Large families

[genet313]

Jan 24, 2013 19:29:57 GMT -5 ijack said:

Genet, are you new? You aren't coming across very well in this post and the fact that you're arguing with mx about this is unbelievable (hence me thinking you're new).

Of course I'm new, posting for about 2 months I guess, though I have been lurking for about 2 years now.   Never did an AMA, do you want one

I stand by my arguments - I feel for women in abusive relationships, and would not wish that on anyone.  I also agree with mx about her particular experience, and don't deny that there are many women in similar experiences as the woman she described.   I'm not judging those women or the number of children they had due to circumstances.    

However, as mx has clearly described, there are resources for women in abusive relationships to get out and control their reproductive futures.   We live in a society that values choice, most people value reproductive choice, and we offer government-funded and privately-funded BC choices for women in need.  You can't deny that.  

I judge women not like the one mx described, but women who have access to these resources and still continue to have multiple children they can't support.  If that makes you dislike me, I'm OK with that.   

[Deleted]

genet-- mx's whole point is you don't know someone's story until you know them, so don't judge them until you do.

[genet313]

Jan 24, 2013 19:54:30 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

genet-- mx's whole point is you don't know someone's story until you know them, so don't judge them until you do.

Yeah, I get it...my response is that her story seems the exception to the rule.   What do you think about the women who are not in a similar situation as mx's friend?  Do you judge them?  I'm saying I do.

[ijack]

You sound very privileged about it. I get that no one likes to think about stuff like what mx posted happening, but it's not really as simple as "well they live in America and have access to choices." And saying that the majority of the country values reproductive choices is just naive unfortunately.

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2013 19:57:02 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 24, 2013 19:54:30 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

genet-- mx's whole point is you don't know someone's story until you know them, so don't judge them until you do.

Yeah, I get it...my response is that her story seems the exception to the rule.   What do you think about the women who are not in a similar situation as mx's friend?  Do you judge them?  I'm saying I do.

How do you know mx's friend is the exception the rule? You even say yourself that you "certainly" don't hang out in those social circles.  

[genet313]

Jan 24, 2013 20:01:33 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Jan 24, 2013 19:57:02 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Yeah, I get it...my response is that her story seems the exception to the rule.   What do you think about the women who are not in a similar situation as mx's friend?  Do you judge them?  I'm saying I do.

How do you know mx's friend is the exception the rule? You even say yourself that you "certainly" don't hang out in those social circles.  

Really? Are you really now arguing that everyone on welfare is in similar circumstances as mx's friend?  I know you're not...I don't even want to actually question you on this, but I can't ignore it.  

[genet313]

Jan 24, 2013 19:59:47 GMT -5 ijack said:

You sound very privileged about it. I get that no one likes to think about stuff like what mx posted happening, but it's not really as simple as "well they live in America and have access to choices." And saying that the majority of the country values reproductive choices is just naive unfortunately.

Again, I'm not trying to simplify the issue by arguing that leaving an abusive relationship where you have no control over your reproductive choices is simple or easy.  I'm just saying that there are options for women in those situations and they are somewhat readily available.  If mx's friend, an immigrant with limited education and financial independence, can get Depo, many women probably can.

Also, a majority of the country does value reproductive choice - though I agree more conservative political factions in this country try to attack reproductive rights, and sadly sometimes succeed, we still offer widespread access to BC.   We discuss contraceptives in our public schools.  We hand out free condoms and fund Planned Parenthood.  There are lots of options.  

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2013 20:04:55 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 24, 2013 20:01:33 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

How do you know mx's friend is the exception the rule? You even say yourself that you "certainly" don't hang out in those social circles.  

Really? Are you really now arguing that everyone on welfare is in similar circumstances as mx's friend?  I know you're not...I don't even want to actually question you on this, but I can't ignore it.  

That is NOT what I am saying. I am saying, how do you know everyone's story? I'm not going to make a blanket statement and judge someone because I don't know their story.

Are you really this dense?

[agnes]

I judge people that have more than 10+ kids. I'm not getting into the whole affordability/welfare thing going on in here. I admit I've only skimmed the first and last page.

[genet313]

Jan 24, 2013 20:10:09 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Jan 24, 2013 20:04:55 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Really? Are you really now arguing that everyone on welfare is in similar circumstances as mx's friend?  I know you're not...I don't even want to actually question you on this, but I can't ignore it.  

