Post by delawarejen on Apr 23, 2014 18:04:51 GMT -5
Re: Mrs. being used in education - Education is also the only field where I've run into people being addressed as Miss Last Name in a business setting. Ms. seems to have replaced Miss for unmarried women nearly everywhere else.
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
Re: Mrs. being used in education - Education is also the only field where I've run into people being addressed as Miss Last Name in a business setting. Ms. seems to have replaced Miss for unmarried women nearly everywhere else.
Do people outside of the South pronounce Ms. with a "z" sound? Because around here it seems like "Ms." is pronounced pretty much the same as "Miss." Or else all these grown women are being called "Miss" and I'm giving the speakers too much credit.
Re: Mrs. being used in education - Education is also the only field where I've run into people being addressed as Miss Last Name in a business setting. Ms. seems to have replaced Miss for unmarried women nearly everywhere else.
Do people outside of the South pronounce Ms. with a "z" sound? Because around here it seems like "Ms." is pronounced pretty much the same as "Miss." Or else all these grown women are being called "Miss" and I'm giving the speakers too much credit.
I can't speak for everywhere outside of the south, but in the mid-Atlantic Ms. and Miss do sound different. Ms. has a definite "z" sound.
Post by DirtySouth on Apr 23, 2014 20:07:00 GMT -5
Maybe this is a southern law practice thing, but I find it super weird that he knows you personally and didn't address you by your first name. In the Atlanta legal community (and maybe it's specific to my practice area), even a formal letter about a case would be addressed "Dear Susie" if opposing counsel has met you. It's especially weird to me that he went to law school with you, worked with you, and would address the letter to Ms. Or Mrs. Derkins.
Maybe this is a southern law practice thing, but I find it super weird that he knows you personally and didn't address you by your first name. In the Atlanta legal community (and maybe it's specific to my practice area), even a formal letter about a case would be addressed "Dear Susie" if opposing counsel has met you. It's especially weird to me that he went to law school with you, worked with you, and would address the letter to Ms. Or Mrs. Derkins.
Sent from my HTC One mini
Same in New York, though typically when talking about opposing counsel or a colleague to, say, a judge or tribunal, or on a transcript, you'd use Ms./Mr. to show that you're treating them with respect. But when addressing them directly they're John/Jane.
But the legends, like an Herb Wachtell, would probably draw a Mr. from most even if they know them.
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
I'm 2 months from 35, so no. Also, I kept my maiden name so Mrs is never correct for me. This isn't a generational thing.
Maybe this is a southern law practice thing, but I find it super weird that he knows you personally and didn't address you by your first name. In the Atlanta legal community (and maybe it's specific to my practice area), even a formal letter about a case would be addressed "Dear Susie" if opposing counsel has met you. It's especially weird to me that he went to law school with you, worked with you, and would address the letter to Ms. Or Mrs. Derkins.
Sent from my HTC One mini
Same in New York, though typically when talking about opposing counsel or a colleague to, say, a judge or tribunal, or on a transcript, you'd use Ms./Mr. to show that you're treating them with respect. But when addressing them directly they're John/Jane.
But the legends, like an Herb Wachtell, would probably draw a Mr. from most even if they know them.
I don't think I have ever been called "Mrs Last Name" in any setting.
My old boss (female) was sometimes referred to as Mrs Last Name but she introduced herself on the phone as that, or as her (formal, old-fashioned first name). She could always tell if opposing counsel was calling or someone she didnt know bc they used her first name. Friends and clients used her nickname, which was a play on her middle name (so hard to figure out).
The only people I ran into who used the "Attorney Last Name" were from Boston/New England, so I think that is definitely a regional thing.
Anyway, I think this is somethign that most people should know (whether or not to use "Mrs" in a certain setting) because you can usually figure out from your overall context - do you hear other people use it, and so on. I don't know if I would be offended by it per se, but I would notice it and think it was odd.
Post by blueshirt2003 on Apr 24, 2014 8:37:38 GMT -5
I honestly don't get it. I've never heard this before. I've always been taught Ms. Sally Smith is someone who isn't married. Mrs. Sally Smith is someone who is married.
I honestly don't get it. I've never heard this before. I've always been taught Ms. Sally Smith is someone who isn't married. Mrs. Sally Smith is someone who is married.
Why is this offensive?
That is not true. Ms is the female version of mr. It has nothing to do with marital status.
I wonder that too. And I wonder if all us lawyers are about this because it is such a historically male-dominated field and a lot of female attorneys have had to fight hard to be taken as seriously as their male counterparts -- so we may be more sensitive about mixing our marital status into the professional realm than others.
I think continuing use of Mrs. in education probably does stem in part from the fact that it is a historically female field, but I think a lot of the lawyer outrage has to do with the fact that lawyers tend to place a lot of importance on word choice. We assume that every word should be thoughtfully chosen to convey the correct meaning. I would bet for that reason that female engineers are less sensitive to this issue, despite also working in a historically male-dominated field. Words are not their focus to the same degree.
Female engineer here. I feel very strongly that it is not appropriate to address me as Mrs. in a professional setting. Part of that is becasue I have a PhD and work at a university (so Professor is the most correct if you don't know me, or Dr), but part is how hard I've had to work to be respected as a minority (gender-wise) in my field. I actually have no problem being called by my first name, even by students, as long as they're also calling their male professors by their first names.
I honestly don't get it. I've never heard this before. I've always been taught Ms. Sally Smith is someone who isn't married. Mrs. Sally Smith is someone who is married.
Why is this offensive?
