Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[CurlyQ284]

Nov 7, 2024 6:05:14 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

There are soooooo many people who just don’t care about a lot of issues we care about but have a “live and let live” attitude, and so it boils down to a few key issues and the yearning for change. Astead Herndon mentioned on the Daily yesterday that the GOP has successfully become the party of change. That is wild to hear after 2008, but he’s not wrong.

I've been thinking about this a lot since he said it. I was thinking about Obama 2008, I voted in Mississippi that year (outside Memphis). There were white people lined up outside town hall playing drums, made signs, playing music, it was a party and people were excited to vote for him because he gave us all hope. Things were SO shitty then, the recession was ramping up and everyone was scared but he seemed like he was going to fix it.

I live in Michigan now, people are struggling and I really didn't hear anything like that when I reflect back. I will vote for women's rights, and people other than me but there's a ton of people who don't and Dems need to figure out how to make them feel like help is on the way (and then hopefully also deliver the help, not just empty promises).

I feel like Gretchen Whitmer could do it, she's done a great job here but now I have such low hopes that we can get a woman elected president 💔

[heat40]

Nov 7, 2024 8:37:50 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:32:56 GMT -5 themoneytree said:

YES.

@@ Someone told me Southern Republicans raise their children to HATE Democrats. I hadn’t realized that before and I feel like with MAGA and Christian Nationalism that has spread. Voting Dem to them is literally one of the worst things you can do, the biggest sin. That is what we are up against.

This is the environment in Miami. If you’re a dem, you get the “comunista!” label. That is very very hard to cut through.

[sonrisa]

Nov 6, 2024 17:47:30 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 6, 2024 17:39:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Just saw the n social media “the reason the educated vote blue….”

We HAVE to stop the name calling and shaming. The insinuation that anybody that voted red is stupid or evil isn’t opening up a dialogue to have conversations and build bridges. We also have to stop with purity tests and silencing anybody that has differing opinions.

@@@@@@@@

I don't understand how I'm supposed to coexist with people who have "differing opinions" on my child's existence.

I don’t plan to. I literally will not hold a voluntary conversation with anyone who supported him.

[Velar Fricative]

Nov 7, 2024 8:40:44 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Nov 7, 2024 6:05:14 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

There are soooooo many people who just don’t care about a lot of issues we care about but have a “live and let live” attitude, and so it boils down to a few key issues and the yearning for change. Astead Herndon mentioned on the Daily yesterday that the GOP has successfully become the party of change. That is wild to hear after 2008, but he’s not wrong.

I've been thinking about this a lot since he said it. I was thinking about Obama 2008, I voted in Mississippi that year (outside Memphis). There were white people lined up outside town hall playing drums, made signs, playing music, it was a party and people were excited to vote for him because he gave us all hope. Things were SO shitty then, the recession was ramping up and everyone was scared but he seemed like he was going to fix it.

I live in Michigan now, people are struggling and I really didn't hear anything like that when I reflect back. I will vote for women's rights, and people other than me but there's a ton of people who don't and Dems need to figure out how to make them feel like help is on the way (and then hopefully also deliver the help, not just empty promises).

I feel like Gretchen Whitmer could do it, she's done a great job here but now I have such low hopes that we can get a woman elected president 💔

I’ve been thinking about Obama’s successes too. Obama was NEW. Nationally, we didn’t know him until 2004 and he became POTUS four years later. Trump was also new in 2016. He is not new now, but he still represented change in 2024. We need an actual change agent at the top. Not necessarily someone who’s a true outsider, but someone who maybe we political junkies know that the rest of the general public doesn’t. I don’t know who that is yet. Maybe someone like Secretary Pete since he wouldn’t come with the potential baggage of governing a state or being a congressional representative.

[wise_rita]

Nov 7, 2024 8:42:14 GMT -5 heat40 said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:37:50 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

@@ Someone told me Southern Republicans raise their children to HATE Democrats. I hadn’t realized that before and I feel like with MAGA and Christian Nationalism that has spread. Voting Dem to them is literally one of the worst things you can do, the biggest sin. That is what we are up against.

This is the environment in Miami. If you’re a dem, you get the “comunista!” label. That is very very hard to cut through.

I wish I could say this anonymously because I am SO not the person to bring up, much less have, this conversation, but: we need to talk about Latino men.

White women will cop a lot of well deserved shit in this election, but they're not the only ones who did this to us.

[abs]

Nov 7, 2024 8:57:38 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:42:14 GMT -5 heat40 said:

This is the environment in Miami. If you’re a dem, you get the “comunista!” label. That is very very hard to cut through.