That is NOT what I am saying. I am saying, how do you know everyone's story? I'm not going to make a blanket statement and judge someone because I don't know their story.

Are you really this dense?

Dude, come on.  I've stated in 3 previous posts no, I don't know everyone's story.  I get that.  All I am saying that not everyone has a story like mx...and, accepting that premise, I judge those people.   

ETA: Maybe this will help clarify for you - I'm trying to illuminate the difference between pre-judgment and judgment.  MX pointed out that I shouldn't pre-judge, see her story.  And I 100% accept that, and agree with her.  However, I'm saying that you can't just assume everyone has a unique story, and if you examine all the people with multiple children on government assistance, I judge the people who don't have the unique story.  

Does that ease your pain over my responses a bit?

[aurora]

Jan 24, 2013 20:08:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 24, 2013 19:59:47 GMT -5 ijack said:

You sound very privileged about it. I get that no one likes to think about stuff like what mx posted happening, but it's not really as simple as "well they live in America and have access to choices." And saying that the majority of the country values reproductive choices is just naive unfortunately.

Again, I'm not trying to simplify the issue by arguing that leaving an abusive relationship where you have no control over your reproductive choices is simple or easy.  I'm just saying that there are options for women in those situations and they are somewhat readily available.  If mx's friend, an immigrant with limited education and financial independence, can get Depo, many women probably can.

Also, a majority of the country does value reproductive choice - though I agree more conservative political factions in this country try to attack reproductive rights, and sadly sometimes succeed, we still offer widespread access to BC.   We discuss contraceptives in our public schools.  We hand out free condoms and fund Planned Parenthood.  There are lots of options. 

Do you realize that these (bolded) statements really aren't true in numerous parts of the country now?  I haven't looked up overall stats on nationwide views on reproductive choice but you're probably right that >50% of the US population overall believes women should have some control over their own reproduction, but that's because cities are overwhelmingly more liberal.  There are a lot of rural parts of the country where women don't have access to affordable clinics, Planned Parenthood or otherwise.  There are lots of schools that no longer teach about contraceptives.  Many people don't actually have lots of options.

And, I don't think you really understand the psychological damage that abuse does and how isolating it can be.  Maybe mx's friend was able to escape the cycle in part because she had an knowledgeable, compassionate friend like mx who has stood by her in the face of the overwhelming system.  Not everybody has access to that kind of support.

[steph96]

All I think about Is how their vehicle choices suck. I always imagine how much it would suck having to transport all the kids plus their friends. I also think about how much it would suck if they tried to eat at a restaurant on a whim-especially once the kids start getting married and having kids.

I just think about the logistics of everyday life and how different it must be.

[msmerymac]

Jan 24, 2013 19:57:02 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 24, 2013 19:54:30 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

genet-- mx's whole point is you don't know someone's story until you know them, so don't judge them until you do.

Yeah, I get it...my response is that her story seems the exception to the rule.   What do you think about the women who are not in a similar situation as mx's friend?  Do you judge them?  I'm saying I do.

Over half of all live births are unplanned pregnancies. So we're saying that your philosophy of "just use resources and birth control" seems simplistic at best.

[Deleted]

Is this tamily obnoxious on Facebook?

No?

No judgement here.

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2013 13:12:59 GMT -5 h said:

Jan 24, 2013 12:19:58 GMT -5 @lcap said:

Yeah I got these kind of comments a lot when I was pg. with # 3. As well as the near universal assumption that we were trying for a girl

Oh, how I want to punch the "were you trying for a girl" people in the face. Especially the ones who say things like "oh no," "what will you do?," or "bless your heart" upon hearing that it's a third boy.

 That's horrible. People are so tactless.

[genet313]

Jan 25, 2013 0:26:55 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jan 24, 2013 19:57:02 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Yeah, I get it...my response is that her story seems the exception to the rule.   What do you think about the women who are not in a similar situation as mx's friend?  Do you judge them?  I'm saying I do.

Over half of all live births are unplanned pregnancies. So we're saying that your philosophy of "just use resources and birth control" seems simplistic at best.

I don't think that statistic says what you want it to say.  For starters, is this US or worldwide?  I'll assume it's US.  

