I was reading this blog (Rebecca Wolf at Girl's Gone Child) who has 4 kids, two who were surprise twins, and she says that she gets judgmental looks and comments every time she takes them out somewhere. Just wondering if this is a thing or if maybe she's imagining it?
They live in LA where large families are not the norm, which is probably part of it.
I had 3 girls in 4 years and people always made comments or just looked at me when we were all out together in the grocery store or at the bank or whatever. I like to think it is b/c my kids are so darn cute, but then they would say things like "You know ow this keeps happening, right?" or "Whoa, you've got your hands full." It never bothered me other than the fact that I have 3 little kids, i don't have much time for side conversations - obviously we need whatever we happen to be there for or I would be at home or the park or somewhere fun!!!
Post by daydreamer on Jan 24, 2013 14:14:26 GMT -5
Yes. Of course. My values are that no family in the "first" world should have more than replacement value number of children (except by adoption).
OTOH, I do appreciate the heads up that a couple does not share these values and that certain topics must be avoided in the interest of social niceties.
I was reading this blog (Rebecca Wolf at Girl's Gone Child) who has 4 kids, two who were surprise twins, and she says that she gets judgmental looks and comments every time she takes them out somewhere. Just wondering if this is a thing or if maybe she's imagining it?
They live in LA where large families are not the norm, which is probably part of it.
I highly doubt this. She must be paranoid.
Lol I don't doubt it! We get crazy looks.
I don't judge. A big family is not for me but if you can afford it and want a housefull then more power to you!
My neighbor and good friend is of the quiverfull persuasion (let God decide the size of your family), though they are not very much like the Duggars in other ways (no requirements for long hair, modest dress, etc.). They're very religious and have a lot of friends from church who share their beliefs. My neighbor is pregnant with her 4th right now and has many friends who have 5, 6, 7, 8 kids. They often end up playing at my neighbor's; I've been over there when there's been another big family visiting and it is complete madness.
I wouldn't want it for a second. I am an atheist so I really can't wrap my mind around the reasons behind their choices. But they all seem happy, if tired. The lifestyle is not for me but I don't really judge it; it doesn't impact my life in any way.
Yes I do. But I don't ever say anything to the parents, although I think it and may remark to whoever is with me at the time. And it doesn't have anything to do with their economic level and whether they can afford stuff. I just think there's no possible way (even if they have them far apart) they can have enough quality time with each child, and each additional child takes more attention away from the previous ones. Plus it strains resources for the family.
I had four, 20+ years ago, and got looks back then for having a "large" family. We were military and it was pretty much the norm before ex became disabled and we joined the real world. My brother has six kids (three bio and three adopted via foster-to-adopt) and doesn't seem to get as many looks but then again he's a country-boy homeschooler and I was citified yuppie. I don't think she's imagining the looks, unless I was imagining them too.
No. But I'm one of 4 so there's that ha. I don't even consider 4 big. My mom said she did have people make a few comments to her when we were younger and when people found out she was Catholic they would be like "ohhhh that explains it". Or maybe my mom just liked kids?
So long as the kids have a decent roof over their head, they aren't sleeping in rubbermaid tubs a la Emily $1k/mo blogger (for instance, IMO you need to have at least a 3 BR house to have 4 kids so long as you have 2 boys, 2 girls or all one gender), are well-fed and clothed, why would I? Having a lot of kids is just as much a valid choice as having one or none.
Yes I do. But I don't ever say anything to the parents, although I think it and may remark to whoever is with me at the time. And it doesn't have anything to do with their economic level and whether they can afford stuff. I just think there's no possible way (even if they have them far apart) they can have enough quality time with each child, and each additional child takes more attention away from the previous ones. Plus it strains resources for the family.
I think you contradict yourself--you say "it doesn't have anything to do with economic level and whether they can afford stuff" and then say "it strains resources for the family." If the family has the resources to provide for however many children, then shouldn't that be their decision? My parents had 4 kids in 5 years and although it was not easy, they managed to do it (put all 4 of us through college and grad school (while still financing their own retirement/homes/etc.))...
I also think this makes a lot of assumptions about large families...plus, who is to say that parents of 2 children, or even 1 child, give more attention to their children just because there are fewer? For example, a neglectful or workaholic parent of 1 may give the child less attention than a loving parent of 4.
Yes. Of course. My values are that no family in the "first" world should have more than replacement value number of children (except by adoption).
OTOH, I do appreciate the heads up that a couple does not share these values and that certain topics must be avoided in the interest of social niceties.