I wish I could say this anonymously because I am SO not the person to bring up, much less have, this conversation, but: we need to talk about Latino men.

White women will cop a lot of well deserved shit in this election, but they're not the only ones who did this to us.

Latin men (and women) are very conservative and very pro life. It goes back to the religion talk and is not something I have any great ideas on how to combat.

[mmmomof2]

Nov 7, 2024 5:52:38 GMT -5 meganew said:

Nov 6, 2024 23:20:25 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

lol, long term lurker. No not offended, just pointing out the ridiculousness of the outrage.

And what exactly is so ridiculous about it?

You want to win another election? You have to figure out why these people and no, they are not all racists, misogynists and fascists, leaned to Trump not kick them out of the country. The polarization is part of the problem.

[Bad Dingo]

Nov 7, 2024 9:14:40 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

Nov 7, 2024 5:52:38 GMT -5 meganew said:

And what exactly is so ridiculous about it?

You want to win another election? You have to figure out why these people and no, they are not all racists, misogynists and fascists, leaned to Trump not kick them out of the country. The polarization is part of the problem.

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

[Patsy Baloney]

Nov 7, 2024 8:54:20 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:40:44 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

I've been thinking about this a lot since he said it. I was thinking about Obama 2008, I voted in Mississippi that year (outside Memphis). There were white people lined up outside town hall playing drums, made signs, playing music, it was a party and people were excited to vote for him because he gave us all hope. Things were SO shitty then, the recession was ramping up and everyone was scared but he seemed like he was going to fix it.

I live in Michigan now, people are struggling and I really didn't hear anything like that when I reflect back. I will vote for women's rights, and people other than me but there's a ton of people who don't and Dems need to figure out how to make them feel like help is on the way (and then hopefully also deliver the help, not just empty promises).

I feel like Gretchen Whitmer could do it, she's done a great job here but now I have such low hopes that we can get a woman elected president 💔

I’ve been thinking about Obama’s successes too. Obama was NEW. Nationally, we didn’t know him until 2004 and he became POTUS four years later. Trump was also new in 2016. He is not new now, but he still represented change in 2024. We need an actual change agent at the top. Not necessarily someone who’s a true outsider, but someone who maybe we political junkies know that the rest of the general public doesn’t. I don’t know who that is yet. Maybe someone like Secretary Pete since he wouldn’t come with the potential baggage of governing a state or being a congressional representative.

Obama was born under a lucky star. I know that sounds a little dismissive of his work, and rest assured, it is not. His book details it really well. He was just a working guy, who ran a campaign and it just, like, went really well. And his opponents messed up, so it went even better. And that just kept happening as his campaigns moved to the national level. He was a good guy, so not much baggage, and “new,” relatively speaking. It all just worked for him.

We need to be watching those stars to find out next candidate, lol.

[heat40]

Nov 7, 2024 8:57:38 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:42:14 GMT -5 heat40 said:

This is the environment in Miami. If you’re a dem, you get the “comunista!” label. That is very very hard to cut through.

I wish I could say this anonymously because I am SO not the person to bring up, much less have, this conversation, but: we need to talk about Latino men.

White women will cop a lot of well deserved shit in this election, but they're not the only ones who did this to us.

There’s a lot that goes into it, but for starters I think the Dems made a mistake in how they approached Latinos. We were all placed in one bucket. When in reality depending where you come from, your experience is vastly different and therefore the approach needs to be catered to that. But also, while immigration is very important, Latinos are also working class, also find living expenses to be out of hand, also are having housing problems, etc etc. so the general critique of not connecting with the working class also applies to Latinos.

[konapoppy]

Nov 7, 2024 9:14:40 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

Nov 7, 2024 5:52:38 GMT -5 meganew said:

And what exactly is so ridiculous about it?

You want to win another election? You have to figure out why these people and no, they are not all racists, misogynists and fascists, leaned to Trump not kick them out of the country. The polarization is part of the problem.

This is giving me major post-2016 Hillbilly Elegy vibes which is a bit ironic 🙃😭😭😭

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:14:40 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

You want to win another election? You have to figure out why these people and no, they are not all racists, misogynists and fascists, leaned to Trump not kick them out of the country. The polarization is part of the problem.

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

So again, over half the voters right? All racist, misogynist, and fascist, right? Significant numbers of minorities. My married lesbian nextdoor neighbors. Everyone. And, I’m sure, that if someone didn’t vote, they enabled Trump so they deserve to fuckin burn, too, right?

THIS is why you will continue to lose. And fuck you.

