Post by cricketwife on Jul 21, 2024 8:25:19 GMT -5
I'd love advice, opinions, experiences.
My dad and I have always had a rocky relationship. Basically, he's always been a crap father from about age 8, but I spent the first 45 years of my life trying to "be the bigger person" etc. A little over two years ago, he, yet again, did something that hurt me deeply. I don't mind sharing if anybody wants to know more, but it's not really worth going into except to say that it's like he goes out of his way to do something awful - it's not accidental. At that point, I decided that I was no longer going to have him in my life. I wished him no ill, but it was like enough, you no longer have permission to come into my life and hurt me anytime you want. I blocked his wife (my stepmother) on my phone because she has a history of sending texts to try to manipulate me to call him or whatever. In the 2+ years since, he reached out once, on Christmas day (2023) and left a message asking to talk to me "and/or" the boys. I did not respond.
This morning, my stepbrother (the wife's son, who I haven't seen or spoken to in probably 15 years?? -- I don't have an issue with him, there's just not really any relationship there.) called me. I didn't recognize the number so I didn't pick up. He left a VM saying that my dad is not doing well. He's got blood in his stool, is like 100 pounds, needs an iron infusion....
I texted stepbrother and just said "Thanks for the message."
So at this point, no one has asked me to do anything. I don't hate my father. I do have anger about what he did most recently and all the years. I am probably bitter and I don't want to be. I do think he could be near death, or not, who knows, but the day will come one way or another that he is dying, and I want to do what will give ME the most peace moving forward.
Like, I don't really want to talk to him because mostly I just want to say, "You were a shit dad." but that seems unhelpful. I know I'm not going to feel better saying that to a dying man. I also don't want to say "I forgive all -- die in peace" or whatever. Like, even as I type this, it's like I feel inside me that I am still hurt and angry and I wish I wasn't. Like, I wish I just didn't care that he was a shit dad.
I don't want to keep rambling but any stories or advice about how to navigate this are welcome. I don't want him to die and me think, "Gosh, I should have called him" or whatever. I don't want to call him and say something that *I* will regret - like I don't want to feel bad about myself and the person I am. And I would like to let him die in peace - I don't want to intentionally say something just to irritate him.
Also, I fully expect at some point that my stepmother will call me from somebody else's phone and try to get me to talk to him.
ETA: I appreciate all the comments. To be clear, I am not entertaining the idea of visiting/seeing him, though I understand that my post was asking for advice in a super vague way. I’m just considering a phone call (video call would be fine.) He is states away/plane ride away and the “straw that broke the camels back” so to speak involved me flying, at my expense and vacation time, at his request, only for him to be horrible to me.
Post by wanderingback on Jul 21, 2024 8:36:16 GMT -5
I know this is standard advice, but are you in therapy? If not, even for a short period to work through how to navigate his illness and death (whenever that may be). Ultimately you should do what you think will make you feel the most content whether that be never speaking to him again vs "wishing him well" vs telling him he sucks. <3
Post by underwaterrhymes on Jul 21, 2024 8:40:37 GMT -5
I’m sorry. I think only you can know if you will regret not reaching out.
My sister and I had a very challenging childhood due to our parents’ alcoholism and have vastly different approaches to our relationships with our dad. I’m very close with him but she hasn’t had a relationship with him for 7+ years. She does not miss talking to him and honestly I don’t know what she will do when we reach the point you’re at. I do know I won’t judge her for whatever choice she makes.
My grandfather abandoned my dad, his siblings, and my grandmother when the kids were small. Years later - when I was maybe 12 or so - his dad reached out to him, stating he was dying and he wanted to make amends and meet his grandchildren. My dad said no. When his dad died, my sister was with my dad and she said it was the first time she had ever seen him cry.
IDK. It’s so complicated. My heart goes out to you.
ETA - I agree with wanderingback. I think therapy would be a good choice to help you navigate this. It’s so hard.
Post by Patsy Baloney on Jul 21, 2024 8:49:44 GMT -5
I can share my story. My dad and mom split when I was a child and my dad hurt my mom a lot. He was explosive and violent. He was mean to me. Our relationship grew more strained as I got older and when I went to college, that was basically it. I invite him to things that are important, but we don’t have a, “I’m gonna call my dad!” relationship.
