@ @ Alabama SCOTUS - embryo ruling

[AAM2012]

Feb 24, 2024 18:52:01 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Feb 23, 2024 10:29:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

For sure. There was absolutely a lawsuit here. The grounds they chose, however... well, I have nothing good to say about any of the people involved so I'll stop there.

I’m not in agreement at what they did by any means but am curious on the responses to sue.

If the embryos were considered property before this case, what would you except the clinic to pay you for? Another round of retrieval?

[wanderingback]

Feb 25, 2024 22:19:10 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 24, 2024 18:52:01 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

For sure. There was absolutely a lawsuit here. The grounds they chose, however... well, I have nothing good to say about any of the people involved so I'll stop there.

I’m not in agreement at what they did by any means but am curious on the responses to sue.

If the embryos were considered property before this case, what would you except the clinic to pay you for? Another round of retrieval?

This certainly isn’t the first time that eggs or embryos have unfortunately been destroyed. People do sue for damages.
Here is one such case, the people involved were awarded $15 million by the company who made the tank that caused the temperature to fail - thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/longevity/558284-patients-awarded-15-million-after-fertility-clinic/amp/

[pixy0stix]

Feb 25, 2024 22:19:10 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 24, 2024 18:52:01 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

For sure. There was absolutely a lawsuit here. The grounds they chose, however... well, I have nothing good to say about any of the people involved so I'll stop there.

I’m not in agreement at what they did by any means but am curious on the responses to sue.

If the embryos were considered property before this case, what would you except the clinic to pay you for? Another round of retrieval?

Really? You wouldn't sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, which doesn't include time and emotional distress? Plus damages to your body from the drugs, and the loss of possibly your only chance of biological children? Don't go the route of dismissing a case because of the outcome. They absolutely had a strong case before they entered crazy town.

For us, we would have had to spend close to $200k to maybe have had a procedure that ended with a single embryo. We chose to stop our first round before retrieval since no eggs were produced. That one round alone used $60k worth of drugs to prep for retrieval.

So no, one "free" round for us would have done shit all.

[AAM2012]

Feb 26, 2024 8:48:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Feb 25, 2024 22:19:10 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

I’m not in agreement at what they did by any means but am curious on the responses to sue.

If the embryos were considered property before this case, what would you except the clinic to pay you for? Another round of retrieval?

Really? You wouldn't sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, which doesn't include time and emotional distress? Plus damages to your body from the drugs, and the loss of possibly your only chance of biological children? Don't go the route of dismissing a case because of the outcome. They absolutely had a strong case before they entered crazy town.

For us, we would have had to spend close to $200k to maybe have had a procedure that ended with a single embryo. We chose to stop our first round before retrieval since no eggs were produced. That one round alone used $60k worth of drugs to prep for retrieval.

So no, one "free" round for us would have done shit all.

I genuinely was asking what people would ask for given that we are saying that humanhood shouldn’t be part of the equation.

Like what would be an acceptable settlement amount.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Feb 25, 2024 22:19:10 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 24, 2024 18:52:01 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

For sure. There was absolutely a lawsuit here. The grounds they chose, however... well, I have nothing good to say about any of the people involved so I'll stop there.

I’m not in agreement at what they did by any means but am curious on the responses to sue.

If the embryos were considered property before this case, what would you except the clinic to pay you for? Another round of retrieval?

At a *minimum*, I would think their damages would be their out-of-pocket expenses for creating whatever was destroyed. Probably plus whatever expenses would be needed to essentially re-create what was destroyed. Those are their quantifiable damages. I've never been through it, but from what I understand, this alone would likely be well into 6 figures.

And that's not even touching on anything punitive or anything for any physical or mental distress.

[icedcoffee]

Feb 26, 2024 8:57:52 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 26, 2024 8:48:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Really? You wouldn't sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, which doesn't include time and emotional distress? Plus damages to your body from the drugs, and the loss of possibly your only chance of biological children? Don't go the route of dismissing a case because of the outcome. They absolutely had a strong case before they entered crazy town.

For us, we would have had to spend close to $200k to maybe have had a procedure that ended with a single embryo. We chose to stop our first round before retrieval since no eggs were produced. That one round alone used $60k worth of drugs to prep for retrieval.

So no, one "free" round for us would have done shit all.

I genuinely was asking what people would ask for given that we are saying that humanhood shouldn’t be part of the equation.

Like what would be an acceptable settlement amount.

My kids are both IVF kids.  I'd probably want reimbursement of all fertility treatment costs to date, free treatment for all future fertility treatments to complete my family and an amount to cover emotional distress.  Not sure how that's valued, maybe $100k?  

