@ @ Alabama SCOTUS - embryo ruling

[pixy0stix]

Feb 22, 2024 8:53:07 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Feb 22, 2024 8:48:40 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Frankly, most people have no idea what happens during infertility procedures. So the "Christians" who have been taught to believe abortion is bad have never fully thought through all the implications. There's probably a lot of people realizing now how this personally impacts them vs just a nebulous concept that has never impacted them.

Yep. Same with abortion. There are abortion protestors who go and have their abortions and then go back to protesting so it never ceases to amaze me the mental games people play with themselves that then fucks over other people.

Yup. I've helped several people obtain abortion services through the years that publicly are anti-abortion and it's frustrating.

[pumpkin]

Feb 22, 2024 9:03:11 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Feb 22, 2024 8:53:07 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Yep. Same with abortion. There are abortion protestors who go and have their abortions and then go back to protesting so it never ceases to amaze me the mental games people play with themselves that then fucks over other people.

Yup. I've helped several people obtain abortion services through the years that publicly are anti-abortion and it's frustrating.

All this! And the person I’m annoyed with had her twins via IVF and it makes me ragey.

[icedcoffee]

I know so many super Christian’s who are happy to march for life and fight against stem cell research but then also had infertility procedures. You cannot pick and choose when you believe in science and use procedures born out of tons of research. It makes me shake with anger.

[wanderingback]

Feb 22, 2024 8:58:52 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Feb 20, 2024 20:08:42 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Yes you can store embryos different places. People do this for a variety of reasons already.

Also, I hate to judge anyone but the couple who brought about this case are getting the side eye from me in regards to not thinking about unintended consequences (or maybe they are hoping their case does have further implications in case law that protects the "unborn", ugh)

ETA: I see it was actually 3 couples who brought the wrongful death case. I suspect they knew exactly what they were doing and the implications. I’m not a lawyer but I’m sure there were other civil charges they could’ve used for the accident such as negligence or something else instead of an act against a minor. I am not at all surprised about this unfortunately.

I've been thinking a lot about the couples involved too. They probably are shying away from media attention right now and aren't telling their story yet (from what I can tell), but I do feel some kind of way that they were able to have the children they desperately wanted but now the rug has been pulled out from anyone else in Alabama who need or expected to need IVF to grow their family. Even if they themselves might have been naive enough initially to not believe it could go this far, their lawyers knew exactly what they were doing and I don't believe they would have kept their clients in the dark. It's the GOP way - "I got mine, fuck everyone else." 

There were probably patients at UAB in the middle of IVF cycles preparing for transfer as we speak. It's absolutely heartbreaking to think about. 

Yep exactly. They knew exactly what they were doing, including their lawyers obviously. The case was dismissed by the circuit court judge too. Also, some of the tactics in these cases is with the goal to get them to the Supreme Court. I wonder if they were trying to get the case to the federal Supreme Court.

[Velar Fricative]

I was speaking in general terms about people in the midst of IVF cycles in Alabama right now, but this just got published and reading it just gutted me. There are women in the piece interviewed who are in exactly that situation and were quoted.

Gift link

And I am so mad at the one lady in the piece who used IVF but claims to be pro-life and is happy about this decision can fuck right off. 

[pixy0stix]

This woman is days away from egg retrieval and now has to fly to TX - www.cnn.com/2024/02/22/us/alabama-embryos-ruling-ivf-treatment-leaving-state/index.html

What a topsy turvy world that someone is fleeing to TX for reproductive services.

[pinkplasticdoll]

Feb 22, 2024 8:53:07 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Feb 22, 2024 8:48:40 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Frankly, most people have no idea what happens during infertility procedures. So the "Christians" who have been taught to believe abortion is bad have never fully thought through all the implications. There's probably a lot of people realizing now how this personally impacts them vs just a nebulous concept that has never impacted them.

Yep. Same with abortion. There are abortion protestors who go and have their abortions and then go back to protesting so it never ceases to amaze me the mental games people play with themselves that then fucks over other people.

@wanderback this always got me when escorting..you would come across someone that the day before was outside calling you names and then there they were sitting in the waiting room for their abortion and they would go back to protesting, calling you names .

[sonrisa]

$20 says that when they get to the damages phase of the trial, they ask for higher damages since Alabama clinics have ceased IVF transfers so now they have lost the opportunity to try again or use donor eggs or embryos.

[basilosaurus]

I won't even give these Good Christians tm the benefits of ignorance. My further college friends definitely knew about ivf and infertility and leftover embryos. They would all day they planned to adopt them rather than have biological children. They were that firmly convicted in such an early 20s way.

Of course when it came to starting their families, well, those ideals were for other people. It's the corollary to the only mortal abortion is my own. High ideals are for others.

They know, and that's worse, because they know and still go on with such cruelty. The same people who told me a pregnancy that would kill a mom of living children would only die if it's gods plan so therefore even then abortion should not be legal, they'd be first in line if it were their life that was threatened.

[mrsukyankee]

People who have had IVF or an abortion and are cheering on restrictions for others should have to wear a big old H on their chest for the rest of their lives which sings out HYPOCRITE every 30 minutes from sun up to sun down.

