I strongly believe that there is a hereditary component to addiction (like a pre-existing condition) that will be turned on given the right circumstances. My Grandfather had an addictive personality, and while all he did was live hard and die young you could tell that his addictions controlled his life. (salt intake, smoking, drinking)
My brother is in the process of going through methadone treatment (1 year of clean blood tests!). I absolutely recognize that what has happened to him has been pretty much outside of his control. He hit his rock bottom and has been fighting so so hard to get clean. He tried to quit cold turkey and was terribly ill. The methadone treatment program has been a lifesaver, and while it is counter-intuitive to some people (like all rehab programs which will not accept him while he is undergoing doctor supervised treatment-, I am so glad that there is an option like this for him. He's dropped his daily dose by half and is now able to work a full work week.
I know that he will struggle with this for life now. It is a disease that he will fight against forever. There will be no remission for him. I sincerely pray that he has the strength to continue fighting.
A friend of mine just lost her girls because of her drinking. She also drank while pregnant. A couple years ago she wasn't allowed to be with her DD until she did treatment. It's been a long hard road for her.
As much as I understand her struggle with addiction, I'm also very angry with her.
Ok...so I was trying to figure out how to share a story and this line makes it make sense, to me at least.
When my mom had lung cancer she never stopped smoking. Logically I knew it was because a) the addiction was strong and b) she was terminal regardless, quitting smoking wasn't going to make a difference. But I was livid (and never said anything) because she kept talking about how she was going to survive (a coping mechanism) but never quit smoking. Emotionally I was so angry with her because even though I understood the chemical and physiological dependency that existed I wanted her love for me (for all of us) to be enough to get her to quit, just as a sign of faith and understanding of the fact that her choices had brought us all to this horrible point where we had to watch her die.
I quit smoking about 6 weeks after my mom's death (so not even I quit while she was sick - none of us did, it's sad really)...I quit because I refused to ever put my loved ones through what we went through and today I still live in fear that my 14 years of smoking might have been enough to trigger the genetic aspects of the disease. But my dad and my brothers haven't quit - my brothers have both tried, and failed (and they both have had, and one continues to have, significant pot habits, if not more significant ones).
Emotionally I felt like it was a 'if you are strong enough, determined enough, want it enough, you will quit', but I know there is more to it than that. I don't think smoking addiction is necessarily the same as drug or alcohol addiction...the addiction doesn't affect your loved ones in the same way (other than the damages of second hand smoke and the possibility that your family may need to watch you die)...but the mechanics of addiction are the same, the chemical changes that happen in the brain are real and not everyone has the same capacity to work through the steps it takes to quit. I was haunted by the images of my mother death and literally had nightmares of dying the same way...for me that was enough...apparently it wasn't for the rest of my family.
Post by roadbananas on Jul 17, 2013 6:53:08 GMT -5
I do.
We have a couple addicts in the family, as far as I know its just a couple.
I am bipolar and I am convinced (through months of thinking) that I have every ingredient to be an addict. I don't drink anymore (,never did in excess), never do drugs or smoked).
Yet its something I think of when I'm down or stressed beyond max. So I avoid drinking for that matter. I have been on medication consistently for 3 years for bipolar and depression (another reason I choose not to drink.)
I believe mental illnesses that are diagnosed like bipolar or depression go hand in hand with addiction.
And I feel personally that its a hard thing to control.
Post by karinothing on Jul 17, 2013 7:10:13 GMT -5
Yes and no. I am a former addict. At one point I decided I needed to quit. Well, basically my boss told me to quit or I would be fired and I started to get random nose bleeds so it seemed to be time. Anyway, I was able to quit cold turkey. In my case, I don't think it is a disease.
For others where it is not so easy or where they have a comorbidity with mental illness I think then it is a disease.
Yes, though I didn't always feel that way, because I'd get hung up on the "they shouldn't have started in the first place!" mentality. I've since learned it's never so black and white, and to think that way is incredibly ignorant.
People who are mentally healthy don't do heroine. They just don't.
