I have always taken it to mean that the show is emphasizing the fact even though she has her own professional accomplishments, she's still viewed as the wife of Peter Florrick. I have always taken it to be an intentional decision on the part of the writers of the show to remind us of that fact. Most women lawyers aren't referred to as "Mrs." and she is. Given that the show has a slight feminist slant to it, I don't think the writers would have mixed up something like that.
I have never been called Mrs. in a professional setting, and would think it weird if I was.
::haven't read past here::
There's also the small possibility that it's a personal preference. Back in 2008, I emailed the New York Times (SHUT UP!) to see why they referred to "Ms. Palin" but "Mrs. Clinton." Turns out it was the preference of each woman.
LOL: autocorrect tried to change "Palin" to "Plain."
When H and I got married, USAA just started calling me Mrs. His LN. I politely corrected them once and asked them to note it, and the next time demanded a manager and it must now be in like flashing red letters because they never mess it up now and all my CCs say MS on them with my name.
USAA made my shit list when they kept sending all our mortgage and realtor documents to Spc. H's full name. My name was nowhere. Forget my income was the one buying that home and it was being bought in trust name.
They ALWAYS refer to me as Mrs. Asshole, which drives me batty because THEY CAN SEE THAT MY HUSBAND HAS A DIFFERENT NAME!!!
But it's not like I'm going to leave them. That would be crazy.
I have always taken it to mean that the show is emphasizing the fact even though she has her own professional accomplishments, she's still viewed as the wife of Peter Florrick. Â Â I have always taken it to be an intentional decision on the part of the writers of the show to remind us of that fact. Â Most women lawyers aren't referred to as "Mrs." and she is. Â Given that the show has a slight feminist slant to it, I don't think the writers would have mixed up something like that.
I have never been called Mrs. in a professional setting, and would think it weird if I was. Â
::haven't read past here::
There's also the small possibility that it's a personal preference. Back in 2008, I emailed the New York Times (SHUT UP!) to see why they referred to "Ms. Palin" but "Mrs. Clinton." Turns out it was the preference of each woman.Â
LOL: autocorrect tried to change "Palin" to "Plain."
I love that you emailed the NYT about this and find the response fascinating. I would bet money that HRC (or, rather, HRC's PR people) decided to go with Mrs. at least in part in an effort to play down the perception of Hillary as a liberal feminist.
I'm just glad when professional contacts realize I'm female... I've had a lot of emails addressed to Mr. Audette... Enough of them that I usually have to work in the fact I'm female if I'm going to be meeting people face to face, so it doesn't surprise them. I'm just in a field that is so overwhelmingly male that the general assumption is that people you interact with are male - if you don't know, you make that assumption. And it's a global business, so even though my personal name is recognizably female to folks from north America and some of Europe, areas outside of that might not have the context to know.
I honestly don't much care if I am called Ms. surname or Mrs. surname, either professionally or personally. Not my hill to die on. I do care if people dismiss me because I'm female, but I don't think that is inherently tied up in the form of address used.
Socially, I'm called Mrs. surname all the time. Sometimes, I'm called Mrs. DH's firstname surname, which is kinda archaic at this point, but ah well... We get some things addressed to DH's rank and Mrs. DH's firstname surname, which is less weird to me than something being addressed only to me as Mrs. DH's name...
There's also the small possibility that it's a personal preference. Back in 2008, I emailed the New York Times (SHUT UP!) to see why they referred to "Ms. Palin" but "Mrs. Clinton." Turns out it was the preference of each woman.Â
LOL: autocorrect tried to change "Palin" to "Plain."
I love that you emailed the NYT about this and find the response fascinating. I would bet money that HRC (or, rather, HRC's PR people) decided to go with Mrs. at least in part in an effort to play down the perception of Hillary as a liberal feminist.
I was super polite in my emails. All, "I assume it's the preference of each woman..."
An NYT editor responded to me and said that yes, it was subject preference. If it's not possible to find out a preference, the Times defaults to Ms. But when possible, they attempt to obtain a preference from the subject. The editor pointed out to me that Condoleezza Rice prefers "Ms. Rice" to "Dr. Rice" despite holding a Ph.D.