[maudefindlay]

Just saw the news and they interviewed an Alabama couple and they are not allowed to move their embryos out of state even because something could happen in transit. The wife said if the law considers these embryos their children then we should be making that choice. The GOP everything a certain way till it doesn't suit them. Parent rights, parent rights,....but no, not that, so Government rules. They really stand for nothing but evil and control.

[maudefindlay]

Dude literally has no answer, because he will never say the truth....it's not about more kids, it's about controlling womens' bodies.

www.instagram.com/reel/C3rD1m6uWqi/?igsh=MTRicGE4emVhYnd6

[shauni27]

On NPR yesterday, an infertility clinic was saying they were continuing with the plans for people in the middle of an IVF cycle (so they were taking the meds to prep for transfer) but all other treatments were paused.

I also heard on NPR this morning that the three families who brought this case lost their embryos because at their infertility clinic, a worker burned their hand and in doing so, dropped the embryos they were working on and they were damaged/destroyed. That is what started this in the first place. My first thought in that case would be to demand they cover a whole new round of IVF at no charge, not CHANGE THE FUCKING PERSONHOOD LAW.

[Velar Fricative]

Feb 23, 2024 8:36:06 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

On NPR yesterday, an infertility clinic was saying they were continuing with the plans for people in the middle of an IVF cycle (so they were taking the meds to prep for transfer) but all other treatments were paused.

I also heard on NPR this morning that the three families who brought this case lost their embryos because at their infertility clinic, a worker burned their hand and in doing so, dropped the embryos they were working on and they were damaged/destroyed. That is what started this in the first place. My first thought in that case would be to demand they cover a whole new round of IVF at no charge, not CHANGE THE FUCKING PERSONHOOD LAW.

The legal documents actually stated it was a patient who somehow wandered into where they were stored and dropped them. Like, wtf.

[wanderingback]

Feb 23, 2024 9:14:48 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Feb 23, 2024 8:36:06 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

On NPR yesterday, an infertility clinic was saying they were continuing with the plans for people in the middle of an IVF cycle (so they were taking the meds to prep for transfer) but all other treatments were paused.

I also heard on NPR this morning that the three families who brought this case lost their embryos because at their infertility clinic, a worker burned their hand and in doing so, dropped the embryos they were working on and they were damaged/destroyed. That is what started this in the first place. My first thought in that case would be to demand they cover a whole new round of IVF at no charge, not CHANGE THE FUCKING PERSONHOOD LAW.

The legal documents actually stated it was a patient who somehow wandered into where they were stored and dropped them. Like, wtf.

Yes, I’m very confused on that detail about how they had access to the area and so many embryos.

Also, the article I read said the reason they are suing the clinic is because the clinic left the embryos on the floor to die. So yeah they knew exactly what they were doing and the implications.

Rage.

[pixy0stix]

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

[windyseas]

Feb 23, 2024 8:13:11 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

Dude literally has no answer, because he will never say the truth....it's not about more kids, it's about controlling womens' bodies.

www.instagram.com/reel/C3rD1m6uWqi/?igsh=MTRicGE4emVhYnd6

Unfortunately with that dude, it's more about how stupid he is.  He has no clue about most things, but people still allow him to speak and this state will continue to elect him because he has an "R" after his name.  

This state does not vote based on best candidate and it's so damn frustrating.  We had a great senator in Doug Jones, but because he had a "D" after his name, we can't like him.  

I hate it here. 

[slimpickins]

I am so sick of some groups forcing their beliefs on everyone. People who view their embryos as people can choose to implant all of them (a few at a time, not all at once) or store them indefinitely and others can donate to science, or have them destroyed. We're all different and can have different views.

In this specific case, the problem was that the embryos were destroyed by a patient (WTH). The solution then should be to change the security so patients can't just wander in and destroy embryos. I can't believe this was not in place already.

Obviously, the families that lost embryos should be compensated (additional round of IVF at no charge plus compensation for lost work etc.). But, changing the personhood laws doesn't address the security around the embryos.

All that said, I pretty sure the lawyers/SCOTUS/families were just waiting for such a case to push this ruling forward.

If only, society cared as much for literal persons who are not cis-gendered white males.

Sorry for the long rambling post. Not sure if I'm adding to the conversation.

[shauni27]

Feb 23, 2024 10:29:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

yeah, exactly.

Also thank you Velar Fricative for the clarification, I was not aware it was not a worker! 

This morning on NPR and I cannot remember who was speaking but she had said that the other states who tried this and failed now have a benchmark and language to use to try again and she is terrified this will become more normal across the country. Chilling.

[dove]

Woman who sued the state of Texas who sued for Abortion Ban is moving her remaining embryos from the state due to recent AL ruling
www.nbcnews.com/politics/woman-suing-texas-abortion-ban-plans-move-embryos-state-rcna140134

[AJL]

JFC 😳

This is a dangerous legal ruling.