He has Alzheimer’s now and the news hit me like a ton of bricks. Because it put a countdown on my time with him, I reflected, and decided that while my relationship with my dad will never be any more than it is, I would like my kids to know him.
I call him more now and visit now. When he is actively dying, I will support my siblings who I do have a relationship with.
I think, for me, if you’re worried you will regret not reaching out, it would be a good idea to do it. If you’re worried it will harm you to reach out, then do not. You have to do what is best for you. It may not be immediately clear, but give yourself time and space to reflect on the paths forward and which one gives you the most healing and peace of mind.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. It’s tough.
Post by sunshineluv on Jul 21, 2024 8:52:32 GMT -5
I had a troubled but not estranged relationship with my dad. He was an alcoholic which caused lots of issues. He had been suicidal a few times. My sister and I tried our best to make sure we had no regrets with him. In the end he died of a heart attack and I still from time to time have pangs of regret that I didn’t return his last phone call. All that to say, without knowing how awful what he has done to you, I would reach out. To me the regret of not reaching out would be bigger than the regret of however the conversation with him would be.
I have a terrible dad that I am very low contact with. It could become no contact at any time.
Nothing about someone dying makes them a better person — he “is who he is.” I can see a world in which I don’t bother visiting him on his deathbed — and I’m pretty sure that would be fine with me.
But only you can decide if there is something you would get from seeing him. In my case, my dad would still be a lying liar who lies. It isn’t like we would have an important conversation.
Post by starburst604 on Jul 21, 2024 9:01:14 GMT -5
I think that even if you see him and it’s not great for you, you’ll know that he can’t hurt you once he’s gone and this is it. For me, I’d want to know that I made my best effort to give him some peace at the end even if it was never what he gave to me. I’m not saying you have to forgive and tell him it’s all ok, but just having you there may bring some peace to him and you won’t have regrets once he’s gone.
I have no advice because I’m in a similar situation, though not fully estranged. So far I have just had light contact with my dad to check in about his health and continue to invite him to my kids birthday parties, etc. and avoided any emotional conversations. I have no idea what I’ll do once he is actively dying. I will probably go back to therapy when the time comes. Sending love to you, these things are so hard to navigate.
Post by Velar Fricative on Jul 21, 2024 10:06:10 GMT -5
Not advice, but sharing my story. PDQ.
I hadn’t seen or spoken to my father since 2002 when he abandoned our family (my mother was a stay-at-home parent since the kids were born, leaving her and us in a precarious situation). He was abusive towards my mom before that. I was barely an adult and my brother is only a little over a year older than me, but our younger siblings were minors. So my brother and I just took care of ourselves to allow my mom to land on her feet and take care of the little ones. It was tough but everything turned out well.
This past January we heard from family we still kept in touch with that my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given just a few months to live. He died in April. My brother and I still wanted nothing to do with him and never reached out. My sisters didn’t see what we saw as adults back in 2002 so they had a harder time and did arrange to meet with him in February. Neither decision was the wrong one. None of us have regrets for how we handled things.
I think therapy is a good idea, but I myself felt at peace with my decision the whole time and still do, so I opted not to go to therapy for this situation.
All this to say, there’s no wrong way to feel and consider your feelings and reactions first and foremost.
Do you think or wonder if you’d feel better seeing him? If so, maybe seeing him before he gets potentially worse for a short, controlled visit would help clarify things.
I think it’s fine to not see him at all and block anyone who might call too. Or tell anyone that you aren’t interested in seeing or hearing about him. You are the one who is going to have to keep living in this scenario and need to do what makes your life better.
Also, while his health seems concerning, I didn’t see a diagnosis in there. Plenty of people lose weight, have gastro problems including bleeding and need iron infusions and go on to live many more years (decades!) once they are properly treated. So it might not really be “the end”.
I’m estranged from my mom, and I spend a lot of time thinking about this. My dad died when I was 19. He was “my” parent and my mom was my brother’s parent. I describe it as we were each raised by single parents who happened to be married to each other.