[Bad Dingo]

Nov 7, 2024 9:45:28 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

So again, over half the voters right? All racist, misogynist, and fascist, right? Significant numbers of minorities. My married lesbian nextdoor neighbors. Everyone. And, I’m sure, that if someone didn’t vote, they enabled Trump so they deserve to fuckin burn, too, right?

THIS is why you will continue to lose. And fuck you.

Unfortunately, there are many trans hating lesbians. See Michfest for an example.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 9:52:52 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:45:28 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

So again, over half the voters right? All racist, misogynist, and fascist, right? Significant numbers of minorities. My married lesbian nextdoor neighbors. Everyone. And, I’m sure, that if someone didn’t vote, they enabled Trump so they deserve to fuckin burn, too, right?

THIS is why you will continue to lose. And fuck you.

Unfortunately, there are many trans hating lesbians. See Michfest for an example.

Cool story. They aren’t. They are decent people. Who are you to call allllllllll these people fascists, racist, and misogynist? The black men who voted for him? Asians? Fucking everyone right?

Honestly, you can’t see why this shit is a major problem with winning elections?

[jeaniebueller]

It’s definitely a time for us to be mad and vent and be angry, but seriously consider logging off of social media. Because I am seeing Harris voters, putting out some really deranged right now that are not going to help the party or help anyone in the future. Making jokes and comments mocking people because they voted for Trump because cost of their groceries have gone up, just so not the way to do this. It’s not a joke, cost of food is an actual problem for people, especially people who are not upper middle-class and wealthy. I don’t think Trump’s gonna do shit to fix it, but this is not the commentary to make.

[pisces]

Bottom line, people don't want to vote for dems because of their policies and messaging. They have been in 'power' the last 4 years and people aren't better off so people wanted change. That's how I see it. Housing and groceries are high, there are wars going on, petty crime isn't being prosecuted, secure the border.

2020 same thing happened, people wanted change and Biden got a historical number of votes. R's voted for him. Didn't happen this time around.

[laladypoet]

I've said many many times that Kamala was making a mistake by not taking a harder line with Israel. however, if anyone thinks Palestine will fare better under Trump, I can't help them. I hope they're right for the sake of Palestine.

[jeaniebueller]

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:14:40 GMT -5 mmmomof2 said:

You want to win another election? You have to figure out why these people and no, they are not all racists, misogynists and fascists, leaned to Trump not kick them out of the country. The polarization is part of the problem.

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

We will lose elections. If this is what the attitude is. You think we’re going to convince all the people who voted for Trump that they’re actually just racist and all that other stuff and they’re going to magically come over and vote for a Democratic candidate?

I am curious about the demographics of this board, how many actually live and interact with people who are Trump voters and how many of you live in solid blue areas where you do not. The Trump voters I know were often single issue voters and they didn’t really like the guy that much anyway. Not every Trump voter was running around in Maga hats and showing up at rallies. Many of them are critical about Trump for certain issues just like many of us are critical about Biden and Harris about certain issues.

[meganew]

Please stop saying it’s half the country, or even half of all voters- because no it’s not. It’s half of all people who voted in THIS election. I don’t want to court them. I don’t want to lean further center to try to win back voters who voted for this man. I want to cut my losses and start actually doing shit instead of just talking about it to win over the people who stayed home. Talking about how awful the other side is didn’t work, because those voters don’t care!

[mrsslocombe]

Ultimately a majority of people think they will be better off under Trump than Harris.

We'll see how much these people aren't "actually" racist when the mass deportations start, when the denaturalize citizens, and change birthright citizenship. I'll look for them on the protest line.

[lilac05]

Nov 7, 2024 8:35:56 GMT -5 abs said:

Covid fundamentally changed us all. It changed how we consume media and what media we consume. Working from home means we no longer interact with people face to face unless we choose to. It made us all fearful and selfish. You see it out and about all the time so of course the election was going to be the same. You never have to leave your echo chamber. Me first, other people later. So totally agree that the messaging needs to be simple, easy to access, and stop thinking people will do the right thing to protect others. They won’t.

I also said this in another thread but Democrats have to have a reckoning with religion. Christianity has a huge hold on the Republican party. I have no idea how to break through that cult but we don’t have a chance until we do. So many people I know hate Trump but voted for him anyways because Jesus. I’m not religious at all so I don’t get it but it’s clearly a huge hurdle we need to figure out.

I have more thoughts later.