That is not true. Ms is the female version of mr. It has nothing to do with marital status.
My mind is blown. I've been taught wrong my entire life. I don't get why I was taught this then. Is this a Texas thing? I'm born and raised a Texan.
Does it bother anyone else that we still have Miss and Mrs? Men only have Mr, why does martial status matter for women if it doesn't for men. That being said, I find Ms is difficult to say.
Does it bother anyone else that we still have Miss and Mrs? Men only have Mr, why does martial status matter for women if it doesn't for men. That being said, I find Ms is difficult to say.
I honestly don't get it. I've never heard this before. I've always been taught Ms. Sally Smith is someone who isn't married. Mrs. Sally Smith is someone who is married.
Why is this offensive?
How would you know if someone is married in a professional setting? You don't think it is slightly offensive to be inquiring as to the marital status of female professionals in order to do this this way?
That is not true. Ms is the female version of mr. It has nothing to do with marital status.
My mind is blown. I've been taught wrong my entire life. I don't get why I was taught this then. Is this a Texas thing? I'm born and raised a Texan.
Not a Texas thing. I lived in TX (and practiced law there) for 10 years, all of them while married, and I was referred to as Mrs. in a professional setting maybe twice over the course of a decade. My BFF was born and raised in Houston and had *very* strong feelings about Mrs./Ms. from the time I first met her when we were freshmen in college. I grew up in Oklahoma, which tends to be culturally similar to Texas, and I was taught to default to Ms. for all grown women in high school.
Uhm... You may not like it, but it is the standard address for a married female person. I disagree that it isn't appropriate in work places. If you don't know, then Ms. is the default, but he knows, so the correct way to address is Mrs. When I worked, that level of formality was seldom used, but in cases where it is used there is nothing wrong with using it correctly given the information you have.
In social situations Mrs. may be the standard address but it isn't the default in professional situations. Ms. is always the default unless you have been told specifically to use Mrs.
For example, in the CRM I manage for work we have only 185 women with the Mrs. designation and more than 5000 with Ms. designation. That should tell you something about which is more prevalent in the work place.
And personally, I would be more than a little peeved if someone addressed something to me professionally as Mrs. Nomad just because they knew I was married. Mainly because I kept my maiden name and Mrs. Nomad would be my mother. I am Ms. Nomad.
Wouldn't Mrs offend your mother? I'm not being an ass, that's a real question.
All the teachers at my kid's schools have their names Mrs if they're married and Ms if they're single.
So, I'm not computing...
?
If after reading the previous 5 pages of this thread you're still not able to figure out the issue, then there's nothing anyone can say that will clear it up for you.
All the teachers at my kid's schools have their names Mrs if they're married and Ms if they're single.
So, I'm not computing...
?
Well, as others have mentioned in this thread, schools tend to be one of the few places where Mrs. is still used in a professional setting, so if that is the only example of a workplace you are taking into account, then I can see why you might be confused. Do the married women at your place of employment or your H's place of employment go by Mrs.?
What about married women who don't take their H's names? Were you taught to use Mrs. for them to? Because that is just flat out incorrect.
In social situations Mrs. may be the standard address but it isn't the default in professional situations. Ms. is always the default unless you have been told specifically to use Mrs.
For example, in the CRM I manage for work we have only 185 women with the Mrs. designation and more than 5000 with Ms. designation. That should tell you something about which is more prevalent in the work place.
And personally, I would be more than a little peeved if someone addressed something to me professionally as Mrs. Nomad just because they knew I was married. Mainly because I kept my maiden name and Mrs. Nomad would be my mother. I am Ms. Nomad.
Wouldn't Mrs offend your mother? I'm not being an ass, that's a real question.
Perhaps I am being dense, but don't understand the question at all. Are you suggesting that Mrs. is "correct" because there are some women who aren't offended by it?
I honestly don't get it. I've never heard this before. I've always been taught Ms. Sally Smith is someone who isn't married. Mrs. Sally Smith is someone who is married.
Why is this offensive?
How would you know if someone is married in a professional setting? You don't think it is slightly offensive to be inquiring as to the marital status of female professionals in order to do this this way?
How would you know if someone is married in a professional setting? You don't think it is slightly offensive to be inquiring as to the marital status of female professionals in order to do this this way?
I would have put Ms. If I didn't know.
What would you put if Sally Smith married Robert Brown but didn't change her name?
Post by blueshirt2003 on Apr 24, 2014 13:52:37 GMT -5
No, I agree that you don't have to use Mrs to signify that you're married. That makes sense. I never realized people were offended by using Mrs in a professional (non law job). I had never even heard of this before. So, sure, I'm initially dumfounded at first. This is something new that I have learned. And, yes, I was taught to always address someone as Ms if you don't know their marital status and Mrs if you do. I never realized people would correct someone to have them say Ms.
In social situations Mrs. may be the standard address but it isn't the default in professional situations. Ms. is always the default unless you have been told specifically to use Mrs.
For example, in the CRM I manage for work we have only 185 women with the Mrs. designation and more than 5000 with Ms. designation. That should tell you something about which is more prevalent in the work place.
And personally, I would be more than a little peeved if someone addressed something to me professionally as Mrs. Nomad just because they knew I was married. Mainly because I kept my maiden name and Mrs. Nomad would be my mother. I am Ms. Nomad.
Wouldn't Mrs offend your mother? I'm not being an ass, that's a real question.
Um no. But she died in 2002 and was born in 1925. There are probably a whole lot of things that she would be horrified by today (gay marriage) that our society generally accepts as progress of humanity and equality.