Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[calamity]

acuore,
People are PISSED at their fellow citizens for voting for this complete dipshit who has listed ALL THE WAYS he will dismantle our freedoms in the country. Ok, name calling may not be helpful right now but I am personally hurt by the people I know that voted for his policies. Disappointed. Devastated for my children.

When he does all the things that he has promised to do I don't want to hear any Trumper's whining about it. THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED ASSHOLES!

Maybe over time I can forgive them, but I will not FORGET.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 9:58:09 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

It’s definitely a time for us to be mad and vent and be angry, but seriously consider logging off of social media. Because I am seeing Harris voters, putting out some really deranged right now that are not going to help the party or help anyone in the future. Making jokes and comments mocking people because they voted for Trump because cost of their groceries have gone up, just so not the way to do this. It’s not a joke, cost of food is an actual problem for people, especially people who are not upper middle-class and wealthy. I don’t think Trump’s gonna do shit to fix it, but this is not the commentary to make.

I absolutely do not blame black women for saying this. I don't see how anyone can.

[meganew]

Nov 7, 2024 10:11:30 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:04:26 GMT -5 meganew said:

Please stop saying it’s half the country, or even half of all voters- because no it’s not. It’s half of all people who voted in THIS election. I don’t want to court them. I don’t want to lean further center to try to win back voters who voted for this man. I want to cut my losses and start actually doing shit instead of just talking about it to win over the people who stayed home. Talking about how awful the other side is didn’t work, because those voters don’t care!

Ok. Over 72.5 million people in our country. All racist, misogynist, and fascist. Better?

Now granted, these are all people that very few on this board would ever even admit to associating with/being friendly with (see previous poll - unless some people are delusional and just *believe* you have NOT ONE Trump voter friend).

I don’t think they are all that- nor did I say that. I said we’re not getting them back, and we can twist and turn ourselves as much as we want but they’re fine with what they voted for and/or they’ve been successfully lied to that they think they actually voted in their own self interest, and I don’t think they’re going to suddenly realize or admit they were wrong. We need to move on from them.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:20:29 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:13:54 GMT -5 acuore said:

Insults are not helpful, and frankly undermine your argument. That said, I agree that Dems/the left really need to stop demonizing everyone on the other side. Dismissing 70+ million of your fellow citizens as racist, fascist, etc., is as wrongheaded and, frankly, counterproductive as the right-wingers who call anyone who votes Dem a commie, baby-killing Antichrist. People have radically different life stories, priorities, and reasons for voting the way they do (or not voting at all). Some of the Trump supporters voted for him because they are racist, sure. Some because they hate women. Some because they really believe that abortion is killing a human soul. And some because they truly believe that he will provide them with more economic opportunity/lower prices/whatever. Just like some people who voted Dem prioritize open access to abortion, others civility in public discourse, or amnesty for illegal immigrants, or universal health care, or student loans forgiveness. Some may have just wanted to see a black woman elected. You could go on and have dozens of reasons on both sides, and most of those reasons cannot be reduced to “thaey are just a horrible, evil, disgusting human beings who wants to stick it to others.”

That attitude is fatal to a liberal democracy, and unfortunately it is rampant on *both* sides of the aisle now. 

Insults are not helpful? Is it not insulting to call all these people misogynist, fascist, racists?

I don’t really have an argument. I fuckin hate Trump and bawled my eyes out in 2016. This time around, I could see it coming.

it looks like people here are walking right into the paradox of intolerance. what the fuck, people. yes, let's make fucking excuses for this country overwhelmingly voting for a rapist and felon over a qualified black woman.

seriously what are you trying to prove?

ETA: the royal you. not the quoted person. I'm quoting in agreement

[thejen626]

Nov 7, 2024 9:57:38 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:52:52 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Unfortunately, there are many trans hating lesbians. See Michfest for an example.

Cool story. They aren’t. They are decent people. Who are you to call allllllllll these people fascists, racist, and misogynist? The black men who voted for him? Asians? Fucking everyone right?