As far as Christianity, I think we need to elevate the voices of the progressive Christians. (On IG, @thenewevangelicals is dedicated to the cause and a good follow, even if you aren’t a Christian.) There are a LOT of them/us…and our faith is every bit as important to us as those who use it as a weapon on the far right. We base our votes on our faith principles, too (but obviously focus on different verses). Let people know that there’s a nice place for Christian Democrats, too, and the right doesn’t own them. Let them know that it’s OK if they believe that life begins at conception and they’d never choose abortion for themselves because it’s wrong according to *their* beliefs BUT they believe that their beliefs on the issue shouldn’t control what someone else does with their body.(This is where I think we miss a lot of people!) A bigger tent, a longer table.

Of course that needs to be done carefully, so as to not alienate other religions, but most progressive Christians are very accepting of other religions (and the lack thereof). Many of us also know what it was like to be on the other side of all of these arguments/discussions and could add a lot to the conversation. We see the gray in things (even if we no longer believe in the gray) where most people see either black or white.

[pisces]

Nov 7, 2024 10:02:46 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

We will lose elections. If this is what the attitude is. You think we’re going to convince all the people who voted for Trump that they’re actually just racist and all that other stuff and they’re going to magically come over and vote for a Democratic candidate?

I am curious about the demographics of this board, how many actually live and interact with people who are Trump voters and how many of you live in solid blue areas where you do not. The Trump voters I know were often single issue voters and they didn’t really like the guy that much anyway. Not every Trump voter was running around in Maga hats and showing up at rallies. Many of them are critical about Trump for certain issues just like many of us are critical about Biden and Harris about certain issues.

Live in Northern VA. I live in a community with many Trump voters and I agree with you, they vote for him not because it's him, but because of the POLICIES. Tougher on crime, fix the border, end wars, fix the economy. People want to feel safe, people want to be able to afford groceries and a place to live. Whether all that happens remains to be seen. They wanted change from the current administration because currently they do not feel safe and able to afford things.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:04:26 GMT -5 meganew said:

Please stop saying it’s half the country, or even half of all voters- because no it’s not. It’s half of all people who voted in THIS election. I don’t want to court them. I don’t want to lean further center to try to win back voters who voted for this man. I want to cut my losses and start actually doing shit instead of just talking about it to win over the people who stayed home. Talking about how awful the other side is didn’t work, because those voters don’t care!

Ok. Over 72.5 million people in our country. All racist, misogynist, and fascist. Better?

Now granted, these are all people that very few on this board would ever even admit to associating with/being friendly with (see previous poll - unless some people are delusional and just *believe* you have NOT ONE Trump voter friend).

[karinothing]

Nov 7, 2024 10:10:40 GMT -5 pisces said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:02:46 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

We will lose elections. If this is what the attitude is. You think we’re going to convince all the people who voted for Trump that they’re actually just racist and all that other stuff and they’re going to magically come over and vote for a Democratic candidate?

I am curious about the demographics of this board, how many actually live and interact with people who are Trump voters and how many of you live in solid blue areas where you do not. The Trump voters I know were often single issue voters and they didn’t really like the guy that much anyway. Not every Trump voter was running around in Maga hats and showing up at rallies. Many of them are critical about Trump for certain issues just like many of us are critical about Biden and Harris about certain issues.

Live in Northern VA. I live in a community with many Trump voters and I agree with you, they vote for him not because it's him, but because of the POLICIES. Tougher on crime, fix the border, end wars, fix the economy. People want to feel safe, people want to be able to afford groceries and a place to live. Whether all that happens remains to be seen. They wanted change from the current administration because currently they do not feel safe and able to afford things.

It is so fascinating to me that a party so obsession with manliness is also so scared all of the time. 

[abs]

Nov 7, 2024 10:02:46 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

We will lose elections. If this is what the attitude is. You think we’re going to convince all the people who voted for Trump that they’re actually just racist and all that other stuff and they’re going to magically come over and vote for a Democratic candidate?

I am curious about the demographics of this board, how many actually live and interact with people who are Trump voters and how many of you live in solid blue areas where you do not. The Trump voters I know were often single issue voters and they didn’t really like the guy that much anyway. Not every Trump voter was running around in Maga hats and showing up at rallies. Many of them are critical about Trump for certain issues just like many of us are critical about Biden and Harris about certain issues.

Yes. There is a difference between MAGA and traditional Republicans. We can’t reach the MAGA people but we can reach out to traditional Republicans. Calling them names isn’t going to help though. There IS baked in misogyny. I’m not saying there isn’t. But my neighbors aren’t evil either. Honestly their concerns over grocery costs and medical costs are legit. I share them. Dems need to do better on the messaging of these concerns. Voters as a whole just aren’t informed enough.

[wise_rita]

Putin is personally going to jizz all over this thread.

He's already got half the country in the bag and are making progress on the other half.

