Of course, if there was no religion, no jews would have been persecuted by no christians, and columbus would have just been an awesome dude, and this thread would be about history.
To those who are arguing against anti-semitism being insignificant to US history or America. Who said that? The drugs? Get off the crack!!!! Read this part real slow and try to think of the meanings of the words: Chris being Jewish is not the same idea as anti-semitism. I think you illiterate morons just like to argue with yourselves, like dogs chasing your own tails. Look down and see it's not my tail you're biting. Haha, freaking morons.
I think Chris's Jewishness is as important to US history as finding out he raised standard poodles instead of persians. Why did you surprised people assume he was not Jewish (or a cat person)? How does it impact his role in US history? Despite all the silly papers everyone wrote (that weren't near as awesome as mine ;D) no one was able to say they learned or believed that Columbus played a significant role in US history by contributing to this or that religion. Well, someone said there was evidence that he was Christian, but I never heard that before and can't refute it. From learning "Columbus sailed the ocean blue," I made no assumptions about his religion and frankly, never cared. Why is it so important who he prayed to? What if he was agnostic, would that be significant too? I'm thinking those shocked and awed by the possible Jewness put a LOT of importance on a person's religous beliefs. He's been dead what, 500+ years? Face it, you'll never know for sure who he worshipped.
It's ok, those not comfortable with the idea of conversing seriously with me, look behind you! There's that naughty tail again! Go get it boy! And tell me what other unawesome papers you wrote, because I have made it a new goal to see how far off in lala land people will go to avoid addressing the topics in these threads and in my posts.
Again, slower this time.... Antisemitism is not the same thing as a Jewish Columbus.
Also, yes all uniforms are hot, even nazi ones. I don't have a problem with liking the styles and accessories of popularly hated groups. I like corn rows, burkas (actually very cooling in direct sun) and leopard print too. Go ahead, tell me how much I suck for it and start extrapolating to all kinds of other character flaws you may imagine I have. Anything to keep from discussing the topics.
Oh don't worry, I never thought we joined WWII to save some Jews. I asked a question and made a statement to see how far in lala land we'll go. Really, who cares when a jew dies besides jews anyway. Was everyone taught that WWII and the holocaust were about jews dying? A lot more people were dying than that - gays, muslims, blacks. I learned that war happened because Hitler invaded other countries. I learned the civil war happened because of succession, not slaves. Again, who cares about the plight of slaves but slaves? We all do realize genocide is going on all the time right?, along with suffering and death and just overall meanness. Hussein and Stalin have killed so many more than Hitler ever did, and Hussein did his within our life times. I think it's odd people jumped to anti-semitism and the holocaust (which wasn't aimed at only Jews) from a story saying Columbus might be Jewish. He was not at the holocaust.... It's a little hard to follow the leaps people are making, even when they have a screen name, it makes no sense.
wawa - The point of having a moderated environment is to avoid pages and pages of wasted time where people argue over nothing. Especially on a political forum, debate and sharing of ideas and opinions is desirable and, some would say, the point. It is possible to have a discussion/debate without getting imbecilic, petty and personally insulting. (well maybe impossible for you and several others). I'm learning from the ones who live here that this place is about unrestrained bashing & belittling of eachother and making wild negative assumptions about eachother's character flaws instead of debating and discussing an important topic. I have to say, once I was corrected on my understanding about the purpose of this board, I've enjoyed it much more. I do deeply care about current events and politics and would much rather discuss the topics in a civil manner. I get bored of being mean on purpose much faster than being productive in a stimulating conversation. I get that that's not true for you and many others, so I'm trying your brand of fun.
Insulting the person or expressing negative opinions about them is not giving a valid argument against their point about a topic. But it's the game in this party. And yes, my cynicism and resentment come from crushed hopes and optimism.
One could argue given the tenuous state of life/death struggle of all Jews during the inquisition period, no Jew could make a true conversion.
Meaning, if conversion would save your ass, could your conversion ever be anything other than a save your hide move? If even 1% of your conversion was a CYA move, is your hand unforced? But that's strictly a philosophical question, I suppose.
This makes me wonder about extending this line of logic (which I agree with) beyond the mortal ass. While truth and God's love, etc., is a part of most modern theistic religions, most of them have a "do this or burn in hell" clause that was much more emphasized historically than it is now. If someone only converts for that reasons, does that count as a true conversion?
Right because Hitler was motivated by his devotion to the Catholic church or the Lutheran church.
You are right of course. I imagine his hatred for jews came from oranges. Or maybe tuesdays? Perhaps it was hats? All we can say for sure is that religion played no part in Hitlers hatred for jews.
All I'm saying is that there have been cases of anti-religious fervor fueling mass murder.
we don't need to look at Hitler for this, either: pogroms of Eastern Europe in the 1800's or hell, both Christian- and Muslim-led pogroms in medieval Spain.