Let's take out people like MX's friend from that stat.  Though I can't offer any specifics, I'd venture to guess people like that are less than 10% of the unplanned pregnancies.  More likely it's less than 5%.  A very, very small percentage.  No judgment.

Next, let's say you have people who use BC and it fails, which we know does happen.  But even that is a small percentage, probably 15-20%, because we know BC is highly effective.  Even with failure, some of these people can still want, love and afford to raise that child.  Again no judgement either way, that situation just sucks.    

So all of that, all of those exceptional circumstances gets you to maybe 20-30% of all unplanned pregnancies.

So then you have the rest.  People who have access to BC and don't use it.  People who just take the risk, knowing they can't afford a baby, knowing they can't raise them and still go on to have kids.  It's these people that I judge.  

I'll even acknowledge that just b/c a pregnancy is unplanned doesn't mean it's (a) unwanted or (b) that the parents can't afford to raise that child.  I don't judge any parents who have an oops baby but can afford to raise that baby and want and love and care for that baby.  

It's the people in the third category that I judge.   And it's those people, that have access to BC, have the resources, but still choose not to use them, that I judge.  

So maybe you're right.  Maybe all the resources and BC in the world won't help some people, b/c some people just don't give a shit and take the risk regardless.  How is judgment not warranted there? 

 

[Deleted]

Genet, you keep digging yourself into a bigger hole. How about citing some sources instead of making up numbers out of your ass?

phys.org/news/2011-05-unplanned-pregnancies-percent.html - 40% of pregnancies in the US are unplanned- - and those numbers are sky high in certain states.

According to the analysis released Thursday, the highest rates were in the South, Southwest and in states with large urban populations. Highest was Mississippi with 69 per 1,000 women ages 15-44; lowest was New Hampshire, with 36 per 1,000. "There are many, many reasons why people don't plan ahead, even when it's such a crucial decision," says Claire Brindis, director of the Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health at the University of California-San Francisco, who was not involved in the analysis. Brindis says difficulty in finding family planning services and lack of access to birth control contribute to the high numbers of unintended pregnancies.


another article- www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html -- this one says even higher-
• About half (49%) of the 6.7 million pregnancies in the United States each year (3.2 million) are unintended (see box).[6]

I can keep going.

[genet313]

Jan 24, 2013 21:05:36 GMT -5 aurora said:

Jan 24, 2013 20:08:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Again, I'm not trying to simplify the issue by arguing that leaving an abusive relationship where you have no control over your reproductive choices is simple or easy.  I'm just saying that there are options for women in those situations and they are somewhat readily available.  If mx's friend, an immigrant with limited education and financial independence, can get Depo, many women probably can.

Also, a majority of the country does value reproductive choice - though I agree more conservative political factions in this country try to attack reproductive rights, and sadly sometimes succeed, we still offer widespread access to BC.   We discuss contraceptives in our public schools.  We hand out free condoms and fund Planned Parenthood.  There are lots of options. 

Do you realize that these (bolded) statements really aren't true in numerous parts of the country now?  I haven't looked up overall stats on nationwide views on reproductive choice but you're probably right that >50% of the US population overall believes women should have some control over their own reproduction, but that's because cities are overwhelmingly more liberal.  There are a lot of rural parts of the country where women don't have access to affordable clinics, Planned Parenthood or otherwise.  There are lots of schools that no longer teach about contraceptives.  Many people don't actually have lots of options.

And, I don't think you really understand the psychological damage that abuse does and how isolating it can be.  Maybe mx's friend was able to escape the cycle in part because she had an knowledgeable, compassionate friend like mx who has stood by her in the face of the overwhelming system.  Not everybody has access to that kind of support.

I hear this, and agree with you completely, as sad as it is.  I don't deny that there are women like mx's friend, and probably too many of them, in parts of the country where they don't have access.   And there are probably women who aren't in as unfortunate circumstances as well, but just can't get BC.  We can't ignore those women and we should do as much as we can to reach them, hard as it may be. 

But again, for a majority of women, thankfully, there are resources and access to BC, and even counseling services for DV.  

I accept mx's point not to pre-judge, and no doubt the next time I see a woman with 4+ kids I will think of her friend.  But are you really unwilling to admit that not everyone, not even the majority, not even a large minority, are in those circumstances? That's all I've been trying to say. 