[basilosaurus]

Feb 25, 2024 22:19:10 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 24, 2024 18:52:01 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

For sure. There was absolutely a lawsuit here. The grounds they chose, however... well, I have nothing good to say about any of the people involved so I'll stop there.

I’m not in agreement at what they did by any means but am curious on the responses to sue.

If the embryos were considered property before this case, what would you except the clinic to pay you for? Another round of retrieval?

Probably milions. You have sunk costs and time, plus the physical effects on the body and the roller coaster of emotions during IVF and whatever likely preceeded it. It could take many more rounds, sometimes years, to achieve viable embryos, so to one round especially at the clinic that royally fucked up. Fucked up so badly they deserve hefty punitive fines.

How does one even quantify the negligent loss of future children? For some, this may have been their last chance.

There's nothing wrong with suing the clinic for their massive fuckup. It's just not a wrongful death situation.

[pixy0stix]

Feb 26, 2024 8:57:52 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 26, 2024 8:48:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Really? You wouldn't sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, which doesn't include time and emotional distress? Plus damages to your body from the drugs, and the loss of possibly your only chance of biological children? Don't go the route of dismissing a case because of the outcome. They absolutely had a strong case before they entered crazy town.

For us, we would have had to spend close to $200k to maybe have had a procedure that ended with a single embryo. We chose to stop our first round before retrieval since no eggs were produced. That one round alone used $60k worth of drugs to prep for retrieval.

So no, one "free" round for us would have done shit all.

I genuinely was asking what people would ask for given that we are saying that humanhood shouldn’t be part of the equation.

Like what would be an acceptable settlement amount.

A couple of million per embryo seems about right. Or at least I wouldn't have blinked at that amount.

[wanderingback]

Feb 26, 2024 8:57:52 GMT -5 AAM2012 said:

Feb 26, 2024 8:48:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Really? You wouldn't sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, which doesn't include time and emotional distress? Plus damages to your body from the drugs, and the loss of possibly your only chance of biological children? Don't go the route of dismissing a case because of the outcome. They absolutely had a strong case before they entered crazy town.

For us, we would have had to spend close to $200k to maybe have had a procedure that ended with a single embryo. We chose to stop our first round before retrieval since no eggs were produced. That one round alone used $60k worth of drugs to prep for retrieval.

So no, one "free" round for us would have done shit all.

I genuinely was asking what people would ask for given that we are saying that humanhood shouldn’t be part of the equation.

Like what would be an acceptable settlement amount.

I don’t think there is a specific amount. Like the article I linked they got 15 million.

I also think it depends on why the error occurred. It’s still unclear to me how the person entered the facility to get the embryos in this case. Did they dress up as a worker and steal
Someone’s key? Or did they just walk right in there? To me that does make a difference in responsibility. Like what systems did they have in place or were there none?

Also, for me personally it would depend on if those were my only embryos and hadn’t used any or been successful or if they were just in storage after having a child. I thought we might do IVF but we only want 1 kid and we had 1 kid (not by IVF), but we did talk about storage/donation if we needed to do IVF. I personally would sue for a lot less if I already had my kid but I would still want to sue for damages so that the facility would take seriously any safety kr security concerns that caused the breech.

Now if I didn’t have any kids yet from the embryos (or if I was storing eggs to use in the future), I really don’t think I could put a price on that, definitely millions (people might not be able or willing to go through the embryo process again so I don’t think can put a price on changing someone’s life like that).

I’m a pretty logical person, so that is how I would think about it.

[pixy0stix]

From what I could piece together, the storage area was unsecured and the patient wandered in to play Jurassic Park with the embryos. The patient freezer burned their hands and dropped the embryos.

[picksthemusic]

From what I'm seeing, folks are now saying that it's also a way to keep LGBTQIA+ folks from being able to start families, and for people to not be able to be single parents, or become pregnant in any other way than PIV sex.

So.

[dove]

Another thing to consider when considering an appropriate compensation is that a woman’s fertility is linked to age. What if those embryos were created when she was younger and now she can no longer create embryos? The door may be closed for some people due to age, or fertility preservation for cancer, etc.

[basilosaurus]

Did you all see Tommy Tuberville saying he agrees with the decision because we need more babies. So, not only is he an asshole, he's a real fucking moron. The journalists did pressure him that IVF *is* a way to make more babies, and that many clinics have suspended their services due to the ruling. He couldn't really respond which would be funny if it were so fucking enraging.

[gretchenindisguise]

Feb 26, 2024 12:21:19 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Did you all see Tommy Tuberville saying he agrees with the decision because we need more babies. So, not only is he an asshole, he's a real fucking moron. The journalists did pressure him that IVF *is* a way to make more babies, and that many clinics have suspended their services due to the ruling. He couldn't really respond which would be funny if it were so fucking enraging.