You do know that in most "first" world countries, fertility rates are actually on the decline at an alarming rate, right?
I know a woman who was secretly getting Depo shots every three months because she had no control over when she had sex with her husband. She married at 16 and had 4 children by 21. Because her husband didn't attend any of the births at the hospital she was finally able to get access to some birth control. Until one day the free clinic where she was getting the shots called and accidentally got her husband on the phone. Then he beat the crap out of her. ...
I know this sort of thing happens, and it makes me so sad. I judge the hell out of the father in this situation.
I am surprised so few people judge large families on this board given some of the debates that have gone down in CE&P on the same topic. For people who want very large families, I'll throw my hat into the judgmental ring purely for environmental reasons, though I'd never say anything to the families who make this choice and I would defend with all my might the right to make the choice (I would never support any sort of legislation on family planning).
Of course not. My mom came from a family of 7 so perhaps I just grew up thinking that was the norm. My dad coming from a family of three kids seemed small to me. Yet I was an only child...lol.
If we had the resources we wanted to have 5. At this point we can't decide on a 3rd.
What? How do they have no say in their own reproduction?
I totally judge people who are on assistance with a large family. Otherwise, I don't care in the least.
Because they don't have control over when they have sex with their partner and they come from a culture/religious tradition that makes access to effective contraceptives and other family planning solutions extremely difficult.
I know a woman who was secretly getting Depo shots every three months because she had no control over when she had sex with her husband. She married at 16 and had 4 children by 21. Because her husband didn't attend any of the births at the hospital she was finally able to get access to some birth control. Until one day the free clinic where she was getting the shots called and accidentally got her husband on the phone. Then he beat the crap out of her.
But yeah, I'd prefer to live in your world where you pretend all women are in equal relationships.
ETA: and the woman I am referring to had not a single day of formal education until she was 19. So I would love to hear your advice to an illiterate, non-English speaking (at the time she immigrated), teenager who has spent her entire life in a refugee camp as to how she can make a power play in her marriage to a man who is twice her age and controls all of her access to anything outside of their apartment. I'm sure you could have totes solved all of her problems with your incredulous attitude.
Well excuse my privileged innocence, but there's no need for snark. I come from a family and culture where men respect women, thankfully enough. If this woman is in the US, and she has access to Depo and birth control, she must have some semblance of the extent of her rights here and should be able to access those rights.
If you know this much of her history, and her abusive relationship, have you counseled her to leave?
@ genet you sound very sheltered. It is simply a reality for women who may be in abusive relationships that they are not allowed to control their own reproduction. They may not be allowed to use birth control and their partner refuses to use condoms.
No I don't judge large families.
I don't consider myself sheltered, I live in a large urban area and am highly educated. Although I fully admit that I certainly do not socialize in those circles, nor do I personally know anybody who comes from that background. Thankfully for me and my circles, I suppose.
I certainly don't pretend it doesn't happen, I just didn't grasp the full context of the OP, hence, what seems like ignorance. It makes me sick and sad to think of women who are in situations like that. But I like to think (and I may be wrong, but the OP's follow-up leads me to believe I am not) that the US offers enough affordable resources that are accessible to a large majority of women in that situation who (even if it has to be covert) can take advantage of them and control their own reproductive rights.
Absolutely. My choice is to have 1-2 children, which, obviously, I think is best. If I didn't think that way, it wouldn't be my choice, right?
My grandfather was one of 11 and it really sucked. He himself only had 2 children. He was the second-oldest and his youngest sister was a preemie, and he basically was forced to drop out of school to help support his family. I know many younger children of big families who say it was really fun, but I know a lot of older children of big families who say it was a lot of work.
I don't think it's fair to the kids at a certain point, because there's less one-on-one attention. Which isn't to say they are neglected at all, just that it's a different sort of relationship you have with your parents vs. your siblings.
There's the environmental issue and resource issue.
There's the financial issue. Private college costing $500k in 20 years? Yeah, I don't think I can afford more than 1 or 2 college educations. Not to mention, I'd likely be forced to pick public school, which isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, I just would like the option of being able to send my kids to whatever school was a good fit for them and not just the only thing we could do financially.
That's all to say - these are priorities for me. They might not be for others. And that's fine. I in no way would support limits on family size. I would absolutely never say this to someone or make a comment about them having too many kids. But nor can I say, öh, well, I have no opinion about that" because I obviously do.