Honestly, you can’t see why this shit is a major problem with winning elections?

Have you heard “the Cinemax theory”? Cinemax is a channel that has pretty hard core porn on it. Most other channels don’t have that. So if you sign up for a cable package with Cinemax, you’re acknowledging that you might have some hardcore porn on your tv occasionally, even if that’s not WHY you’re signing up.

It’s the same with Trump. You know he’s going to be racist, sexist, fascist. Even if you aren’t voting for him because of those things, at the very least, you are ok that they will happen occasionally.

And no, they aren’t decent people if they’re supporting him in any way. And neither are you if you’re supporting him.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:22:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:11:30 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Ok. Over 72.5 million people in our country. All racist, misogynist, and fascist. Better?

Now granted, these are all people that very few on this board would ever even admit to associating with/being friendly with (see previous poll - unless some people are delusional and just *believe* you have NOT ONE Trump voter friend).

I don’t think they are all that- nor did I say that. I said we’re not getting them back, and we can twist and turn ourselves as much as we want but they’re fine with what they voted for and/or they’ve been successfully lied to that they think they actually voted in their own self interest, and I don’t think they’re going to suddenly realize or admit they were wrong. We need to move on from them.

No, another poster said that. And it isn’t at all out of line with what is posted here about people every day if they don’t align PERFECTLY with the far left.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:22:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:11:30 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Ok. Over 72.5 million people in our country. All racist, misogynist, and fascist. Better?

Now granted, these are all people that very few on this board would ever even admit to associating with/being friendly with (see previous poll - unless some people are delusional and just *believe* you have NOT ONE Trump voter friend).

I don’t think they are all that- nor did I say that. I said we’re not getting them back, and we can twist and turn ourselves as much as we want but they’re fine with what they voted for and/or they’ve been successfully lied to that they think they actually voted in their own self interest, and I don’t think they’re going to suddenly realize or admit they were wrong. We need to move on from them.

That’s a recipe for never winning a national (or many state) elections again. We have to deal with the country and society and fellow citizens we have, not the ones we wish we did. 

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:24:37 GMT -5 thejen626 said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:57:38 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Cool story. They aren’t. They are decent people. Who are you to call allllllllll these people fascists, racist, and misogynist? The black men who voted for him? Asians? Fucking everyone right?

Honestly, you can’t see why this shit is a major problem with winning elections?

Have you heard “the Cinemax theory”? Cinemax is a channel that has pretty hard core porn on it. Most other channels don’t have that. So if you sign up for a cable package with Cinemax, you’re acknowledging that you might have some hardcore porn on your tv occasionally, even if that’s not WHY you’re signing up.

It’s the same with Trump. You know he’s going to be racist, sexist, fascist. Even if you aren’t voting for him because of those things, at the very least, you are ok that they will happen occasionally.

And no, they aren’t decent people if they’re supporting him in any way. And neither are you if you’re supporting him.

I didn’t vote for him. And I don’t need you, an internet stranger, deciding whether I’m a decent person or not. Again, THIS, is the shit people are fucking tired of. But, great, continue to not get it.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:25:44 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:22:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

I don’t think they are all that- nor did I say that. I said we’re not getting them back, and we can twist and turn ourselves as much as we want but they’re fine with what they voted for and/or they’ve been successfully lied to that they think they actually voted in their own self interest, and I don’t think they’re going to suddenly realize or admit they were wrong. We need to move on from them.

That’s a recipe for never winning a national (or many state) elections again. We have to deal with the country and society and fellow citizens we have, not the ones we wish we did. 

you act like democrats never won by calling out racism before.

[underwaterrhymes]

I’m curious - why is it the Democrats that need to do the reaching? Why is it okay for Republicans to refuse to do anything that helps people and to shit all over equal rights and Democrats are the ones who aren’t doing enough listening? That’s bullshit, IMO.

