It would really really piss me off. It is Ms. in a professional setting.
edit: actually, as you are an attorney it should be Susie Derkins, Esq. I would be offended just on that basis and in the salutation it should say Dear Attorney Derkins.
I asked Calvin what he would use in a similar situation, and that's what he said he uses universally.
I sort of lol at the pretense of it, but at least it's the same for everyone. I think it's more common among attorneys who spend a lot of time in court, which he does (and I don't).
It would really really piss me off. It is Ms. in a professional setting.
edit: actually, as you are an attorney it should be Susie Derkins, Esq. I would be offended just on that basis and in the salutation it should say Dear Attorney Derkins.
I asked Calvin what he would use in a similar situation, and that's what he said he uses universally.
I sort of lol at the pretense of it, but at least it's the same for everyone. I think it's more common among attorneys who spend a lot of time in court, which he does (and I don't).
If you know the person though the salutation can be Dear Susie. Mr. and Mrs/Ms. should never really be used in correspondence w/ attorneys- at least that's what I learned in the stone age when I started practicing. But I can also remember a trial court prof (a judge) telling us to refer to other lawyers in court as my brother /sister at the bar.
I think that Mrs. continues to be used at all is weird (why is it necessary for a title to call out a woman's marital status? Ever? When titles for men never do this?). But I've been accused of being radical about this issue, so...
I've never heard or seen a female attorney addressed as Mrs. It is Ms. or more appropriately counselor or Attorney Derkins in a court setting.
why do they do it on TV if it's not true?
I have always taken it to mean that the show is emphasizing the fact even though she has her own professional accomplishments, she's still viewed as the wife of Peter Florrick. I have always taken it to be an intentional decision on the part of the writers of the show to remind us of that fact. Most women lawyers aren't referred to as "Mrs." and she is. Given that the show has a slight feminist slant to it, I don't think the writers would have mixed up something like that.
I have never been called Mrs. in a professional setting, and would think it weird if I was.
I think that Mrs. continues to be used at all is weird (why is it necessary for a title to call out a woman's marital status? Ever? When titles for men never do this?). But I've been accused of being radical about this issue, so...
So have I. Back in the day when there was no caller ID and no no call lists freaking telemarketers *always* referred to me as Mrs. (when I wasn't, not that that matters). I asked one guy if he knew more about my marital status than I did.
Post by barefootcontessa on Apr 22, 2014 13:37:47 GMT -5
It sounds like he wrote Mrs. Susie Derkins. I also thought this is how you address a divorced woman. As a married woman you should be addressed as Mrs. Calvin Derkins (if using the Mrs.), which of course would be ridiculous in a work context. This leads me to the conclusion that you should be addressed Ms. Susie Derkins.
Being called "Mrs." in a professional context is probably my biggest pet peeve. Ms. is a professional designation for a woman; Mrs. is a social form of address that is not appropriate in the workplace.
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't it possible that his secretary or paralegal typed the letter?
IMO, that would make it even worse, because I would presume the paralegal or secretary has no idea about Susie's marital status and the last name of her partner.
It sounds like he wrote Mrs. Susie Derkins. I also thought this is how you address a divorced woman. As a married woman you should be addressed as Mrs. Calvin Derkins (if using the Mrs.), which of course would be ridiculous in a work context. This leads me to the conclusion that you should be addressed Ms. Susie Derkins.
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't it possible that his secretary or paralegal typed the letter?
IMO, that would make it even worse, because I would presume the paralegal or secretary has no idea about Susie's marital status and the last name of her partner.
Yeah, definitely, but at least it's not Susie's colleague who's being weird but another person instead...
IMO, that would make it even worse, because I would presume the paralegal or secretary has no idea about Susie's marital status and the last name of her partner.
Yeah, definitely, but at least it's not Susie's colleague who's being weird but another person instead...
I guess. If my secretary did this and I saw it, I'd be pissed.
I also think it's patronizing, similar to addressing "ladies" in an email or referring the "that girl who works in accounting."
I also go by Ms., but I also have a different last name than my husband.
And behind this relative calm exterior is a fairly hardcore feminist about many issues, including self-selected names and titles, so take that for what its worth.
Yeah, definitely, but at least it's not Susie's colleague who's being weird but another person instead...
I guess. If my secretary did this and I saw it, I'd be pissed.
Actually - this is how small our world is - his legal assistant had been a long term employee of our firm until about 1.5 year ago. In this very specific circumstance I can all but guarantee the "Mrs." didn't come from her.
It would bother me for sure. But I'm prickly about proper titles--especially when students call me Mrs. (or Ms.) when I always refer to myself as Prof. or Dr. Smock.