The only people who are addicted to drugs are running from something - depression, anxiety, trauma.
I have a looooot of addiction in my family, and I'm convinced.
I am glad to find such an expert on GBCN. To think I could have saved so much money by coming here and having you diagnose me.
I don't care how much addiction you have in your family, until you have walked in my shoes girlfriend, you don't have a fucking clue about addiction. I can guarantee you I am not running from anything, I am an addict and an alcoholic and not afraid to admit it.
Even though I have a few years of recovery, the fight lives on inside of me every day and STUPID fucking statements like this enrage me.
I read her comment to say it is indeed a disease. Are you, as an addict, saying it isn't? I just don't see what she said that was so insulting/upsetting
And I also have a ridiculous # of addicts in my family. Primarily alcohol. Most are in recovery. My father pretends not to drink but after 30+ yrs one gets accustomed to the signs
That's my point though....Addicts stay addicts because their brain is telling them it's too hard to not be an addict. But there are millions of people that are proof positive that it's not *too* hard. I'm not saying it's NOT a disease. I'm just saying it's not so black and white either.
calledout, I AM angry at my brother. I'm angry that he hung out with a group of people that were doing Vicodin, and then started heroin because it was cheaper. I'm angry that this is something he will struggle with every day, because of his choices. I'm angry that me and my family have to worry about an OD or relapse, constantly. I'm angry that having already gone through a brother dying a senseless death, my family now has to worry about another.
You can be angry, but you can also try to understand. My brother was born as a preemie and given morphine. There's a huge hereditary component. To you or me, having a drink is not a big deal. It feels much, much different to an addict. Really, the only choice for an addict is to never try ANYTHING, but who grows up and thinks he or she will become an addict?
I recommend you read the book Clean if you are interested in learning more about addiction.
Thank you flex. I really appreciate that. COngrats again on being sober. I am really proud of you even if I dont "know" you:)
Both of my parents are alcoholics (as are a number of other family members) and I have often taken comfort / wisdom from flex, as well as a few others here who are familiar with this struggle.
My dad is celebrating his five-year sobriety birthday this weekend.
My mom has had periods of sobriety, but is still struggling. It breaks my heart because she's an amazing, warm, loving, highly intelligent person who is doing her best to kick alcohol out of her life.
I think the people who question addiction's legitimacy as a disease typically either don't know an addict, or are trying to navigate the really rough road of loving someone but hating what the alcohol or drugs do to them and their loved ones.
When you see someone you love behaving in ways that are self-destructive or destructive to their relationships, it's hard not to see it as deliberate or as a choice because it feels (and really can be) so very personal. Plus, the things that people say when they're drunk or high are frequently hateful and mean.
For me, the best way to come to terms with this has been to see the WHY behind my parents' addictions. They've both done some pretty awful things under the influence, but they're not awful people. Alcohol and prescription meds have taken away from them so much more than they have given and unfortunately it's not easy for an addict to recognize this and to change it.
Sometimes they do change it for a time. But these substances are sneaky motherfuckers and have a way of working their way back in.
But it's not really them. I offer my parents support and talk with them regularly about their respective battles. They're very different conversations, of course.
On a brighter note, my father has found such peace through AA. My understanding of the disease has evolved so much seeing how this has changed him over the past five years.
ETA - I don't want to come across as all zen. There was a LOT of anger (and still is a lot of tears) over this. But I've been aware of and dealing with my parents' addictions since I was 12. I have 26 years of coming to terms with it and dealing with it in my own way. Anger is a completely acceptable emotion.
I am glad to find such an expert on GBCN. To think I could have saved so much money by coming here and having you diagnose me.
I don't care how much addiction you have in your family, until you have walked in my shoes girlfriend, you don't have a fucking clue about addiction. I can guarantee you I am not running from anything, I am an addict and an alcoholic and not afraid to admit it.
Even though I have a few years of recovery, the fight lives on inside of me every day and STUPID fucking statements like this enrage me.