I’m pretty sure my mom is either on the autism spectrum or is narcissistic. She’s awful and hurtful and manipulative and she has no clue that she’s any of those things. She is definitely the hero and victim in her own story. She runs through life, with no long term friendships or relationships. She has 7 siblings and is estranged from all the ones who are still alive. She was estranged from all the others before they died. She and my brother (I’m also estranged from him because he’s just like my mom, probably undiagnosed autistic, and he’s absolutely her henchman and does her bidding) have this incredibly messed up relationship that’s full of drama. When I refused to allow their drama into my life, we all had to part ways.
I don’t plan on making amends. I haven’t done anything wrong. She doesn’t know she needs to make amends. When I think of her being dead, and try to imagine it, I don’t miss her. I don’t mourn her. I mourn never having had the mom I deserved. More than anything, I feel a sense of relief at the idea of her not looming in the shadows in the background, always a threat to cause upset and drama in my little family I’ve worked so very hard to build.
So, maybe with a therapist, really try to imagine you’ve gotten the news he’s died. How would you feel? Sad you didn’t reach out? Upset with yourself that you did? And let that inform your decision.
Do you think or wonder if you’d feel better seeing him? If so, maybe seeing him before he gets potentially worse for a short, controlled visit would help clarify things.
I think it’s fine to not see him at all and block anyone who might call too. Or tell anyone that you aren’t interested in seeing or hearing about him. You are the one who is going to have to keep living in this scenario and need to do what makes your life better.
Also, while his health seems concerning, I didn’t see a diagnosis in there. Plenty of people lose weight, have gastro problems including bleeding and need iron infusions and go on to live many more years (decades!) once they are properly treated. So it might not really be “the end”.
Yeah, I don’t know what the situation is. He will be 86 in 3 weeks, and is the youngest of 8 siblings. Most of his family lived well into their 90’s so it seems “early” for him to die.
I’m estranged from a volatile, verbally abusive parent. I’ve worked to make peace with any outcome regarding his death. If he reaches out, I’ll probably go, and not say anything mean, and just let it be. I don’t think I’ll enjoy it but I don’t think it will harm me enough for me to avoid it. If he doesn’t reach out, I made this choice and I’m fine to see it through. I don’t want to see him again. There’s really nothing left to say. I’m not expecting some deathbed insight or apology. I certainly have no apologies to offer. I think I wouldn’t want to live with the ongoing curiosity of what he would have said, which isn’t quite the same thing as regret because I don’t believe he has something magical that he can say which will undo a lifetime of damage.
Post by cricketwife on Jul 21, 2024 11:11:47 GMT -5
I'm trying to answer some of the questions that have come up in replies - really just to help me process.
I'm not in therapy. I have done periods of therapy twice in my life for unrelated issues, most recently in dealing with my mother's Alzheimer's and stepfather's death and the aftermath. I just never found therapy helpful. I've had 3 different therapists so I'd say, "it's not them, it's me" lol. I could try to talk to someone about this.
Part of me wants to talk to him because the F'ing dream WILL NOT DIE that he will be someone different. I still want a father. I want him to want me. The problem with him is that he's a NICE GUY. Strangers all love him because he's friendly (he was a sales person). Except for one time, he was never physically abusive. He's not an overt monster, if that makes sense. Like he "looks" like a normal, functioning human being and he is, except he just can't manage to be a decent father to his own children. (He has 5 from 3 different relationships - 2 were marriages and one was someone he never married. He has no or virtually no relationship with any of us. I was always the one he had the most contact with - again, because I was always trying.) I'm rambling but what I'm trying to say, is we have been through this cycle, I could talk to him, he would be friendly, he *might* even apologize (not sure on that one) but if he didn't die immediately, but lived long enough, he would do something awful again. Like, he's not going to horrible to me in the moment.
Yeah, I need take@jlt19,s advice and just write all my thoughts down of what I would say to him.
I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. There is no right answer. And it can be hard to know what choice will be easier to live with going forward.
I had a similar situation. I chose to be a part of dad's life but mostly for my mom. She knew how I felt and once commented that she was glad I forgave him. I told her I hadn't. I took care of him because of who I am and not who he was. YMMV.
I am estranged from my bio father. He was abusive at worst and a manipulative narcissist during the tame years. I cut contact at age 16. It wasn’t hard to do, as he had moved out of state without telling us years prior. He had a new family and moved on without us. His wife is as awful as he is.
I have talked to him twice since then, when each of his parents died. We both attended a wedding about 7 years ago and didn’t acknowledge each other there. I was grateful for this, as I have zero interest in him knowing H or my children.