(I do have a friend with 4 kids, a house, 2 kids in private school, who doesn't work and is going to nursing school part time and I kind of wonder how she can afford it!)
OH and as for those who use public assistance - shit happens. I hope no one here ever has to deal with using welfare.
Growing up, having 4 kids was the norm, but that was then. I don't judge people with large families. I just sometimes wonder why. But that's my own issue since I wouldn't want to be pregnant that many times. My aunt (mum's youngest sister by maybe 20 years) has 5 kids and we all did wonder why, even those that had 4 kids back then.
Now that she has her citizenship they are divorced and she is raising four kids on welfare and food stamps. Which is why she is such a great example. Because she is everything everyone in this thread claims to hate. She is working on a GED, but she had no education whatsoever as a child so it is really, really hard, ONCE someone took a chance on her and offered a woman with no work experience/history, no credit history, no references and limited literacy a job. But she eventually had to quit when childcare fell through. She also has an iphone (that I handed down to her when I upgraded), and her nails are always done because I like to drag her along when I go to do mine. H watches the kids so we can have some girl time together. I'm sure the haters are hatin' when she rolls up to the register with her french manicure, four kids, food stamps and an iphone.
Because she came to the US on a fiance visa her status could have been disrupted if she had left him sooner and she could have been deported (fraudulent marriage)and separated from her US citizen children. The only option for an immigrant woman in that situation is to make an asylum claim, but that is extremely difficult to do/prove/win. There are way more immigrant women in this country (from all regions, cultures, and religions)in a similar situation than anyone would like to admit.
This sounds to me like the exception to the "rule" (and I use "rule" very loosely), and I'm not denying that there are probably more women in this situation than I care to admit. Very few people, and certainly not me, would judge an immigrant who temporarily accepts assistance to better her own life and get out of an abusive situation.
I'm happy she has found someone like you who can help her out of a terrible situation. And for other women like her, with similar assistance. But if you try to deny that there are many able-bodied women, not in abusive situations, who forego BC just because, take the risk that they will become pregnant, even knowing they cannot support a child, then you are the sheltered one. It cuts both ways - for every good story, there is a bad one.
Judge? Why? I am in awe of anyone who can successfully parent when they have a large number of kids. A large number of kids while you are a single mom on welfare - well, that I do judge. It is time to stop having kids you cannot support.
Yes there are stupid people everywhere. But when I see someone on the street with x+1 number of kids I have no idea whether they are stupid. Hence, not judging.
Now if I know you very very well and I know that you are stupid as hell, I will judge. But the vast majority of the population doesn't fall into the "very well known to me" category!
But I LOL that she will be on assistance for a "short time." She has way too many cards stacked against her and far too few opportunities. She's very bright and very hardworking. But starting a kindergarten level education at 19 when you already have several kids and can't afford childcare is not going to lead to success in all but the luckiest of cases. Best case scenario her kids make a lot of money and because she had them so young, she can just move in with one of them in her 40s. Or since she is still young (and gorgeous) some wealthy man can look beyond the fact that she already has "too many" kids and marry her
Finally, I'd say that it's naive to think that women like this aren't in "your circles." Maybe everyone you associated with was born in the US, is highly educated, well compensated and seemingly has everything going for them. That doesn't mean they are not in an abusive relationship.
I hope for her sake it is a short time. Thankfully for her, we live in a liberal society with public assistance that she can take advantage of. I do hope she becomes a productive member of society and even if it takes years, it sounds like she is trying, and I respect that completely.
And yes, I know, there are abusers all around. Growing up my neighbor across the street was abused, and no, you would never know from the outside. She had 3 boys, lived in a huge house with plenty of money and no cares. Her DH was a complete shit, and beat the crap out of her.
But guess what? She left. There's NOTHING forcing any woman in this country to stay in an abusive relationship, not take BC and have unwanted children. There are resources all around to help women get out of situations like this. And before you get all up in arms, yes, I understand that in some cultural circles there may be intense pressure to stay in relationships, divorce is frowned upon, etc. But you can't deny the options are there.
Post by goaskalice on Jan 24, 2013 18:08:56 GMT -5
I'm late to this party, but apparently agree with the majority here. Have as many kids as you want as long as you can take care of them. If we had more money I know my DW would love to have a huge family(adopted and foster kids), her father was 1 of 7, but we're not quite there yet.
Yes I do. But I don't ever say anything to the parents, although I think it and may remark to whoever is with me at the time. And it doesn't have anything to do with their economic level and whether they can afford stuff. I just think there's no possible way (even if they have them far apart) they can have enough quality time with each child, and each additional child takes more attention away from the previous ones. Plus it strains resources for the family.