[genet313]

Jan 25, 2013 11:04:00 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

Genet, you keep digging yourself into a bigger hole. How about citing some sources instead of making up numbers out of your ass?

phys.org/news/2011-05-unplanned-pregnancies-percent.html - 40% of pregnancies in the US are unplanned- - and those numbers are sky high in certain states.

According to the analysis released Thursday, the highest rates were in the South, Southwest and in states with large urban populations. Highest was Mississippi with 69 per 1,000 women ages 15-44; lowest was New Hampshire, with 36 per 1,000. "There are many, many reasons why people don't plan ahead, even when it's such a crucial decision," says Claire Brindis, director of the Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health at the University of California-San Francisco, who was not involved in the analysis. Brindis says difficulty in finding family planning services and lack of access to birth control contribute to the high numbers of unintended pregnancies.


another article- www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html -- this one says even higher-
• About half (49%) of the 6.7 million pregnancies in the United States each year (3.2 million) are unintended (see box).[6]

I can keep going.

I don't want to pick apart the "difficulty ... contributes" line, b/c that's really the crucial piece, but I know you're smart enough to see where I'm going.  



Regardless, I agree we need more BC resources and more education, particularly in certain areas of the country.  But that still doesn't magically change my mind that all unplanned pregnancies are due to lack of access.

[lurkergirl123]

I don't judge. It's none of my business.

[Deleted]

Stupid poor people, having kids and stuff.

No kids for poor people.

[genet313]

Jan 25, 2013 11:57:49 GMT -5 gravytrain225 said:

Let's not even dive into the problem of how welfare and other programs are set up to make you fail...Good luck with that short term assistance while they better themselves, genet.

Oh, gravy.  I just quit my job, and I'm sitting around packing up my office and declaring emails.  I literally have nothing but time to debate welfare and welfare reform, and I took a college seminar on the welfare state.  I would love to debate it, but I'm going to infer from your post that you're not actually serious.  

[LoveTrains]

Jan 25, 2013 12:10:42 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 25, 2013 11:57:49 GMT -5 gravytrain225 said:

Let's not even dive into the problem of how welfare and other programs are set up to make you fail...Good luck with that short term assistance while they better themselves, genet.

Oh, gravy.  I just quit my job, and I'm sitting around packing up my office and declaring emails.  I literally have nothing but time to debate welfare and welfare reform, and I took a college seminar on the welfare state.  I would love to debate it, but I'm going to infer from your post that you're not actually serious.  

Clearly this makes you an expert. 

[Deleted]

I took a college course on US Defense!! I know everything there is to know about the military! I'm s-m-r-t!

[genet313]

Jan 25, 2013 12:13:26 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

Jan 25, 2013 12:10:42 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Oh, gravy.  I just quit my job, and I'm sitting around packing up my office and declaring emails.  I literally have nothing but time to debate welfare and welfare reform, and I took a college seminar on the welfare state.  I would love to debate it, but I'm going to infer from your post that you're not actually serious.  

Clearly this makes you an expert. 

Not at all.  But the general reaction to my previous posts is to call me "sheltered" and "unaware" and that I simplify" issues because I don't understand them because I may or may not be educated on the subject.  

I took gravy's post as an attempt to bait me to discuss something she thinks she can guess my views/responses on,.  I think she'd be surprised, which is why I'm gave the context.  

[Deleted]

If you think taking one college course makes you educated about the subject, I have a bridge to sell you.

[genet313]

Jan 25, 2013 12:15:08 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I took a college course on US Defense!! I know everything there is to know about the military! I'm s-m-r-t!

Oh cosmos, I really want to like you, and have through all my lurking, but you're making it hard.  Sadness.  Is this flippancy really the way you want to attack me?  

[mollz007]

Jan 24, 2013 9:54:24 GMT -5 @mrsspunky said:

So long as the kids have a decent roof over their head, they aren't sleeping in rubbermaid tubs a la Emily $1k/mo blogger (for instance, IMO you need to have at least a 3 BR house to have 4 kids so long as you have 2 boys, 2 girls or all one gender), are well-fed and clothed, why would I? Having a lot of kids is just as much a valid choice as having one or none.

This.

[Deleted]

Oh, I can totally play this game.  I took a psychology course in college!

[genet313]

Jan 25, 2013 12:24:50 GMT -5 papiercherri said:

Oh, I can totally play this game.  I took a psychology course in college!

Ha, love her.