I read her comment to say it is indeed a disease. Are you, as an addict, saying it isn't? I just don't see what she said that was so insulting/upsetting
And I also have a ridiculous # of addicts in my family. Primarily alcohol. Most are in recovery. My father pretends not to drink but after 30+ yrs one gets accustomed to the signs
Thank you flex. I really appreciate that. COngrats again on being sober. I am really proud of you even if I dont "know" you:)
Both of my parents are alcoholics (as are a number of other family members) and I have often taken comfort / wisdom from flex, as well as a few others here who are familiar with this struggle.
My dad is celebrating his five-year sobriety birthday this weekend.
My mom has had periods of sobriety, but is still struggling. It breaks my heart because she's an amazing, warm, loving, highly intelligent person who is doing her best to kick alcohol out of her life.
I think the people who question addiction's legitimacy as a disease typically either don't know an addict, or are trying to navigate the really rough road of loving someone but hating what the alcohol or drugs do to them and their loved ones.
When you see someone you love behaving in ways that are self-destructive or destructive to their relationships, it's hard not to see it as deliberate or as a choice because it feels (and really can be) so very personal. Plus, the things that people say when they're drunk or high are frequently hateful and mean.
For me, the best way to come to terms with this has been to see the WHY behind my parents' addictions. They've both done some pretty awful things under the influence, but they're not awful people. Alcohol and prescription meds have taken away from them so much more than they have given and unfortunately it's not easy for an addict to recognize this and to change it.
Sometimes they do change it for a time. But these substances are sneaky motherfuckers and have a way of working their way back in.
But it's not really them. I offer my parents support and talk with them regularly about their respective battles. They're very different conversations, of course.
On a brighter note, my father has found such peace through AA. My understanding of the disease has evolved so much seeing how this has changed him over the past five years.
ETA - I don't want to come across as all zen. There was a LOT of anger (and still is a lot of tears) over this. But I've been aware of and dealing with my parents' addictions since I was 12. I have 26 years of coming to terms with it and dealing with it in my own way. Anger is a completely acceptable emotion.
I completely agree that people that have dealt with addicts or alchoholics in their families probably do try to make sense of it in their own way. Some of my family members absolutely believed I could just quit and be done with it. And still to this day believe it wasn't a problem. But my family likes to bury their head in the sand.
This is how I know that addiction is a powerful monster, because my Dad loved me like no other and I still wasn't enough. I should have been, we both should have been, but we weren't and I know my Dad died not knowing why either.
App 'like', except like seems like the wrong term. More like 'I get it'.
I think the point made up-thread about accepting that addiction is a disease doesn't mean you have to accept/forgive the transgressions of the addict is really important, and it's honestly a point that I don't think I heard enough as I was growing up. My mom would even throw it back at us "You need to let me be. I was only drunk for one day. This is a disease. It's hard. [Insert words that invalidate her children's feelings here]." She's still not good about truly apologizing, accepting her behavior caused pain, and making amends. Of course she didn't do AA - In her words, she wasn't a "real" alcoholic like those people.
This is really central to the issue for me. I think I don't like to call addiction a disease because, bundled up with that characterization is an implication that I'm not allowed to be supremely pissed at the laundry list of shitty things that the addicts in my life have done in the name of their "disease." If it's a "disease," than their actions while in the grips of the disease are not blame-worthy, and i should be empathetic rather than angry. After all, it would hardly be ok to be angry at a person who missed an event or lost a job b/c s/he was suffering the side-effects of chemo or was in cancer-related pain.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who had constructive input in this thread. This is an issue that is charged for me, and it's really nice to hash it out.
I think what you are describing is very fair, and very sad, and I am so sorry for your troubles. I think with a disease like cancer, it is easy to say "fuck cancer" because you can see a physical disease progression more easily. With a disease like addiction, it is a lot harder to say "fuck alcoholism" because you are really saying, to some extent, "fuck you Mom, for being drunk when I needed you." It is not the disease you are raging against, it is how the disease affects your life, your family, your world, etc.