[pumpkin]

Feb 23, 2024 10:29:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

One of the articles I read said that the couples brought the personhood argument because they thought they’d get more in damages. 🤬

[AAM2012]

Feb 23, 2024 17:03:15 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

Feb 23, 2024 10:29:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

One of the articles I read said that the couples brought the personhood argument because they thought they’d get more in damages. 🤬

Well to be honest, it wasn’t probably them that thought of that argument but their attorney.

[sonrisa]

Read it here:
caselaw.findlaw.com/court/al-supreme-court/115829667.html

"cryogenic nursery" WTF?

[erbear]

Feb 22, 2024 13:25:22 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I was speaking in general terms about people in the midst of IVF cycles in Alabama right now, but this just got published and reading it just gutted me. There are women in the piece interviewed who are in exactly that situation and were quoted.

Gift link

And I am so mad at the one lady in the piece who used IVF but claims to be pro-life and is happy about this decision can fuck right off. 

People are so happy to take advantage but not allow others to do the same. We see this so much right now and it’s just infuriating.

[basilosaurus]

Feb 23, 2024 20:48:42 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Read it here:
caselaw.findlaw.com/court/al-supreme-court/115829667.html

"cryogenic nursery" WTF?

WTF? That's straight out of brave new world.

[msmerymac]

The problem is - how on earth do you only create one embryo? That’s what the judge suggested, a person who clearly knows nothing about IVF.

I've done 5 egg retrievals. The retrievals resulted in the following number of eggs taken out of my ovarian follicles:
19
18
16
21
28

After determining how many were mature and how many actually fertilized, the number went down each time. It went down further still on day 3, when the embryologist checked to see how many were still developing as embryos. From the day 3 number, one can expect perhaps 40% to make it to day 5/6, when they are either transferred to the uterus (a fresh transfer) or frozen to later thaw and transfer.

Here are the number of embryos I got:
3
0
1
4
9

And yes, I went to a different doctor and used a different protocol the fifth time.

From there, we did genetic testing. I assure you, I had an embryo with 47.5 pairs of chromosomes. Transferring it would have been futile; it never would have developed. If it had, it would have miscarried. If it hadn't, it would never have survived birth (since no one on earth is recorded as having had this genetic mix, let me tell you) and then we may have had to determine if we were going to terminate for medical reasons. The number of embryos decreased further still. I also miscarried 4, while another 3 just never stuck. So what's my role in murder here?

Was I supposed to go through 102 egg retrievals and retrieve one each time? 102 month, nearly 9 years? 102 medical procedures under general anesthesia which involves a 10 inch needle being stuck in an unmentionable place? Or just had them all retrieved and frozen, then painstakingly had each egg unfrozen at a time and fertilized? Again, how much time and money would that have taken?

And in the end, we used a gestational surrogate, which was $$$$ anyway. Treatment for infertility is already prohibitively expensive!


And yes, I too know many people who are “pro-life” in the infertility community. Some plan to transfer all resulting embryos and therefore don’t do genetic testing or donation, and also attempt to do a cycle where they may only get 2-3 embryos, but again, you don’t really know how many you’ll get or if that will even be enough. Of the 17 total we’ve even made, we “lost” 7 after transferring to me, 6 were discarded due to genetic testing, 1 is now our daughter, and 3 are still frozen.

[ESF]

Feb 23, 2024 17:03:15 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

Feb 23, 2024 10:29:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

One of the articles I read said that the couples brought the personhood argument because they thought they’d get more in damages. 🤬

This is true, but the reason why is the result of another shitty longstanding right wing policy choices.

In Alabama (as in many states), because of the tort reform movement, there are no punitive damages available when you sue for negligence. Punitive damages are however available when you sue for wrongful death.  So by establishing that there has been a "death" here, they are entitled to go to a jury on a wrongful death theory and potentially receive punitive damages.

The availability of punitive damages is a really important tool for providing incentives to businesses to take adequate precautions.  When you don't have strong enough legal remedies, then it's far more likely that businesses will find it makes more financial sense to take shortcuts as the cost of litigation is less than the cost of mitigating negligent conduct.

I don't know whether the clinic in this particular instance was negligent (though it sure does sound like it from the public facts), but I do know that there's a lot of litigation against fertility clinics for fuck ups.  Had the Republicans not successfully waged a decades long campaign to convinve people that civil litigants are all greedy jackpot seeking mooches on society, perhaps we'd have a legal system that would incentivize fertility clinics to take better precautions, perhaps these couples would not have ever needed to sue.  And had they, they wouldn't need to be looking for other ways to compensate themselves for their losses here.

I don't know these couples or what motivated them in this particular instance - perhaps they were so motiviated by money that they didn't care if they destroyed access to these services for themselves and everyone else.   

But it's both misoggyny and tort reform that got us here.  Just a total turducken of shitty GOP policies. 

[StrawberryBlondie]

Feb 23, 2024 10:29:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'd probably sue if a clinic let another patient into the storage area (how?) and they destroyed my embryos (how???), but to bring the personhood argument is insane.

For sure. There was absolutely a lawsuit here. The grounds they chose, however... well, I have nothing good to say about any of the people involved so I'll stop there.

[maudefindlay]

Thank you for sharing all of that msmerymac. Very helpful to read first hand accounts of IVF to understand the full impact of this madness.