Yes. It was linked up thread. He's a tool.

[livinitup]

Thats the whole point ESF was making with a negligence claim. Yes, embryos are worth a million dollars to a couple that engaged in services to create and store them. How do you prove that in court for a judgement? On an actuary table? Courts don’t care that your family’s $15 or $15,000 heirloom ring is worth a million dollars to you. When a place is negligent in storing it and it gets destroyed, the COURT does not pay you what you lost emotionally, they don’t often pay what you lost in actual value that you can prove with paperwork - that’s for the insurance company. Reforms have tied the hands of juries to STOP big dollar verdicts or even fair verdicts. That’s why the families were going for “wrongful death” and not negligence. If the court deemed the embryos are property = negligence. If the court deemed the embryos are “children” = wrongful death. This was just step #1 to be able to sue for big dollars because a negligence case is not going to do it. Now, the families can sue for wrongful death of a child(ren).

If you want to be really outraged, look at actuary tables on a wrongful death case. If a big earner dies, the family gets more money than if a low earner dies because it’s literally tied to the estimated future wages of the victim who died. Because the wrongful death robbed the family of those future earnings.

[wanderingback]

Feb 26, 2024 15:43:25 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Thats the whole point ESF was making with a negligence claim. Yes, embryos are worth a million dollars to a couple that engaged in services to create and store them. How do you prove that in court for a judgement? On an actuary table? Courts don’t care that your family’s $15 or $15,000 heirloom ring is worth a million dollars to you. When a place is negligent in storing it and it gets destroyed, the COURT does not pay you what you lost emotionally, they don’t often pay what you lost in actual value that you can prove with paperwork - that’s for the insurance company. Reforms have tied the hands of juries to STOP big dollar verdicts or even fair verdicts. That’s why the families were going for “wrongful death” and not negligence. If the court deemed the embryos are property = negligence. If the court deemed the embryos are “children” = wrongful death. This was just step #1 to be able to sue for big dollars because a negligence case is not going to do it. Now, the families can sue for wrongful death of a child(ren).

If you want to be really outraged, look at actuary tables on a wrongful death case. If a big earner dies, the family gets more money than if a low earner dies because it’s literally tied to the estimated future wages of the victim who died. Because the wrongful death robbed the family of those future earnings.

I obviously don’t know the legal terms but people have been awarded millions, see article I linked above. I don’t know how they reached that number or the legal terms they used, but people have gotten millions for cases involving embryos or eggs that were destroyed.

[livinitup]

wanderingback In California

[wanderingback]

Feb 26, 2024 16:33:06 GMT -5 livinitup said:

wanderingback In California

Ohh I thought your post was just in general, like nationwide. I understand now that you specifically talking about Alabama!

[basilosaurus]

Feb 26, 2024 16:33:06 GMT -5 livinitup said:

wanderingback In California

we get that. I was responding to the hypothetical if what we would expect, not what is likely in a place like Alabama. One free cycle is far from adequate even there.

At minimum refund for all money already paid and all future costs anywhere I chose to go because I'd never go back to that particular clinic.

[basilosaurus]

Feb 26, 2024 12:30:10 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Feb 26, 2024 12:21:19 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Did you all see Tommy Tuberville saying he agrees with the decision because we need more babies. So, not only is he an asshole, he's a real fucking moron. The journalists did pressure him that IVF *is* a way to make more babies, and that many clinics have suspended their services due to the ruling. He couldn't really respond which would be funny if it were so fucking enraging.

Yes. It was linked up thread. He's a tool.

Oh, missed that. Sorry.

It's still worth repeating his a moronic fucking asshole in this and all things

[pixy0stix]

FL pauses personhood bill - wapo.st/3wwxhMc

Fucking fuckers. The fact that they didn't think through all the implications... GAH!

[mrsukyankee]

Feb 26, 2024 23:14:05 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FL pauses personhood bill - wapo.st/3wwxhMc

Fucking fuckers. The fact that they didn't think through all the implications... GAH!

Or they did but then saw the backlash that is happening elsewhere...

[basilosaurus]

Feb 27, 2024 2:23:26 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

Feb 26, 2024 23:14:05 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FL pauses personhood bill - wapo.st/3wwxhMc

Fucking fuckers. The fact that they didn't think through all the implications... GAH!

Or they did but then saw the backlash that is happening elsewhere...

Bingo. Personhood was on the ballot in CO way back in I think 2008 where it was roundly defeated 3:1 iirc. Even back then we were shouting about how it would affect IVF and various forms of birth control. Reasonable people might have said, oh shit, didn't think of that, and voted against it.

The GOP of 2008 and 2024 are not reasonable people. They just have amassed much more judicial and gubernatorial power now.