I'm amazed that you just admitted to being on drugs since you said this statement at the very beginning of the thread. It explains so much.
I'm not sure if this is the crack head in question or another tail chaser. As with any crack head or stray dog, I'm not going to take it home no matter how cute it is.
Right because Hitler was motivated by his devotion to the Catholic church or the Lutheran church.
You are right of course. I imagine his hatred for jews came from oranges. Or maybe tuesdays? Perhaps it was hats? All we can say for sure is that religion played no part in Hitlers hatred for jews.
Yes, because that's exactly what I said in this thread.
That is not a reference to you. THat is a reference to another poster in this thread who said exactly that. I'll wait for you apology for being snappish with me. As usual.
Well then perhaps you need to avoid quoting the wrong person when talking about others. And I don't apologize when its demanded of me.
ETA: And I also think you have a complex because I don't make a point of being "snappish" with any particular poster. I really don't think, "Gee, it's whitewolf, let me be snappish to her".
You are right of course. I imagine his hatred for jews came from oranges. Or maybe tuesdays? Perhaps it was hats? All we can say for sure is that religion played no part in Hitlers hatred for jews.
Rumor has it, it was the unrequited love for a jewish girl when he was younger. Or he was just a total fucking sociopath. You know, whatever.
All of those things may be true. He was undoubtably a psycho. However, the very fact that he picked on a religious group makes it seem to me that it wouldn't have happened if there were no religious groups. Maybe he would have picked on tall people, or people with limps? I am sure he would have found one group or another to persecute - religion just made it that much easier is all.
Plus there is no evidence that Hitler was an atheist - which seemed implied by Hab, but I might have been seeing something that wasn't there. And there is some evidence he was a catholic - I have lots of it to hand if you want me to post letters and quotes from Hitler himself, because I get tired of the "Hitler was an atheist" line of attack.
I am not saying his catholic religion "made" him kill jews. But it is likely to have played a part, the same way it would have played a part if he had been a muslim. That doesn't make all catholics evil, and I am not saying anything like that. Its just a thing that was part of the whole, in the same way that his rise to power was "helped" by the other circumstances in Germany at the time.
My comment was simply that religious groups make great scapegoats for other religious groups. Always have, always will. Without such groups, I think there would be a lot less killing. But maybe not.
Rumor has it, it was the unrequited love for a jewish girl when he was younger. Or he was just a total fucking sociopath. You know, whatever.
All of those things may be true. He was undoubtably a psycho. However, the very fact that he picked on a religious group makes it seem to me that it wouldn't have happened if there were no religious groups. Maybe he would have picked on tall people, or people with limps? I am sure he would have found one group or another to persecute - religion just made it that much easier is all.
Plus there is no evidence that Hitler was an atheist - which seemed implied by Hab, but I might have been seeing something that wasn't there. And there is some evidence he was a catholic - I have lots of it to hand if you want me to post letters and quotes from Hitler himself, because I get tired of the "Hitler was an atheist" line of attack.
I am not saying his catholic religion "made" him kill jews. But it is likely to have played a part, the same way it would have played a part if he had been a muslim. That doesn't make all catholics evil, and I am not saying anything like that. Its just a thing that was part of the whole, in the same way that his rise to power was "helped" by the other circumstances in Germany at the time.
My comment was simply that religious groups make great scapegoats for other religious groups. Always have, always will. Without such groups, I think there would be a lot less killing. But maybe not.
Still. GO COLUMBUS lol!
I'm not sure Hitler is the best example here. Given Hitler's Aryan race belief, I'm not sure that religion as much as ethnicity were the major driver in his persecution of the Jews. He was adamant about wiping out all Poles (of any religion), he was a racist, etc., all of which are more related to his "pure race" beliefs than his religious beliefs.
Not that religion hasn't been a direct driver for atrocities, and since it's stuck in my head (thank you, Mel Brooks...)
The Inquisition...what a show...the Inquisition...here we go...
All of those things may be true. He was undoubtably a psycho. However, the very fact that he picked on a religious group makes it seem to me that it wouldn't have happened if there were no religious groups. Maybe he would have picked on tall people, or people with limps? I am sure he would have found one group or another to persecute - religion just made it that much easier is all.
Plus there is no evidence that Hitler was an atheist - which seemed implied by Hab, but I might have been seeing something that wasn't there. And there is some evidence he was a catholic - I have lots of it to hand if you want me to post letters and quotes from Hitler himself, because I get tired of the "Hitler was an atheist" line of attack.
I am not saying his catholic religion "made" him kill jews. But it is likely to have played a part, the same way it would have played a part if he had been a muslim. That doesn't make all catholics evil, and I am not saying anything like that. Its just a thing that was part of the whole, in the same way that his rise to power was "helped" by the other circumstances in Germany at the time.