What we DO need to be doing is figuring out how to combat disinformation. We are not, by and large, a society that embraces critical thinking. The GOP sure AF won’t be doing work in this area, so while Democrats are working on our next ground game, this needs to be a big part of it because the propaganda is only going to get worse.

[karinothing]

Nov 7, 2024 10:16:25 GMT -5 pisces said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:12:31 GMT -5 karinothing said:

It is so fascinating to me that a party so obsession with manliness is also so scared all of the time. 

Ehh, that was a more general comment. People in general want to feel safe and want to be able to afford everyday items.

I mean I know, but they are scared. But there party is driven by fear. I mean fear that you will be attacked so you need a gun for self defense. Fear that schools are turning your kid into gay liberals. Scared that your kid will be attacked in the bathroom. Scared that immigrants are going to take your job or be better than you. It is all fear. 

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:24:05 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:20:29 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Insults are not helpful? Is it not insulting to call all these people misogynist, fascist, racists?

I don’t really have an argument. I fuckin hate Trump and bawled my eyes out in 2016. This time around, I could see it coming.

it looks like people here are walking right into the paradox of intolerance. what the fuck, people. yes, let's make fucking excuses for this country overwhelmingly voting for a rapist and felon over a qualified black woman.

seriously what are you trying to prove?

ETA: the royal you. not the quoted person. I'm quoting in agreement

Speaking only for myself, my point is that most of those people did not vote for Trump *because* he is a rapist felon, or not vote for Harris *because* she is a black woman. For many of them, there were other considerations that outweighed those factors. Smearing them all as racist woman-haters because they don’t share your order of priorities is unreasonable and, more importantly, dooms you (here I mean the Democrats generally) to electoral failure. 

[pisces]

Nov 7, 2024 10:29:26 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I’m curious - why is it the Democrats that need to do the reaching? Why is it okay for Republicans to refuse to do anything that helps people and to shit all over equal rights and Democrats are the ones who aren’t doing enough listening? That’s bullshit, IMO.

What we DO need to be doing is figuring out how to combat disinformation. We are not, by and large, a society that embraces critical thinking. The GOP sure AF won’t be doing work in this area, so while Democrats are working on our next ground game, this needs to be a big part of it because the propaganda is only going to get worse.

IMO, people don't see dems as trustworthy because of the 'left leaning' media.

[lilac05]

Everyone is angry and hurting right now. I think these discussions would be better after we’ve all taken a beat to heal.

Name calling will never change anyone’s mind, no matter how true it is. It will only encourage them to dig their heels in deeper while yelling, “I am NOT a X.” Because in their hearts, they don’t believe it. Walking alongside people and SHOWING them how their words or actions are racist/sexist/whatever, even if they don’t recognize it is what helps move the needle. Calling people names mostly just makes the name callers feel better about themselves because they’re NOT whatever it is. It solves nothing. Improves nothing. Just increases the divide.

Helping people SEE their racism (or whatever) is what moves the needle. I know this from my own personal experience.

I think we need to listen more to the people who used to be conservative and now are not…as well as the people who used to be stronger democrats and are now not.

[underwaterrhymes]

Nov 7, 2024 10:32:04 GMT -5 pisces said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:29:26 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I’m curious - why is it the Democrats that need to do the reaching? Why is it okay for Republicans to refuse to do anything that helps people and to shit all over equal rights and Democrats are the ones who aren’t doing enough listening? That’s bullshit, IMO.

What we DO need to be doing is figuring out how to combat disinformation. We are not, by and large, a society that embraces critical thinking. The GOP sure AF won’t be doing work in this area, so while Democrats are working on our next ground game, this needs to be a big part of it because the propaganda is only going to get worse.

IMO, people don't see dems as trustworthy because of the 'left leaning' media.

That doesn’t answer the question and the idea that the media is overall left-leaning is a joke.

