Karen Read Murder Trial

[livinitup]

So, I am trying REALLY HARD not to be all tin foil hat about this case but …

- The body is not injured from the neck down BUT the medical examiner signed O'Keefe's death certificate as he died from 'blunt impact injuries of head and hypothermia’. Okay. So, no evidence he was hit by a car. But his eyes and head are banged up like he was punched and his hands have defensive wounds. And the inside of one arm absolutely has deep, long marks & the prosecutor is saying it’s “road rash” from being dragged by the car. When it looks like dog bites and scratches. So, the deceased’s body does not look like he was hit by a car and there is no theory for how he got ‘road rash’ for the marks inside his arm. But there is a theory that a tail light was broken on impact with the deceased - but still, no marks on the body where the tail light would have had impact.

Was the medical examiner in on the cover up or just pressured to be vague so the investigators could say the body was hit by a car?

Question: Is it theory or evidence that the deceased clothes were WASHED?

[mae0111]

livinitup, Proctor's texts indicated that he pushed the medical examiner pretty hard to say that there were no indications of a fight, and that she was a "whack job" because she didn't rule his death a homicide. So I think she was pressured and went as far as she thought she could in order to keep the peace with these animal state troopers that she has to keep working with.

The FBI's findings were that JOK was not hit by a car, and that KR's car did not hit JOK.

Those polycarbonate lights are really hard to break. I just don't see how a 210lb body could smash it the way the CW claims.

Melanie Little did a great show on youtube with a dog bite expert. He showed actual photos of a woman's arm that was attacked by a poorly-trained German Shephard (which it sounds like Chloe was). Her arm looks *identical* to JOK's arm.

As far as the clothes being washed, I think that's just rumor and conjecture. There's also a rumor going around that the shoe produced in court was not even the same type of Nike that was photographed in the snow (shoe in snow appeared to have a black sole, while the one produced in court was gleaming white). But no one seems to be focused on it, so probably just a shadow.

This is so heartbreaking for everyone involved. When I first heard about this story, I cried so hard. Mr. O'Keefe is a very kind man. I continue to feel terrible for him, and my heart breaks a little more every time I see him in court. He looks broken. And he will likely never find justice or peace.

[nospaekae]

Jun 13, 2024 16:58:06 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

This is so heartbreaking for everyone involved. When I first heard about this story, I cried so hard. Mr. O'Keefe is a very kind man. I continue to feel terrible for him, and my heart breaks a little more every time I see him in court. He looks broken. And he will likely never find justice or peace.

This is the absolute saddest part to me. I don't think we'll ever find out what actually happened.

I lean towards some kind of fight or altercation at the house. I know there has been some chatter regarding JOK reporting drug activity and I would like to know more about that. Would definitely explain a massive cover up.

ETA: I've been streaming the court daily, but where is anyone else finding info/discussing the case? I don't want to give TB clicks.

[mae0111]

nospaekae , I follow Melanie Little and Brandi Churchwell. Melanie's channel is totally clean, she streams live every day with commentary. Brandi also streams live, but I haven't listened to her live stream. I have listened to her podcast, 13th Juror.

Melanie is very vocal about her opinion (she believes Karen is innocent), while Brandi is pointing out all of the issues with the investigation while withholding her opinion about guilt or innocence. I like Melanie because she's an attorney in NY. During the earlier hearings, she could give some insight into the judge's rulings. Now I feel like things are so far off the rails in that courtroom that she can't really give much insight into the insane rulings, especially since the lawyers are not allowed to argue their objections in front of the jury.

ETA: Both Melanie and Brandi are on youtube.  I also follow Olivia Lambo on twitter/X.  She has some good insights.  If you can't watch and want a good twitter/x feed to keep up, Jessica Machado of the Fall River Reporter is great and Ted Daniel is pretty good.

[mae0111]

New crazy camera angle because the Court TV camera person caught a juror on camera...

Also heard that a juror was seen at the Waterfall Bar in Canton this week. Wonder if that's true...

[fluffycookie]

They are saying she was blackout drunk, going in reverse backwards over 60ft at 24 mph and he had no broken bones in his lower extremities. That just just not seem plausible.

[mae0111]

Jun 14, 2024 13:35:03 GMT -5 fluffycookie said:

They are saying she was blackout drunk, going in reverse backwards over 60ft at 24 mph and he had no broken bones in his lower extremities. That just just not seem plausible.

On a curve and an incline.  At night.  In the snow.  I can't do that stone sober.

[livinitup]

Jun 14, 2024 15:19:58 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

Jun 14, 2024 13:35:03 GMT -5 fluffycookie said:

They are saying she was blackout drunk, going in reverse backwards over 60ft at 24 mph and he had no broken bones in his lower extremities. That just just not seem plausible.