And I've yet to receive a single properly addressed formal invitation because apparently no one knows what to do if the wife has a doctorate but the husband does not.
What's the standard practice in these types of communications? Do you refer to someone with title and last name typically, or do you use first name? If you usually use first name, I would think this was weird. If you usually refer to title and last name, I don't think this is weird, especially since he knows you personally. I typically use Ms. unless I know someone prefers Mrs., but I don't think it's incorrect to use Mrs. since you are, in fact, married.
Although, actually -- aren't you technically Dr. Derkins since you have a JD? Or do lawyers not use the Dr. title?
I work in education and plenty of people introduce themselves as mrs. Last name. I know many of my older coworkers prefer mrs. and will correct you if you say Ms. I tend to default to ms. but only because it's the easiest thing to do.
What's the standard practice in these types of communications? Do you refer to someone with title and last name typically, or do you use first name? If you usually use first name, I would think this was weird. If you usually refer to title and last name, I don't think this is weird, especially since he knows you personally. I typically use Ms. unless I know someone prefers Mrs., but I don't think it's incorrect to use Mrs. since you are, in fact, married.
Although, actually -- aren't you technically Dr. Derkins since you have a JD? Or do lawyers not use the Dr. title?
Lawyers do not use the Dr. title, no.
Yeah, after I thought about it a little bit, I realized none of the lawyers I know use the Dr. title.
I think it's weird. I don't think Mrs. should ever be used to address attorneys in a professional setting. I could count on one hand the number of times I have been addressed that way in 10 years of practicing law.
Incredibly, and I'd think it was incredibly weird and possibly dismissive. Ms. is the only acceptable title to me, in a legal/professional context at least.
I don't know, maybe this is a regional type thing? I tend to address correspondence to other attorneys as "Dear Mr./Ms. Lastname" but I receive a great deal of correspondence that is just "Dear Firstname:"
We frequently address emails to opposing counsel as "Counsel" or "Firstname." Formal letters, however, are always "Dear Mr./Ms. Lastname."
Counsel or Firstname when addressing each other (when dealing with the government I've at times gotten "Attorney Lastname," but I've never used that and find it uncommon in my practice); Mr./Ms. when discussing the other to a judge/tribunal (Like, I'd call you Jane to your face, but would say "Your honor, I object to Ms. Doe's characterization of..." As a fairly young female attorney, I deliberately avoid calling opposing counsel -- particularly older male opposing counsel -- "Mr."/Ms. when addressing them directly. They get the form of address I use with my peers, not the one I use with my superiors.
I also think it's patronizing, similar to addressing "ladies" in an email or referring the "that girl who works in accounting."
I also go by Ms., but I also have a different last name than my husband.
And behind this relative calm exterior is a fairly hardcore feminist about many issues, including self-selected names and titles, so take that for what its worth.
When H and I got married, USAA just started calling me Mrs. His LN. I politely corrected them once and asked them to note it, and the next time demanded a manager and it must now be in like flashing red letters because they never mess it up now and all my CCs say MS on them with my name.
USAA made my shit list when they kept sending all our mortgage and realtor documents to Spc. H's full name. My name was nowhere. Forget my income was the one buying that home and it was being bought in trust name.
I just read the other responses in this thread. I am really surprised some people think Mrs. Is appropriate in this context. This is very clearly not okay in my book. I would expect anyone practice law to know that. Though the guy did use esq., so...
It bothers me that some people don't see the issue here, but even more so that others think it's OK because he was "trying to be respectful" (LOL). Yay, feminism?
It bothers me that some people don't see the issue here, but even more so that others think it's OK because he was "trying to be respectful" (LOL). Yay, feminism?
Yes, I am really struggling to understand how this was a sign of respect. Because Ms. would have implied that he thought Susie was too busy practicing law to land a husband?
Post by MixedBerryJam on Apr 22, 2014 16:32:37 GMT -5
Can I just mention that it's "Calvin and me" in both contexts in your op. I agree though that the Mrs. honorific in a work environment can be just a wee bit patronizing. I would be minimally, but greater than zero, bugged.
if I learned anything from the hit CBS series 'The Good Wife' it's that attorneys refer to each other as Mrs/Mr.
But that's just it - unless a preference has been expressed, Ms. is the default in the legal field. At least IME. I had a few depositions where the deponent, usually a woman over 55, preferred Mrs. X, but Ms. was standard.
I was NEVER referred to as Mrs.Asshole by opposing counsel, judges, or court staff. Always always always Ms.Asshole.