I think you contradict yourself--you say "it doesn't have anything to do with economic level and whether they can afford stuff" and then say "it strains resources for the family." If the family has the resources to provide for however many children, then shouldn't that be their decision? My parents had 4 kids in 5 years and although it was not easy, they managed to do it (put all 4 of us through college and grad school (while still financing their own retirement/homes/etc.))...
I also think this makes a lot of assumptions about large families...plus, who is to say that parents of 2 children, or even 1 child, give more attention to their children just because there are fewer? For example, a neglectful or workaholic parent of 1 may give the child less attention than a loving parent of 4.
With respect to my resources comment, I was thinking particularly about time (uh, kids are needy) although money can be tighter and different choices have to be made (e.g., fewer of this, cheaper of that) but that doesn't mean they can't afford basic stuff - they are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure people "manage" fine with multiple kids, but it is at a cost. And I was not arguing that parents of a couple kids assuredly give them more time than parents of several - only noting that they are more likely to be able to. There are only so many minutes/hours in a day that have to be divvied up amongst many in a larger family, including the parents themselves. What if there is a special needs child (mental or physical)? Plus I don't think older kids should be asked/expected to take care of younger kids because there are so many the parents need help. It happens.
Anyways, I can judge if I want, I don't expect anyone to change their minds, but she asked if people judge and I do.
No. I am the youngest of 5 siblings. However, I don't like situations where children are effectively parenting their siblings, and that seems more common in very large (maybe 7+ kid) families.
i do believe that large families get comments. When my cousin had her 4th child people assumed it was an oops and some were quite vocal about it. It was really rude.
I came from a family of 4...so I don't really consider that "large" by any means.
Looking back now, growing up with 3 siblings I can see now that my parents were spread thin. When I vacation with my kids, I can afford to fly with two. We only ever went on vacations that were driving distance. We didn't eat out unless it was a "special" occasion. My sister got hand-me-downs from me. We all paid our own way through college. I never felt like my parents had to divide their time or that I didn't get enough attention and despite it all, I went on to want 4 children...even if I did only end up with two. After having 2, I decided that I wasn't cut out to parent more than what I have. I tend to look at those with 4 with either awe (if their kids are well behaved) or pity (if it looks like it's too much and the parents are having one of those days...but that can happen with 1 or 2!) I would hope that either look never comes off as judgmental though. I really respect those that have the means and the patience to do it.
Genet, are you new? You aren't coming across very well in this post and the fact that you're arguing with mx about this is unbelievable (hence me thinking you're new).
I think you contradict yourself--you say "it doesn't have anything to do with economic level and whether they can afford stuff" and then say "it strains resources for the family." If the family has the resources to provide for however many children, then shouldn't that be their decision? My parents had 4 kids in 5 years and although it was not easy, they managed to do it (put all 4 of us through college and grad school (while still financing their own retirement/homes/etc.))...
I also think this makes a lot of assumptions about large families...plus, who is to say that parents of 2 children, or even 1 child, give more attention to their children just because there are fewer? For example, a neglectful or workaholic parent of 1 may give the child less attention than a loving parent of 4.
With respect to my resources comment, I was thinking particularly about time (uh, kids are needy) although money can be tighter and different choices have to be made (e.g., fewer of this, cheaper of that) but that doesn't mean they can't afford basic stuff - they are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure people "manage" fine with multiple kids, but it is at a cost. And I was not arguing that parents of a couple kids assuredly give them more time than parents of several - only noting that they are more likely to be able to. There are only so many minutes/hours in a day that have to be divvied up amongst many in a larger family, including the parents themselves. What if there is a special needs child (mental or physical)? Plus I don't think older kids should be asked/expected to take care of younger kids because there are so many the parents need help. It happens.
Anyways, I can judge if I want, I don't expect anyone to change their minds, but she asked if people judge and I do.
I see. I guess I just figured that your reference to "resources" wasn't regarding time since you specifically mentioned time in the previous sentence.
So many of your concerns seem to be "what ifs"---what if there is a large age gap requiring children to take care of others, what if there is a special needs child...You judge large families because you assume these worst case scenarios must exist in those families. However, it's possible that none of those things exist, and you're just judging based on your own unfounded assumptions/stereotypes.
Of course you can judge, and I don't expect you to change your mind, but that doesn't mean I have to think/agree that your logic is correct.