On a curve and an incline.  At night.  In the snow.  I can't do that stone sober.

Which only amplifies the accusation that they are creating a theory to fit their narrative and NOT following the evidence.
There. is. no. evidence. to. support. this.

[fluffycookie]

The states "expert" accident reconstruction witness yesterday was something else. I had second hand embarrassment for him. And he seemed to change his story of how John was hit from Friday to when he resumed testifying yesterday.

[mae0111]

fluffycookie, I agree - I actually felt bad for him... like when he said "the crime scene told me"... Um... it did??? Or when he couldn't define acceleration? And he absolutely changed his testimony.

I'm listening to the voir dire for the defense right now. They're very impressive. So there's probably no way that they'll be able to testify.

[nospaekae]

Jun 18, 2024 11:02:50 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

I'm listening to the voir dire for the defense right now. They're very impressive. So there's probably no way that they'll be able to testify.

She is an amazingly accomplished woman. I'd love for her to write about her career - it would be a fascinating read!

I couldn't tell if Trooper Paul was playing dumb as a tactic or is actually that incompetent.

[mae0111]

Closing arguments tomorrow. The crash experts today were fantastic. ADA Lally seemed to ask a lot of questions that he didn’t have the answer to, and ended up reinforcing the defense’s reasonable doubt. The defense didn’t hire these experts - the Feds did.

And the best part of today?? Sandra Birchmore’s tragic death was ruled a homicide. Those Stoughton PD pedos are hopefully going to jail.

[litskispeciality]

I just found this thread. Glad to have a place to chat as I have some real-life friends watching this, but they're still very one sided and I don't have the energy to fight that there isn't a lot of evidence to support the states case.

I've been watching as much of the case as I can (while working). I watch "Canton Confidential" (NBC 10) at night for re-caps. I started watching Emily D. Baker on Youtube who talks/comments during the live trial. So glad real media is covering this so I don't have to give that human garbage TB any clicks. Emily and some local media are thinking there could be a quick verdict, possibly even today when the jury gets the case. I would like to see this wrap up quickly, but I don't know if a verdict can come in today? Is that enough time to let everyone share their opinion?

I really hope this poor family gets justice, but sadly I don't think we'll ever find out what really happened, and that really sucks.

Oh and local folks, did y'all see that TB went to the Waterfall Bar and then got in a fight? JFC like just stay the eff home and leave people alone! Why is he not in jail?

[mae0111]

The TB stuff was insane. Yes he should have stayed home, I don't like him at all, but they physically attacked him and one of them was groping his girlfriend in the middle of the street. That was in broad daylight in the middle of the day. Imagine what that group is like after a couple of cocktails and they felt slighted.

I do NOT think its right that BA is staring at the jury. It feels like an attempt at intimidation. I'm sure they were just there to try and keep TB out, but they should be moved to the overflow room. It's not right.

[fluffycookie]

Jun 25, 2024 8:53:13 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

The TB stuff was insane. Yes he should have stayed home, I don't like him at all, but they physically attacked him and one of them was groping his girlfriend in the middle of the street. That was in broad daylight in the middle of the day. Imagine what that group is like after a couple of cocktails and they felt slighted.

I do NOT think its right that BA is staring at the jury. It feels like an attempt at intimidation. I'm sure they were just there to try and keep TB out, but they should be moved to the overflow room. It's not right.

I cannot believe the O'Keefe's invited them to court today. 

Jackson's closing was great.  Lally was Lally. I am hoping it's a quick not guilty.

[livinitup]

litskispeciality What in the world are your friends saying/thinking that leads them to believe Karen Read backed her car into O’Keefe? It can’t be the injuries to his body or the non-believable theory of the crime. Is it just “cops totally do investigations like this and were not motivated to protect the cop home owner at all.”?

[nospaekae]

Jun 25, 2024 8:53:13 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

I do NOT think its right that BA is staring at the jury. It feels like an attempt at intimidation. I'm sure they were just there to try and keep TB out, but they should be moved to the overflow room. It's not right.

I hope the jury sees this for exactly what it is - intimidation.

Lally's closing arguments were all over the place. I don't think he even touched on the evidence he had for her hitting him (hint: he didn't have any.) It was like an hour of random word salad. Other than the timeline (which was helpful and would have been better had it been shared prior to closing), he was just all over the place.

I also find it curious that JOK's dad was not there today, at least that I could see. And the brother and SIL have never sat next to the mother - you'd think they would want to comfort her? I'm getting the feeling that his family is very split or there are estrangements behind the scenes or something.

[litskispeciality]

Jun 25, 2024 14:01:13 GMT -5 livinitup said:

litskispeciality What in the world are your friends saying/thinking that leads them to believe Karen Read backed her car into O’Keefe? It can’t be the injuries to his body or the non-believable theory of the crime. Is it just “cops totally do investigations like this and were not motivated to protect the cop home owner at all.”?