So, again. The GOP has not made a habit of reaching across the aisle. Why on earth do we need to make concessions on human rights? FUCK that. I will not

[laladypoet]

in 2016, everyone here was ready and willing to call out the blatant racism of voters. wtf happened.

[cville]

I think there's a difference between embracing someone who doesn't care about the issues that you do/ignores them/votes against them as a VOTER and embracing them as a person.

If we're the big tent party, we need to accept that some people under the tent with us are there for very different reasons. I don't think that doing so would hollow out the soul of the Democratic party the way embracing Trumpism has done for the GOP. Working to explain how fighting for union rights, trans rights, and NATO are interrelated.

Eta: that doesn't mean not calling out racism, fascism, misogyny and not pointing out that people ignored that because of their self interest when they (and it's a lot of them) voted for him. It means that Democrats need to do a better job articulating our arguments and attacking misinformation.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:35:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

in 2016, everyone here was ready and willing to call out the blatant racism of voters. wtf happened.

Do you believe every vote cast for Trump was by a racist?

[erbear]

Nov 7, 2024 10:31:44 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:24:05 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

it looks like people here are walking right into the paradox of intolerance. what the fuck, people. yes, let's make fucking excuses for this country overwhelmingly voting for a rapist and felon over a qualified black woman.

seriously what are you trying to prove?

ETA: the royal you. not the quoted person. I'm quoting in agreement

Speaking only for myself, my point is that most of those people did not vote for Trump *because* he is a rapist felon, or not vote for Harris *because* she is a black woman. For many of them, there were other considerations that outweighed those factors. Smearing them all as racist woman-haters because they don’t share your order of priorities is unreasonable and, more importantly, dooms you (here I mean the Democrats generally) to electoral failure. 

I hear you, and I agree that most people didn't vote for Trump BECAUSE he is all of those things, but what I hear people saying (and I agree with) is that, factually, if someone voted for Trump, they 1) knew all of these things about him and 2) in their calculations, decided it was worth overlooking all of those harmful things in the name of the economy / whatever. They chose themselves over the greater good, which is not surprising but is incredibly hurtful to many many people.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:36:50 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:35:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

in 2016, everyone here was ready and willing to call out the blatant racism of voters. wtf happened.

Do you believe every vote cast for Trump was by a racist?

I believe every vote cast for Trump was 100% willing to at least overlook racism to get cheap eggs.

so Nazi-adjacent.

[underwaterrhymes]

Nov 7, 2024 10:36:50 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:35:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

in 2016, everyone here was ready and willing to call out the blatant racism of voters. wtf happened.

Do you believe every vote cast for Trump was by a racist?

Everybody who voted for Trump said they are okay with having a racist, misogynistic, rapist felon for a president. So, extrapolate what you will from that.

[wise_rita]

Why am I* supposed to give a FUCK about fragile white men being scared of losing the top of their patriarchal pyramid, when I am scared of losing my life?!

* gay, trans, woman, minority

And to the wider point that it was not just white men who did this, it is indeed them who made other demographics "scared".

[calamity]

acuore, so their desire for cheap food outweighs women's bodily autonomy? Because their pickup being more expensive to fill up is a good reason to support deporting millions of immigrants?

The irony is that Trump and Biden really don't have shit to do with either. I mean companies are greedy and OPEC sets gas prices. The idea that Trump cares about the American people is laughable.

Their lack of critical thinking skills is exactly why I think they are idiots. And I will call them out as such.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:37 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Why am I* supposed to give a FUCK about fragile white men being scared of losing the top of their patriarchal pyramid, when I am scared of losing my life?!

* gay, trans, woman, minority

And to the wider point that it was not just white men who did this, it is indeed them who made other demographics "scared".

JFC THANK YOU.

anyone who thinks it's up to us to care about Trump voters has brain worms. and some of y'all are new and I'm side-eyeing yall

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:08 GMT -5 erbear said:

They chose themselves over the greater good, which is not surprising but is incredibly hurtful to many many people.