[livinitup]

Feb 26, 2024 23:14:05 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FL pauses personhood bill - wapo.st/3wwxhMc

Fucking fuckers. The fact that they didn't think through all the implications... GAH!

“Silverberg depicted a scenario where an embryologist accidentally drops a dish of embryos and destroys its contents. “Is my embryologist going to be charged with murder, manslaughter?’” he asked the lawmaker, who in turn was “flabbergasted” because he hadn’t realized the measure’s full implications.”

Oh, he was flabbergasted was he? Should we give him a minute? Are we being mean to the nice lawmaker? Maybe it’s my tone …

These fucking liars. They knew. They knew and didn’t care. As long as they had the protection of Roe they could scream
“Person!”’from the rooftops without ever being called on the details. Now they are acting all stupid and baffled for the cameras.

[pixy0stix]

I strongly disagree that they know. Every time you ask someone like this to explain IVF or fertility procedures they can't. Most people can't.

[wanderingback]

Feb 26, 2024 23:14:05 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FL pauses personhood bill - wapo.st/3wwxhMc

Fucking fuckers. The fact that they didn't think through all the implications... GAH!

Yep. And I would also like to point out that it’s not just republicans, but also democrats. The Democratic Party in general has not been very strong at times. Biden still shying away from saying the word abortion regularly for example.

Per the article "until Democrats began raising concerns last week that the proposal was so broad that it might also impact in vitro fertilization treatments."

….so Democrats just realized this bill was a problem last week?!? I understand they’re outnumbered, but still….

[Bad Dingo]

Another thing about this that is so sad is that if an embryo has genetic testing done on it that reveals conditions that are incompatible with life, it would still need to be transferred and the person would be forced to carry that pregnancy. It's just thoroughly disgusting on so many levels.

[livinitup]

Feb 27, 2024 10:03:48 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Another thing about this that is so sad is that if an embryo has genetic testing done on it that reveals conditions that are incompatible with life, it would still need to be transferred and the person would be forced to carry that pregnancy. It's just thoroughly disgusting on so many levels.

Yes, absolutely disgusting. BECAUSE THE ISSUE HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT BABIES ITS ABOUT CONTROLLING THE WOMEN.

Let’s dig into it - my question is - transferred to WHO ? The sperm donor is out because of biology, so the egg donor? What if the egg donor doesn’t want the embryo implanted? What then, sir?? What then?

It’s so immediately absurd that I want to scream.

[basilosaurus]

Feb 27, 2024 9:21:36 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I strongly disagree that they know. Every time you ask someone like this to explain IVF or fertility procedures they can't. Most people can't.

I think they know the basics. Ooh, embryo, baby, let's transfer. They don't know the reality as mmm so graciously described that out of all those treatments you may only get a few potentially viable and at huge financial and emotional cost.

These are also such anti science people that I don't think they get that part of the reason some pursue ivf isn't because of failure to conceive or implant but to prevent genetic conditions either incompatible with viability or a short and painful life. And even if they do, they don't care. They are forced birth assholes even if they know that child won't last 5 minutes post birth. It spends a very short life of constant medical care which of course they won't fund in pain for everyone involved.

I think they're ignorant about the particular details, yes. But moreso I think they're callous to human suffering so long as it better controls women, and, even better, secures votes and funding.

Tuberville stupidity aside, if they want more babies, wouldn't they want women to get started on the process again sooner if they're being unemotionally pragmatic? No, the cruelty and control is the reason.

They are evil, and I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise. They can put it in all the churchy words they want, but that doesn't fool me.

[fortnightlily]

I think the media coverage still isn't doing a good enough job of explaining why embryos having personhood makes IVF untenable.

Similar to how the pro-birthers define "abortion" in their own heads as "the act of pursuing the end of a pregnancy for reasons I disapprove of" and not "the medical procedure of terminating a pregnancy, regardless of reason" and then wonder why shit like this happens: "An ectopic pregnancy put her life at risk. A Texas hospital refused to treat her." wapo.st/42Rqadr

QUOTE
When Roe v. Wade was overturned in 2022, the two had argued fiercely about what a near-total abortion ban would mean for women in the state — with Norris-De La Cruz fearing a loss of personal freedoms, and Lloyd welcoming new protections for babies who couldn’t speak up for themselves.
Initially, Lloyd said, she thought the Texas abortion law would only affect people who decided they didn’t want to be pregnant — never imagining it could prevent women from accessing lifesaving care. Now, she said, she has completely changed her mind about abortion bans.
“I didn’t realize how far it had gone,” she said. “But it has happened to my life now, with my daughter."
“Her life has been in danger and affected by someone who was too afraid to help.”