I think your feelings are totally normal, and understandable in light of your experiences. And yes, you are allowed to be angry that a stupid bullshit disease cost you the upbringing you needed, the Mom you craved, and the life you wanted. You don't need to feel empathy about a disease that just takes, and takes, and takes.
I am sure people have suggested Al-Anon to you, but I'll do it again, it is a great resource.
You sound like a really nice person who has really tried very hard to come to heads or tails over this situation, and I wish you all the best things.
This is how I know that addiction is a powerful monster, because my Dad loved me like no other and I still wasn't enough. I should have been, we both should have been, but we weren't and I know my Dad died not knowing why either.
phdprocrastinator, I just want to give you the biggest hug ever. I am so sorry you had to go through this. I am so sorry for all of the people in this post who have had to be a casualty of this disease.
Thank you flex. I really appreciate that. COngrats again on being sober. I am really proud of you even if I dont "know" you:)
Both of my parents are alcoholics (as are a number of other family members) and I have often taken comfort / wisdom from flex, as well as a few others here who are familiar with this struggle.
My dad is celebrating his five-year sobriety birthday this weekend.
My mom has had periods of sobriety, but is still struggling. It breaks my heart because she's an amazing, warm, loving, highly intelligent person who is doing her best to kick alcohol out of her life.
I think the people who question addiction's legitimacy as a disease typically either don't know an addict, or are trying to navigate the really rough road of loving someone but hating what the alcohol or drugs do to them and their loved ones.
When you see someone you love behaving in ways that are self-destructive or destructive to their relationships, it's hard not to see it as deliberate or as a choice because it feels (and really can be) so very personal. Plus, the things that people say when they're drunk or high are frequently hateful and mean.
For me, the best way to come to terms with this has been to see the WHY behind my parents' addictions. They've both done some pretty awful things under the influence, but they're not awful people. Alcohol and prescription meds have taken away from them so much more than they have given and unfortunately it's not easy for an addict to recognize this and to change it.
Sometimes they do change it for a time. But these substances are sneaky motherfuckers and have a way of working their way back in.
But it's not really them. I offer my parents support and talk with them regularly about their respective battles. They're very different conversations, of course.
On a brighter note, my father has found such peace through AA. My understanding of the disease has evolved so much seeing how this has changed him over the past five years.
ETA - I don't want to come across as all zen. There was a LOT of anger (and still is a lot of tears) over this. But I've been aware of and dealing with my parents' addictions since I was 12. I have 26 years of coming to terms with it and dealing with it in my own way. Anger is a completely acceptable emotion.
This is the battle that I am struggling with in regards to my sister. She has hurt me, and the rest of our family, countless times and it's hard not to be angry. It's hard to feel like I'm giving her a "pass" on everything because it's a disease. Like she is not being held accountable for all of the horrible things that she has said and done. But I also know the facts and know that, at this point, she has no control. And I couldn't imagine feeling completely out of control of my own life.
I have conflicted feelings on this. When I was younger, I always wondered why my mother didn't just quit drinking. I could not understand the emotional and physical reasons she would "choose" to be a severe alcoholic. As I have gotten older, I am starting to see it truly is a disease. However, I also feel like at some point it does become a choice.
I say this because my mother has been in rehab five times. Five. Times. She has also had an out pouring of help and love from the various AA members in my family. She has had multiple doctors devote their time to advising her. She has the resources to break the addiction.
Yet, she has not. She has continued to "oh, I'll just cut back." or "oh, it is only a little." I know it is hard for many, many addicts. It truly is a downward spiral and eventually, you feel you can not live with out your addictive substance. At some point too, you lose the person to the addiction. They literally, as my mother has, stop becoming a person who lives out their life, the person you know and care for, and become a person who lives for the addiction. There is a point of no return for the persons mental and emotional health. They simply will not be the same.
It is never, ever "too late" to break an addiction. I truly believe even my mother, who I can fully mark as losing intelligence, knowledge, and personality traits to her addiction, can break her addiction still.