Yes, I believe most people vote (and frankly, live their lives) in this way. I wish it were different, but again, we have to deal with the fellow citizens we have, not those we wish we did. Most people, most of the time, need to be convinced that whoever they vote for is going to better their personal situation in some way. They will not be yelled at, shamed, or insulted into voting for what someone tells them is the morally superior candidate. 

[meganew]

Nov 7, 2024 10:25:44 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:22:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

I don’t think they are all that- nor did I say that. I said we’re not getting them back, and we can twist and turn ourselves as much as we want but they’re fine with what they voted for and/or they’ve been successfully lied to that they think they actually voted in their own self interest, and I don’t think they’re going to suddenly realize or admit they were wrong. We need to move on from them.

That’s a recipe for never winning a national (or many state) elections again. We have to deal with the country and society and fellow citizens we have, not the ones we wish we did. 

Which is exactly what I’m saying! I wish more people wouldn’t vote for him, but that’s not happening- so let’s energize the people (which is a lot) who don’t vote AT ALL.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:42:31 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:08 GMT -5 erbear said:

They chose themselves over the greater good, which is not surprising but is incredibly hurtful to many many people.

Yes, I believe most people vote (and frankly, live their lives) in this way. I wish it were different, but again, we have to deal with the fellow citizens we have, not those we wish we did. Most people, most of the time, need to be convinced that whoever they vote for is going to better their personal situation in some way. They will not be yelled at, shamed, or insulted into voting for what someone tells them is the morally superior candidate. 

girl shut up. I hope you fall off your high horse.

[sequins]

Nov 7, 2024 8:37:52 GMT -5 sakoro said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:15:12 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

The other thought that occurred to me as I was brushing my teeth this morning is how Ds need to do something with the power they are given.

I’m an average person. Cognitively, I know this administration was working to halt and lower inflation. But I don’t really know how that works. I trust that they’re doing it, but there was no flashy, “We’re making these greedy mfers stop raising prices” talk. I’ve seen the articles - I know grocery execs and companies were making money hand over fist. Nobody stopped it, or at least in a way that I could see and understand.

I live in a district where a lot of latinos voted for Trump for the first time. They aren’t wearing red hats or putting Trump flags on their pickup trucks, so I don’t think they have the cultural identification that many white men had in 2016. However, they didn’t feel like Biden is on their side with increased housing costs, grocery costs, higher electricity prices, cancelation of homeowners insurance policies and felt the biggest impact from COVID closures (as small business owners and working in the trades). So millions ignored the insulting things he said about Mexicans being rapists and voted (for what they believe to be) in their economic interest.

Dems are overly reliant on identity politics and too timid in pushing back on corporate interests - such as grocery companies— probably because that’s who funds campaigns.

None of Trump’s policies are going to solve any of these problems- particularly the 20% tariff and tax cuts for the rich.

Ding ding ding. 


Now, it's beyond me how people can call this corruption when it's on the dem side and have elon jumping up and down the stage on the republican side. But this exactly is the anger among a lot of folks I've listened to. 

[meganew]

WTF is happening that two days after the election were suppose to be fretting over the poor feelings of Trump voters and walking on egg shells so they don’t feel shame over their vote. Fuck outta here. I’m not saying that the dems should campaign on this (obviously- and I said it explicitly up thread) but me, as an individual not representing the campaign or Democratic Party as a whole, can absolutely say FUCK THEM.

[abs]

Nov 7, 2024 10:42:51 GMT -5 meganew said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:25:44 GMT -5 acuore said:

That’s a recipe for never winning a national (or many state) elections again. We have to deal with the country and society and fellow citizens we have, not the ones we wish we did. 

Which is exactly what I’m saying! I wish more people wouldn’t vote for him, but that’s not happening- so let’s energize the people (which is a lot) who don’t vote AT ALL.

Totally agree with this. Gaining new voters has to be the number one priority. And work on breaking barriers TO vote. Which will be very hard now with voter suppression.