If this makes me brainwashed, so be it but I cannot countenance a world where everyone who does not fit a certain arbitrary physical ideal should be rooted out and killed in some of the most brutal ways possible. Google the Einsatzgruppen then come tell me the Nazis are just a political party we should respect.
We agree on the Nazi history. You're not brainwashed with random hate mongering prop. You have the same info I do minus insignificant details about poo eating. We just differ in our final conclusion on whether these people can be respected today. No Nazi has ever hurt me. I hate genocide, but I don't hate Nazis. I see them as people with a bad turn in their past and some opinions on who's better and more worthy than who. That sounds like a lot of individuals and groups I know today including Americans.
I can respect a people without sharing their ideals and forgive a group of people for a past crime without condoning that crime. Like the cashier supervisor that did his time and should be free of past crimes, the Nazis have done no genocide since Hitlers fall. I also disagree with the idea that ALL Nazis, even little kid Nazis and ole granny Nazis, hate to the extremes of Hitlers day. Just like the Christian doctrine can evolve to accept gays, the Nazi doctrine can evolve to accept other races. You wouldn't let your kid play with a Nazi kid? Would you save a Nazi kid from drowning? Maybe I misunderstand your stand against Nazis as a stand against each Nazi, today, now. Am I misinterpreting you?
I'm against being hateful and continuing to punish any whole group of people for past crimes or crimes of the few. I agree with hating and condemning evil actions like genocide or rape, but not groups of people who are now living at peace with you.
And I don't mean to imply Nazi and German are synonymous.
We agree on the Nazi history. You're not brainwashed with random hate mongering prop. You have the same info I do minus insignificant details about poo eating. We just differ in our final conclusion on whether these people can be respected today. No Nazi has ever hurt me. I hate genocide, but I don't hate Nazis. I see them as people with a bad turn in their past and some opinions on who's better and more worthy than who. That sounds like a lot of individuals and groups I know today including Americans.
I can respect a people without sharing their ideals and forgive a group of people for a past crime without condoning that crime. Like the cashier supervisor that did his time and should be free of past crimes, the Nazis have done no genocide since Hitlers fall. I also disagree with the idea that ALL Nazis, even little kid Nazis and ole granny Nazis, hate to the extremes of Hitlers day. Just like the Christian doctrine can evolve to accept gays, the Nazi doctrine can evolve to accept other races. You wouldn't let your kid play with a Nazi kid? Would you save a Nazi kid from drowning? Maybe I misunderstand your stand against Nazis as a stand against each Nazi, today, now. Am I misinterpreting you?
I'm against being hateful and continuing to punish any whole group of people for past crimes or crimes of the few. I agree with hating and condemning evil actions like genocide or rape, but not groups of people who are now living at peace with you.
And I don't mean to imply Nazi and German are synonymous.
With all due respect, are you out of your fucking mind? Where do you come up with this bullshit?
There is no forgiving the crimes of Nazi Germany. None whatsoever. Germans, yes. Nazis, no. Nazis then and Nazis now....no. There is nothing good about a Nazi.
"The goal of both Nazism as well as fascism in general, to promote the right of superior people to dominate while purging society of claimed inferior elements; and particularly in the case of Nazism, genocide of people deemed to be inferior"
Ok, you can flame me, but I'm stepping back to think about both of these arguments. The only reason I'm not 100% for one side or the other is because I'm not educated on the practices and doctrine of the Nazi party TODAY. I see where Seesaw is coming from that parties can change/turn new leaves over time, especially given the timespan we are talking about. I'm not saying they did, but acknowledging it as a possibility, and if this were the case, I would also choose not to hate an entire group of people based on their dark past, many of which had nothing to do with it. Do any of us want to be judged throughout our lives based on a past beyond our control or even before we were born? America has some shady things in our past, and I would hate for others in the world to not give me a chance and just choose to hate me because of things I had nothing to do with, and just bc I'm an American. It does happen a lot bc so many people have disdain for Americans, but that's why you have to look at the individual as opposed to the whole. I am in no way excusing the actions of Hitler or his drones, as it's an absolutely horrific piece of world history that will forever be remembered for its effect on the entire world. I can also see the potential of the other side, if Nazis today aren't what they once were..I want to look it up now.
No, we did once have a thread on the old nest where I said the nazi uniform was smart looking and that some actors looked damned fine in one. But I clarified that I wouldn't find an actual nazi in a nazi uniform hot under any circumstances.
Would any body who can't forgive the Nazis help the drowning Nazi child? If there's a single person who would not save it, I can't say this attitude doesn't suck completely. To me, that inaction would be turning unjustified hate into action, which I can't condone.
Ok, you can flame me, but I'm stepping back to think about both of these arguments. The only reason I'm not 100% for one side or the other is because I'm not educated on the practices and doctrine of the Nazi party TODAY. I see where Seesaw is coming from that parties can change/turn new leaves over time, especially given the timespan we are talking about. I'm not saying they did, but acknowledging it as a possibility, and if this were the case, I would also choose not to hate an entire group of people based on their dark past, many of which had nothing to do with it. Do any of us want to be judged throughout our lives based on a past beyond our control or even before we were born? America has some shady things in our past, and I would hate for others in the world to not give me a chance and just choose to hate me because of things I had nothing to do with, and just bc I'm an American. It does happen a lot bc so many people have disdain for Americans, but that's why you have to look at the individual as opposed to the whole. I am in no way excusing the actions of Hitler or his drones, as it's an absolutely horrific piece of world history that will forever be remembered for its effect on the entire world. I can also see the potential of the other side, if Nazis today aren't what they once were..I want to look it up now.
I see what you're saying here, but at a certain point doesn't it just make sense to tear it all down and start again? I will admit that, like you, I don't know anything about the Nazi party today (if there even is such a thing that is politically viable today-- I feel like openly Nazi groups are predominantly on the right-wing fringe), but it would seem to me that rather than try to fix the image of a party that, as others have said, is predicated on prejudice, people should let the party die and start again if they are truly trying to turn over a new leaf. It's like, if the KKK started doing canned food drives and helping orphans in an effort to rebrand themselves, I still wouldn't be able to get over the whole cross-burning and lynching thing that's a core part of their history. The analogy to America doesn't really work for me because that's a whole nation, not a political group designed with a specific agenda.
I do think that there's a difference between the avid Nazis and the passive bystanders who joined for personal or political gain. If I remember the history correctly, Oscar Schindler was technically a member of the party, but not necessarily because he believed in its ideals, and I would imagine that many other people were (but didn't go on to rescue Jews as he did). So I can see both sides of that-- I don't think these people are totally off the hook and they should be accountable for what they supported, but they don't rise to the level of Dr. Mengele in terms of evil.
Simon Wiesenthal's book The Sunflower deals with the issue of forgiveness. He sets up a scenario in which a dying Nazi asks a concentration camp inmate to forgive him so that he can be absolved. It was written and published in the 70s, so the issue was more immediate at the time. After the scenario, there are essays by a range of scholars and activists (the Dalai Lama is one that I remember) stating whether the inmate should forgive the Nazi.
To get back to the original topic, I find this to be a fascinating question. Growing up in yeshiva, I learned that the facts on Columbus were inconclusive but that it is likely that many of his crew members were marranos, so this wasn't a total surprise to me.
Sorry to those of you hoping that this topic will die... I know I'm super late jumping in but just read it today