Like I stated earlier, addiction is a disease, but yet it at some point becomes a choice. There is a very fine line between the two and that line is often blurred.
This is of course, just my personal opinion.
Edit: I want to say, that I have had people say "cancer isn't a choice and that is a disease." They are right. Having the disease isn't a choice, but getting treatment for it is. Cancer can be fatal from the get go. Alcoholism and other addictive substances generally are not. You can refuse treatment. You can refuse help. I think at that point, yes. It does become a choice.
I will also say Al-Anon helps a lot. Please, if you have a family, friend, or loved one that struggles, find support for yourself as well. It will help you through the hard emotions you will be going through.
calledout, I AM angry at my brother. I'm angry that he hung out with a group of people that were doing Vicodin, and then started heroin because it was cheaper. I'm angry that this is something he will struggle with every day, because of his choices. I'm angry that me and my family have to worry about an OD or relapse, constantly. I'm angry that having already gone through a brother dying a senseless death, my family now has to worry about another.
You can be angry, but you can also try to understand. My brother was born as a preemie and given morphine. There's a huge hereditary component. To you or me, having a drink is not a big deal. It feels much, much different to an addict. Really, the only choice for an addict is to never try ANYTHING, but who grows up and thinks he or she will become an addict?
I recommend you read the book Clean if you are interested in learning more about addiction.
I get what you are saying here but I just want to provide another perspective. My dad is a raging alcoholic and a selfish, mean, violent person. It is kind of a chicken and the egg scenario where he has always kind of been like that and the alcoholism (and mental illness issues) don't help. I will never understand why he thinks his behavior is acceptable alcoholic or not. Honestly, this sounds terrible but I have given up on him getting sober a long time ago and I have (or I am at least trying to) forgiven a lot for my own sake. It is easier for me to not be angry because that hurts me not him. I guess what I am trying to say is I understand and truly believe that addiction is a disease but I will never understand the behavior that is in many cases unforgivable.
Also, I know that I could use some help for the anger I still have and in some ways I have dealt with a lot of it and in other ways I am not ready to face other pieces of it.
For those of you struggling with the anger and the other "fun" emotions that go with being a child, sibling, parent, family member or friend of an alcoholic, I highly suggest you look into Al-Anon or Adult Children of Alcoholics (if you haven't already). It may help you come to terms with the very human and understandable negative emotions that comes when you see someone you love slowly killing themselves with drugs and/or alcohol. It's so scary and frustrating. ((((hugs))))
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
I grew up around addiction and we are now facing it on T's side as well, alcohol and drugs, and it is absolutely a disease. It's also a disease that hits everyone around that person just as hard, if not harder.
My older brother is 13 years older than me, he started smoking when he was 14, probably drinking as well, things escalated from there. He went on to harder drugs, dropped out of high school, started stealing from family members and pawning the stuff for money. My parents kicked him out when he was 16 or so, my grandfather took him in, and then kicked him out for stealing. Several family member refused to talk to him for years. He's still an alcoholic, but was able to slowly remove the drugs from his problem. Unfortunately he doesn't think that his drinking is an issue and that everyone else is just talking out of their ass. He's been divorced, and is now single and nearing 40 and miserable. Has a great business and a great reputation for the work he does, but his home life is sad and therefore he drinks. It's rationalized in his mind.
I love my brother to death, but no amount of conversation or convincing has made him stop or limit drinking. He is the reason that I very rarely ever drink. Most years I can count the number of drinks I have had on one hand.
But as many others here have said it's so hard to not be angry with the addict when you see the damage that they have caused to themselves and to YOU. I am working very hard to forgive my father (alcoholic) and mother (massive enabler) because I do realize that they suffer from their own experiences growing up and the addiction that I believe comes from the trauma of not dealing with the issues. They say a lot of times that an addict stops 'maturing' emotionally at the age the the addiction really starts. So for my dad, he still emotionally acts like a 16 yo with his temper tantrums and anger and general overall control issues. I feel bad for him but I also feel so fucking angry. I have been to Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings and they do help. I need to go back.