I have thought long and hard about how I might respond if/when the news comes that he is sick or dying. At this point, I don’t intend to do anything about it. I’ll spend my life healing from his harm. I forgave him long ago. I have not regretted a single action yet. I don’t anticipate having regrets about not acknowledging his death. The only reason I would consider attending a funeral is out of respect to his sister (my aunt) who has been wonderful to my throughout my life.
I share his DNA, but he is a stranger to me. Hugs to everyone else with difficult parent relationships.
Post by wanderlustmom on Jul 21, 2024 12:01:04 GMT -5
Thinking of you! That's tough, I agree you don't owe your dad anything and this is for you to decide for yourself. It's not your fault at all your dad acts the way he does.
I also completely relate to wanting my father to be different. My dad has not been a good husband to three different wives, a bad dad to four children and a bad grandfather to nine grandkids. Now at almost 50 and four years of therapy in, I really see it's about him and not me and I've finally stopped expecting him to be different. He is an emotional cowboy, very selfish and just does his life on his terms. I will never lie and tell him he's a good dad. I do tell him I love him. Very few happy childhood memories he was mostly working or off hunting.
I focus now on the good things he does (there are a few) and I have told him some of my really bad memories with his rejection. I give him very little energy or effort so I don't get as upset when he lets me down as much. We just went to a family wedding and he pretty much ignored me and my siblings. He tries to take credit all the time for how good we all turned out and I bite my tongue. I want to tell him we did this all despite your bad parenting. My dad had a terrible abusive childhood (he plays the victim and loves to tell me all about THAT) but no excuses he became an adult and treated the people he was supposed to love with indifference. I only talk to him on the phone every few weeks now just for a quick check in.
FWIW — People ADORE my father. Between the ages of 12 and 16, I used to beg him to start a cult because I knew people would join and we could be rich!!! This was back in the 80s when Oral Roberts went up in the tower and would not come down until he raised tons of money so that is what gave me the idea. My dad had a job that made him a local celebrity and people think he is awesome. He is still a great story teller and people find him fascinating.
It was always hard for me to explain why/how my dad was so messed up until Donald trump came along as a political candidate. It was basically like being raised by a middle/upper middle class version of Donald Trump. My dad is charismatic and bombastic and is the hero of every story he tells (while acting self deprecating). He only loves his kids to the extent we make him look good. I know this sounds silly, but I am Ivanka in this scenario. I went to the “best” schools and got the “best” job. He sees me as the most braggable. My youngest sister is Tiffany — the one he totally forgets exists.
My dad isn’t actually capable of loving any of us. He is desperately insecure behind all his charm and charisma. He despises women — other than his daughters (sort of). He escaped poverty through sports and is all “bootstraps”. He is a little corrupt (cheats on his taxes type stuff). He is a pathological liar. He despises “welfare queens” while he takes every benefit he can get out of the system. He “flips houses” and rents them — basically he is a slum lord. He always wanted to capitalize on the attractiveness of his daughters. His dream at one point was to open a car wash and have his teen daughters wash cars in their bikinis. Sounds a lot like Donald, right??
As I was a teen, he became an alcoholic as he had retire from his first “celebrity” kind of career and become a normal person with a normal job.
I came to terms in my 20s with not having a real dad figure. I’m glad I did this so young. It is much, much harder for one of my sisters who keeps thinking he can change and be like a normal dad who will actually care. This is why I would be fine not visiting him. He isn’t my dad and he isn’t going to change on his deathbed. My sister who thinks he might change may show up at his deathbed someday only to be disappointed.
I'm rambling but what I'm trying to say, is we have been through this cycle, I could talk to him, he would be friendly, he *might* even apologize (not sure on that one) but if he didn't die immediately, but lived long enough, he would do something awful again. Like, he's not going to horrible to me in the moment.
Yeah, I need take@jlt19,s advice and just write all my thoughts down of what I would say to him.
Perhaps, then, you have this talk where it ends on “good” terms, and then cut off contact. So that your last interaction is a relatively positive one.