My comment was simply that religious groups make great scapegoats for other religious groups. Always have, always will. Without such groups, I think there would be a lot less killing. But maybe not.
Still. GO COLUMBUS lol!
I'm not sure Hitler is the best example here. Given Hitler's Aryan race belief, I'm not sure that religion as much as ethnicity were the major driver in his persecution of the Jews. He was adamant about wiping out all Poles (of any religion), he was a racist, etc., all of which are more related to his "pure race" beliefs than his religious beliefs.
Not that religion hasn't been a direct driver for atrocities, and since it's stuck in my head (thank you, Mel Brooks...)
The Inquisition...what a show...the Inquisition...here we go...
I agree. And I think Hitler was an a-hole, and would have been an a-hole whatever religion or philosophy he claimed. I have no doubt that religion was simply a tool he used to do some of the things he wanted to do. All I am saying is that a) religion made it easier for him because there was already a built in prejudice to be used and b) that there is more evidence that Hitler was catholic than any other religion or atheist. Its very little evidence, but it beats the other claims because of that there is none.
ETA I didn't bring up Hitler in the first place. Just saying lol
You're tired of the "Hitler was an atheist" line of attack (which wasn't what I was saying anyway) but you're totally cool with the incorrect "religion is responsible for all human atrocities" line if attack?
It's also rather insulting to keep insisting Hitler killed Jews because of their religion. For starters, he killed gays, the infirm, gypsies, and poles among others for reasons that had nothing to do with religion. And secondly, he killed even Jews who had assimilated into German culture and did not practice Judaism. In fact, a number of them were agnostic or atheists. But if you had a Jewish grandparent, out you went.
Also, Hitler aside, even without religion, there would still be moral, political, ethical, cultural, and economic differences over which man could find reason to justify war, mass murder, and genocide. I'll even go so far as to say that religion has often been a cloak for those reasons.
Honestly, I find the possible discovery of the Roanoke people more interesting than the possible Jewish-ness of Columbus.
Only if finding them also provides an explanation for exactly what happened and why they seemed to have disappeared without leaving any forwarding address whatsoever. And I also want to know what CROATOAN means.
Otherwise, no. CC being Jewish is more interesting.
I'd really like to know what happened to Virginia Dare.
The Holocaust was about religion because the group targeted was a religious group, but it was not like the holy wars or something where one religious group was trying to wipe out another religious group. It has its roots primarily in WWI and in the economy of both Germany and the United States (to the extent Germany owed the US a truck load of money). Hitler didn't "use religion" to perpetrate the Holocaust the way King Ferdinand of Spain used it to perpetrate the Inquisition. A religious group was the victim and a primarily economic backdrop was behind it.
Yes, I agree with this.
However, I'd also like to add that he went after the Jews because of their ethnicity moreso than their religious practice. He wasn't worried they were having seders in the basement.
Which is not a contradiction of what you're saying. I'm just agreeing and adding to your explanation.
We all learned history so differently! Isn't it interesting?
I understood that Hitler was originally a Jew who wasn't able to become a rabbi like he wanted. Many believe resentment over this rejection by the Temple authorities is the main reason, besides the already present hate for Jewish creditors, that Jews were a group targeted by the holocaust. I don't believe motivations can be proven or disproven, only theorized, while actual facts can be investigated for accuracy. I believe it's a provable fact (of I don't have his rabbi school transcript) that he tried to become a rabbi and failed. This information was consistent from junior high through college in my experience.
I was taught he was also a failed painter, a fecophile and had an oedipus complex. I have never heard that he was Christian or Catholic. Unlike Columbus (good ole Chris), I feel it would be quite significant to the whole world to learn Hitler (good ole poop eater) was part of some religion other than disillusioned Jewish given the significant legacy of harm and hate he spawned towards a religious group amongst others.
I see no one else was taught that other groups besides Jews were targeted for "cleansing" during WWII. Soon they'll just stop teaching about it at all I think. Some places, especially in Europe, want to take it out of the history books so people can let go of old hate and heal. If it works over there, they may drop teaching about slavery over here so people can just let it go. I disagree with omitting actual facts from history, but if it helps promote acceptance and put an end to prejudices carriend on generations after the crime, maybe it would be best. This is another reason I don't want the government controlling the content of history education.
I realize that Nazis were people too. I realize that hating them all as a group and as a people is as silly as hating all Americans for the decisions of our commander in chief. That hate moves off into irrational prejudice when you think even the clothes they wear is evil. I bet some hate the swastica as well. I think you hate what it means to you, genocide, hate, whatever. That doesn't make the symbol itself evil. The swastica was a symbol of peace and neverending cycles in nature before Hitler used it as his icon. It could mean that again if we'd commonly believe it.