Pretty much that JOK was a cop and a good guy who took care of his niece and nephew etc. (this appears to be true). Cops do their job, therefore Karen *obviously* killed him and how in the world could that many people cover this up? To be honest I haven't talked much about the case to them since it's started because I don't have the energy to say "there's literally no evidence to backup the states theory, and Proctor is human garbage who's probably ruined future cases as well". My husband is a first responder and has talked to me about some of the procedures at his dept (obviously they could vary), and he feels there are inconsistencies.

I just finished closing arguments, I don't feel Laley said anything that supports she hit him other than she said "she hit him", but I have doubts that (first responder/EMS etc.) folks could have gathered after the fact and organized stories. It's not right, it shouldn't happen...but it could have.

I just noticed BA, plus JM and the younger Albert child, who I think there's a conspiracy theory about and/or some evidence in this case could have caused injury to JOK, are sitting with the family. I can't. I just can't. I swear to all things holy if we ever find out the A's had something to do with this....

Hoping the jury is back soon with a not guilty verdict. I can't wait to watch documentaries about this, however I hope there are more clear answers as to what happened rather than "she was found not guilty, and here's a recap of the trial and botched investigation". I agree with the recaps I've watched that this case should have been put on hold until the FBI investigation was complete as well, however that's probably unknown and I think someone thought this case was more clear cut, but where did they get that idea? 

[litskispeciality]

Also curious why the juror was released today? I know we'll probably never find out why, but I would be pissed to give up what 9 - 10 weeks to get let go the day of deliberations. I've heard conspiracy theories mentioned above that another released juror was at the Waterfall the night in question. I believe the state?, the defense? (maybe both)? really tried to do more research on the seated jury for fears of folks getting on the jury who have a motive either for or against KR, but the judge says it's not legal as they don't do that in other cases.

This case reminds me a lot of the Scott Petersen case in regards to media coverage, potential jurors coming in with pre-convceived notions, however I've wondered why they didn't try to get this KR case moved at least to a court further away in MA as this is just another conflict of interest. I can't say where they could go to ensure no one was aware of the case, but I think further away would have allowed a little more chance of someone truly impartial and not interested in the case pre-trial.

This may be tin foil hat, but I feel like if the jury takes a good while to come back, or somehow is a hung jury (please no!) that there could be someone who snuck through with an agenda against KR, and I'd be curious to hear their reason to feel there's any way to convict her without reasonable doubt. I know we'll never get that, but everything seems to point to enough reasonable doubt not to convict based on the evidence provided.

[mae0111]

Re JOK’s dad… I’d like to think that he’s with his grandchildren today.

[mae0111]

I think it’s interesting that Brian Albert made a huge deal about going to a funeral for a cop on NY, shows up for closing arguments… and DID NOT ATTEND Officer O’keefe’s funeral. None of them did. I heard his face was all banged up - black eye, other bruising and cuts - and his arm was in a sling, so he didn’t want to go. There are photos to that effect, but I don’t know if the timing has been verified.

[mae0111]

So there is no "not guilty" option for the lesser charges on the jury form. Feels... like the court is attempting to direct the jury towards a verdict...

[litskispeciality]

Jun 26, 2024 9:52:20 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

So there is no "not guilty" option for the lesser charges on the jury form. Feels... like the court is attempting to direct the jury towards a verdict...

I missed all of this, but got an update in the Law Nerd app that Jackson was really pushing hard and almost losing it. Apparently Judge Bev walked off the bench?! Good lawd she is so unprofessional!

And yeah, giving an out of state lawyer a hard time about clarifying the law for THEIR client (the defendant) is so sketchy. Isn't the judge there to explain the law and ensure it's properly carried out?

[mae0111]

Karen Read laughed at the insanity and the judge yelled, "Is this funny to you Ms Read?"

No ma'am. It's a travesty.

And she called on David Yanetti regarding the instructions, claiming they were standard. He said he has NEVER seen any instructions like this.

[fluffycookie]

Jun 26, 2024 10:01:41 GMT -5 litskispeciality said:

Jun 26, 2024 9:52:20 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

So there is no "not guilty" option for the lesser charges on the jury form. Feels... like the court is attempting to direct the jury towards a verdict...

I missed all of this, but got an update in the Law Nerd app that Jackson was really pushing hard and almost losing it. Apparently Judge Bev walked off the bench?! Good lawd she is so unprofessional!

And yeah, giving an out of state lawyer a hard time about clarifying the law for THEIR client (the defendant) is so sketchy. Isn't the judge there to explain the law and ensure it's properly carried out?

She said that Yanetti who is licensed to practice in Mass has seen forms like this and he stood up and said he has not.  This case is becoming a kangaroo court.