[meganew]

Nov 7, 2024 10:02:46 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

We will lose elections. If this is what the attitude is. You think we’re going to convince all the people who voted for Trump that they’re actually just racist and all that other stuff and they’re going to magically come over and vote for a Democratic candidate?

I am curious about the demographics of this board, how many actually live and interact with people who are Trump voters and how many of you live in solid blue areas where you do not. The Trump voters I know were often single issue voters and they didn’t really like the guy that much anyway. Not every Trump voter was running around in Maga hats and showing up at rallies. Many of them are critical about Trump for certain issues just like many of us are critical about Biden and Harris about certain issues.

We’re already losing elections! We lost this one! We barely won the last one! Those voters are GONE. He didn’t get any more votes this time than last time, we just didn’t get our people out the door. Our messaging sucks, our base doesn’t want us catering to republicans- they want change. And we keep giving them more of the same.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 9:45:28 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

They may not identify as such, but if they voted for him then they need to face the facts that they are in fact those things.

So again, over half the voters right? All racist, misogynist, and fascist, right? Significant numbers of minorities. My married lesbian nextdoor neighbors. Everyone. And, I’m sure, that if someone didn’t vote, they enabled Trump so they deserve to fuckin burn, too, right?

THIS is why you will continue to lose. And fuck you.

Insults are not helpful, and frankly undermine your argument. That said, I agree that Dems/the left really need to stop demonizing everyone on the other side. Dismissing 70+ million of your fellow citizens as racist, fascist, etc., is as wrongheaded and, frankly, counterproductive as the right-wingers who call anyone who votes Dem a commie, baby-killing Antichrist. People have radically different life stories, priorities, and reasons for voting the way they do (or not voting at all). Some of the Trump supporters voted for him because they are racist, sure. Some because they hate women. Some because they really believe that abortion is killing a human soul. And some because they truly believe that he will provide them with more economic opportunity/lower prices/whatever. Just like some people who voted Dem prioritize open access to abortion, others civility in public discourse, or amnesty for illegal immigrants, or universal health care, or student loan forgiveness. Some may have just wanted to see a black woman elected. You could go on and have dozens of reasons on both sides, and most of those reasons cannot be reduced to “they are just horrible, evil, disgusting human beings who want to stick it to others.”

That attitude is fatal to a liberal democracy, and unfortunately it is rampant on *both* sides of the aisle now. 

[pisces]

Nov 7, 2024 10:12:31 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:10:40 GMT -5 pisces said:

Live in Northern VA. I live in a community with many Trump voters and I agree with you, they vote for him not because it's him, but because of the POLICIES. Tougher on crime, fix the border, end wars, fix the economy. People want to feel safe, people want to be able to afford groceries and a place to live. Whether all that happens remains to be seen. They wanted change from the current administration because currently they do not feel safe and able to afford things.

It is so fascinating to me that a party so obsession with manliness is also so scared all of the time. 

Ehh, that was a more general comment. People in general want to feel safe and want to be able to afford everyday items.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:13:54 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:45:28 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

So again, over half the voters right? All racist, misogynist, and fascist, right? Significant numbers of minorities. My married lesbian nextdoor neighbors. Everyone. And, I’m sure, that if someone didn’t vote, they enabled Trump so they deserve to fuckin burn, too, right?

THIS is why you will continue to lose. And fuck you.

Insults are not helpful, and frankly undermine your argument. That said, I agree that Dems/the left really need to stop demonizing everyone on the other side. Dismissing 70+ million of your fellow citizens as racist, fascist, etc., is as wrongheaded and, frankly, counterproductive as the right-wingers who call anyone who votes Dem a commie, baby-killing Antichrist. People have radically different life stories, priorities, and reasons for voting the way they do (or not voting at all). Some of the Trump supporters voted for him because they are racist, sure. Some because they hate women. Some because they really believe that abortion is killing a human soul. And some because they truly believe that he will provide them with more economic opportunity/lower prices/whatever. Just like some people who voted Dem prioritize open access to abortion, others civility in public discourse, or amnesty for illegal immigrants, or universal health care, or student loans forgiveness. Some may have just wanted to see a black woman elected. You could go on and have dozens of reasons on both sides, and most of those reasons cannot be reduced to “thaey are just a horrible, evil, disgusting human beings who wants to stick it to others.”

That attitude is fatal to a liberal democracy, and unfortunately it is rampant on *both* sides of the aisle now. 

Insults are not helpful? Is it not insulting to call all these people misogynist, fascist, racists?

I don’t really have an argument. I fuckin hate Trump and bawled my eyes out in 2016. This time around, I could see it coming.