone but the couple who brought about this case are getting the side eye from me in regards to not thinking about unintended consequences (or maybe they are hoping their case does have further implications in case law that protects the "unborn", ugh)

ETA: I see it was actually 3 couples who brought the wrongful death case. I suspect they knew exactly what they were doing and the implications. I’m not a lawyer but I’m sure there were other civil charges they could’ve used for the accident such as negligence or something else instead of an act against a minor. I am not at all surprised about this unfortunately.

[sonrisa]

Did fertility clinics in Alabama shut down egg retrieval and fertilization procedures today?

[AAM2012]

Feb 20, 2024 16:27:41 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Feb 20, 2024 14:32:16 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

QFT

In the short term, can people transfer their embryos out of state?  Is this even practical?

At some point Americans are going to need to export their embryos to Canada or Mexico for safe keeping, much like they will have to for abortions.

Yes you can move the embryos.

So folks in Alabama can claim embryos on their tax returns?

What about child support?

[beetea]

Feb 21, 2024 7:55:34 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 20, 2024 16:27:41 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Yes you can move the embryos.

So folks in Alabama can claim embryos on their tax returns?

What about child support?

Not to mention child care costs for embryo storage.

[shauni27]

I was aghast when I read this over the weekend. So fucked.

As someone who donated my embryos to science after having S, would I have been charged? This is absurd.

[turboteal]

Feb 21, 2024 0:28:58 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Did fertility clinics in Alabama shut down egg retrieval and fertilization procedures today?

I heard on NPR that UAB, a major medical system/ provider for the state, has stopped IVF procedures for now due to this ruling. They will still do egg retrieval but no fertilizations I believe.

[pinkplasticdoll]

Before the Dobbs Decision our abortion fund discussed this as we have an abortion provider on our board and we knew that this was going to happen so we have made a plan for when this trickles into our state because it will happen. I hated at that time that we had to prepare but now i am thankful we did.

[basilosaurus]

I had some pretty extreme friends in college. They were so convinced of personhood at conception they claimed ivf would result in actual murder.

Guess how many of them adopted embryos. If you've guessed zero you get a prize!

This decision is chilling.

[sonrisa]

Feb 21, 2024 21:35:02 GMT -5 turboteal said:

Feb 21, 2024 0:28:58 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Did fertility clinics in Alabama shut down egg retrieval and fertilization procedures today?

I heard on NPR that UAB, a major medical system/ provider for the state, has stopped IVF procedures for now due to this ruling. They will still do egg retrieval but no fertilizations I believe.

yes - I just saw that too. No fertilization, no embryo development and no implantation of current embryos.

[pumpkin]

Feb 19, 2024 15:55:32 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I knew this was going to happen after Dobbs, but the fact that Christian theology was cited in the ruling is fucking chilling.

This!
And I’m so mad because a minor celebrity I’m aware of is all over social media talking about how awful this is, etc, yet at the same
time was a huge supporter of Dobbs and was all over discussing that “victory.” Their inability to understand how one got us the other makes me want to throw things.

[icedcoffee]

Hearing all these news people keep saying “these embryos need to be implanted” drives me crazy. It’s transferred. Implanted is only something that happens to the 30% who are lucky enough. If you’re going to be an asshole who thinks embryo= child at least use the correct terminology. /end rant

[pixy0stix]

Feb 22, 2024 5:48:28 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

Feb 19, 2024 15:55:32 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I knew this was going to happen after Dobbs, but the fact that Christian theology was cited in the ruling is fucking chilling.

This!
And I’m so mad because a minor celebrity I’m aware of is all over social media talking about how awful this is, etc, yet at the same
time was a huge supporter of Dobbs and was all over discussing that “victory.” Their inability to understand how one got us the other makes me want to throw things.

Frankly, most people have no idea what happens during infertility procedures. So the "Christians" who have been taught to believe abortion is bad have never fully thought through all the implications. There's probably a lot of people realizing now how this personally impacts them vs just a nebulous concept that has never impacted them.

[wanderingback]

Feb 22, 2024 8:48:40 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Feb 22, 2024 5:48:28 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

This!
And I’m so mad because a minor celebrity I’m aware of is all over social media talking about how awful this is, etc, yet at the same
time was a huge supporter of Dobbs and was all over discussing that “victory.” Their inability to understand how one got us the other makes me want to throw things.

Frankly, most people have no idea what happens during infertility procedures. So the "Christians" who have been taught to believe abortion is bad have never fully thought through all the implications. There's probably a lot of people realizing now how this personally impacts them vs just a nebulous concept that has never impacted them.

Yep. Same with abortion. There are abortion protestors who go and have their abortions and then go back to protesting so it never ceases to amaze me the mental games people play with themselves that then fucks over other people.

[pixy0stix]

The morning news here is running this story with heavy emphasis on how this has stopped all infertility procedures in Alabama.

[Velar Fricative]

Feb 20, 2024 20:08:42 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Feb 20, 2024 14:32:16 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

QFT

In the short term, can people transfer their embryos out of state?  Is this even practical?

At some point Americans are going to need to export their embryos to Canada or Mexico for safe keeping, much like they will have to for abortions.

Yes you can store embryos different places. People do this for a variety of reasons already.

Also, I hate to judge anyone but the couple who brought about this case are getting the side eye from me in regards to not thinking about unintended consequences (or maybe they are hoping their case does have further implications in case law that protects the "unborn", ugh)

ETA: I see it was actually 3 couples who brought the wrongful death case. I suspect they knew exactly what they were doing and the implications. I’m not a lawyer but I’m sure there were other civil charges they could’ve used for the accident such as negligence or something else instead of an act against a minor. I am not at all surprised about this unfortunately.

I've been thinking a lot about the couples involved too. They probably are shying away from media attention right now and aren't telling their story yet (from what I can tell), but I do feel some kind of way that they were able to have the children they desperately wanted but now the rug has been pulled out from anyone else in Alabama who need or expected to need IVF to grow their family. Even if they themselves might have been naive enough initially to not believe it could go this far, their lawyers knew exactly what they were doing and I don't believe they would have kept their clients in the dark. It's the GOP way - "I got mine, fuck everyone else." 

There were probably patients at UAB in the middle of IVF cycles preparing for transfer as we speak. It's absolutely heartbreaking to think about.