[mae0111]

Well at least the judge reversed herself and added the necessary check boxes and explanations of the charges to the jury slip.

Also... jury asked for the SERT report... except there IS NO SERT REPORT... because the Mass State Police didn't document their searches... I don't know what that will mean to the jurors... I would think it would create more reasonable doubt, but who knows...

[litskispeciality]

Jun 26, 2024 10:11:38 GMT -5 fluffycookie said:

Jun 26, 2024 10:01:41 GMT -5 litskispeciality said:

I missed all of this, but got an update in the Law Nerd app that Jackson was really pushing hard and almost losing it. Apparently Judge Bev walked off the bench?! Good lawd she is so unprofessional!

And yeah, giving an out of state lawyer a hard time about clarifying the law for THEIR client (the defendant) is so sketchy. Isn't the judge there to explain the law and ensure it's properly carried out?

She said that Yanetti who is licensed to practice in Mass has seen forms like this and he stood up and said he has not.  This case is becoming a kangaroo court.

I just watched the video. FFS are all judges this unprofessional? Seems like a lawyer could be fined for snapping back, and/or walking away from the judge. Give the lawyers the same courtesy/respect. And for the record KR was probably laughing in her mind "wow they are going to do everything they can to make sure I'm convicted", so yeah she's probably laughing to avoid crying at this point.

Glad Jackson pointed out TO THE JUDGE that not adding the "Not Guilty" box could be an automatic appeal. I know there's a lot to the law, but shouldn't the judge know that or is that just a MA loophole that apparently doesn't exist anywhere else?

I thought both the state and the defense asked for an extension before the trial started so I really don't feel bad that the judge is tired and burnt out by this case...so is everyone.

[maudefindlay]

Jun 26, 2024 11:48:46 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

Well at least the judge reversed herself and added the necessary check boxes and explanations of the charges to the jury slip.

Also... jury asked for the SERT report... except there IS NO SERT REPORT... because the Mass State Police didn't document their searches... I don't know what that will mean to the jurors... I would think it would create more reasonable doubt, but who knows...

WTF? If you don't document, it didn't happen. Jeez let her go free now. Anyone who says they don't have reasonable doubt is a liar.

Do you locals think Karen Read needs to move far away? Like is her life in danger there?

[mae0111]

Jun 26, 2024 13:02:06 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

Jun 26, 2024 11:48:46 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

Well at least the judge reversed herself and added the necessary check boxes and explanations of the charges to the jury slip.

Also... jury asked for the SERT report... except there IS NO SERT REPORT... because the Mass State Police didn't document their searches... I don't know what that will mean to the jurors... I would think it would create more reasonable doubt, but who knows...

WTF? If you don't document, it didn't happen. Jeez let her go free now. Anyone who says they don't have reasonable doubt is a liar.

Do you locals think Karen Read needs to move far away? Like is her life in danger there?

I think Lucky Loughran is in danger. I think it’s very likely that he will meet with an accident while plowing this winter. He stood up to the bullies and didn’t back down. They’re so scary.

I feel like Karen will be so front and center for years to come… she will sue everyone… there will be movies and books and documentaries… but Lucky will just try to go back to his life and I’m concerned for him.

[litskispeciality]

Jun 26, 2024 13:02:06 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

Jun 26, 2024 11:48:46 GMT -5 mae0111 said:

Well at least the judge reversed herself and added the necessary check boxes and explanations of the charges to the jury slip.

Also... jury asked for the SERT report... except there IS NO SERT REPORT... because the Mass State Police didn't document their searches... I don't know what that will mean to the jurors... I would think it would create more reasonable doubt, but who knows...

WTF? If you don't document, it didn't happen. Jeez let her go free now. Anyone who says they don't have reasonable doubt is a liar.

Do you locals think Karen Read needs to move far away? Like is her life in danger there?

I've thought about this. Apparently the national media is now on verdict watch, so I don't know where this woman can go? Will she be able to go back to her professor job? I mean they legally can't fire her if she's found not guilty, but will they not want the "drama"? 

I've heard people ask questions if the OK family can sue (KR?) after this similar to the OJ thing. I want the OK family to get justice, but I don't think suing KR is going to be the right move.

There was a news story that Town of Canton had a town meeting last night about the police, but I haven't had a chance to watch the story yet. Apparently things are still very divided there and it will probably take a long time to heal, which is very sad.

Meanwhile Proctor will probably remain on payroll until full retirement. I also feel bad for whoever moved in to the Albert's house since they just "had reason to sell" after they re-homed their dog.

Oh and the poor OK family. I appreciate all of the support for KR, but the people basically out tailgating outside of the courthouse (beyond the barriers set by the court). People are saying they took a vacation to fly up to MA to be there for the verdict. Let's all please remember someone lost their life in all of this, and those poor kids have now lost another parent figure.