Post by wanderlustmom on Jul 21, 2024 15:50:09 GMT -5
yes if you do decide to see him, you don't have to say a damn thing. If he tries to bring up past stuff--you can cut him off and say you don't want to talk about that. You can just say I wanted to see you and I love you (if you want to say that). If your stepmom tries to talk about stuff, you can cut her off and say you want to be here and you don't want to get into any discussion of the past. My step mom tries to rope us all in to their marriage problems and we all interrupt and back out. I have to cut my dad off a lot from being overly emotional or getting into stuff I don't want to talk about. Feel free to PM me, I would even talk to you if you want. I know you don't want to go to therapy but I'm a therapist and a daughter of a terrible dad (LOL) so I can tell you some gray rock stuff I do with my dad. Obviously it's also fine to keep your estrangement--the number of my friends and clients that do this is high--just wanted to give you some advice if you do decide to talk to him. But my dad is fairly passive and really won't push back once I get tough with him. I know some dads do. So it also depends on how your dad will react
Post by fivechickens on Jul 21, 2024 15:50:34 GMT -5
I am estranged from my dad who is also a shit father. My dad is 80 this year and I think often if I got a similar phone call I don’t think I would reach out and I do not think I would regret it. He has not been a part of my life for so long nothing will change when he is gone. I don’t hate him. I don’t feel anything towards him, if I am honest.
I can’t give great advice. I’m most estranged from my dad. He’s not a great person and I have had limited contact with him my whole life. As a kid I was VERY hurt by his actions, but as I grew up I realized that some people are just mean-spirited. I think about what I will do when he dies. Honestly - in your situation, I would maybe send a card, but I would not call. I would not give my dad the opportunity to tell me all the ways I have failed him. I guess I just know him too well and don’t want to know those are his dying thoughts. But that’s MY dad and what HE would do. If you think you will benefit from a call, then maybe call?
Post by followyourarrow on Jul 21, 2024 19:36:51 GMT -5
I can tell you what I’m doing, but it may not be right for you. I haven’t seen or talked to my father in almost 6 years. He said and did some very hurtful things, intentionally. It was the straw for me, this had been an ongoing issue forever. My sister cut him out at the same time for the same reasons. My stance, which he knows, is that the ball is in his court to apologize and make amends. So far he has said that it’s not his fault and he has nothing to apologize for. If that were to change on his death bed, I’d be willing to talk to him, but he’s had 2 heart attacks and 3 strokes already in this time. I have made my peace. I’ll go to his funeral only for family, not for him, not for myself.
Post by Leeham Rimes on Jul 21, 2024 20:05:46 GMT -5
My dad died two years ago, a few months before his death, I decided to talk to him over the phone, hoping he was the kind of person who would find contrition on his deathbed. He wasn’t and said incredibly mean stuff to me. I just said goodbye and hung up.
So that’s the very last memory I have of him, he was the nasty old drunk he always was until literally the day he died. I don’t regret the conversation though bc for me, I feel like I gave him every chance to at least say sorry, once, turns out he’s a person who can’t learn a lesson. Another reason I don’t regret my decision is bc I don’t ever have to wonder (if I hadn’t made the call) “what if”. However I was in therapy once a week for a long while before this which helped me make the decision.
I certainly am not advising one way or another, whatever you feel is right for you is right for you. You don’t owe anyone anything.
I need ham like water Like breath, like rain I need ham like mercy From Heaven's gate Sometimes ham salad or casserole or ham that’s free range, all natural I need ham
Post by ellipses84 on Jul 21, 2024 22:32:24 GMT -5
I’ve gone through it, but my situation / reasons were different and I was able to reconcile during the last few months he was dying. He was never intentionally malicious though, just a deeply flawed person with his own demons, and if he had been cruel I would have walked away with zero guilt. I also didn’t feel like I needed to swoop in and take responsibility for him since he did nothing for me in decades.
My BFF is going through this now. Her dad sounds more like yours and would never take accountability or apologize. She chose not to travel far to see him in his unexpected last few days or attend the funeral. She was very conflicted about the funeral, and I think that’s partly due to a fear of being judged by other relatives. She was nervous about how the obituary would address his children. She has felt way more grief than she thought she would. Part of the grief is that her hope died with him, that he would ever apologize or try to have a good relationship with her. Mourning what could have or should have been.
My advice to her and to you, is that you owe him nothing and you don’t owe an explanation to anyone unless you want to give it.