I have always taken it to mean that the show is emphasizing the fact even though she has her own professional accomplishments, she's still viewed as the wife of Peter Florrick. I have always taken it to be an intentional decision on the part of the writers of the show to remind us of that fact. Most women lawyers aren't referred to as "Mrs." and she is. Given that the show has a slight feminist slant to it, I don't think the writers would have mixed up something like that.
I have never been called Mrs. in a professional setting, and would think it weird if I was.
::haven't read past here::
There's also the small possibility that it's a personal preference. Back in 2008, I emailed the New York Times (SHUT UP!) to see why they referred to "Ms. Palin" but "Mrs. Clinton." Turns out it was the preference of each woman.
LOL: autocorrect tried to change "Palin" to "Plain."
I have thought about this more, particularly in the context of a recent episode, and I think it could also be an HRC thing -- that she goes by it as personal preference because she has to, as the wife of a political star, who is trying to use him like he uses her.
I wonder if the show will ever discuss this. It's something I've noticed from the very beginning.
This is not something I care about at all. I don't think it's weird.
I honestly never knew calling someone Mrs last name was rude.
Unless there is a past history with someone I would assume they're not an asshole and trying to be polite/professional. It's not like he addressed you "hey shithead" or something absurd.
Yeah I definitely didn't know it was "omg you're so patronizing and horrible" to call someone Mrs. I don't think we ever learned that in school.
There are places to learn social norms outside of school. Â
Yes obviously I know you learn social norms outside of school. I mentioned school though because I specifically remember our seminars on resume and cover letter writing and expressing interest in jobs. I distinctly remember learning that you should address professional correspondence as Mr if you knew it was male, Mrs if you knew it was a married female and Ms if you were unsure or single female. I really never knew it was rude. I've gotten addressed as Mrs in professional context in school and in the working world.
You took his last name. You're a Mrs whether it's professional or social.
Chill.
ETA: Not a lawyer.
Wow, someone is really out of touch with professional norms in the 21st century.
Eh, the protocol books I have indicate using Mrs. for married women. I don't think it's horrendously out of touch. Dated, maybe. Offensive, not on it's own.
Then again, the protocol books I own also tell me what weight and size of paper should be used for my calling cards. So take my input for what it's worth...
There are places to learn social norms outside of school.
Yes obviously I know you learn social norms outside of school. I mentioned school though because I specifically remember our seminars on resume and cover letter writing and expressing interest in jobs. I distinctly remember learning that you should address professional correspondence as Mr if you knew it was male, Mrs if you knew it was a married female and Ms if you were unsure or single female. I really never knew it was rude. I've gotten addressed as Mrs in professional context in school and in the working world.
Post by lasagnasshole on Apr 23, 2014 10:11:43 GMT -5
Even if you learned that Mrs. is appropriate in professional settings, it's weird for someone to come in after 3 pages of professionals, including a lot of lawyers, and telling yhe OP to chill.
I love that you emailed the NYT about this and find the response fascinating. I would bet money that HRC (or, rather, HRC's PR people) decided to go with Mrs. at least in part in an effort to play down the perception of Hillary as a liberal feminist.
I was super polite in my emails. All, "I assume it's the preference of each woman..."
An NYT editor responded to me and said that yes, it was subject preference. If it's not possible to find out a preference, the Times defaults to Ms. But when possible, they attempt to obtain a preference from the subject. The editor pointed out to me that Condoleezza Rice prefers "Ms. Rice" to "Dr. Rice" despite holding a Ph.D.
#themoreyouknow
That surprises me, actually, since most newspapers have their own style book (in addition to the AP style book). That would address naming and titles conventions. For example, my stepfather likes to go by Dr. socially. He is not an MD, so the local newspaper is pretty much like, "Uh, no," and they address him as Mr. (in articles, not correspondence).
Like I said before, I will absolutely use the title a person chooses. Personally, I would default to Ms. if I didn't know the person's preferred title because 1) most women my age seem to prefer it, 2) it seems more professional and 3) technically Ms. is a correct title for any woman. But tell me you want to go by Mr., Mrs., etc, and that's cool too! Just because someone changes their last name does not mean they need to go by Mrs., and that's their right.
Yeah, that's the thing: Marrying someone doesn't mean you're "Mrs." whether or not you like it. A married woman can still be autonomous and choose how she is addressed. It is presumptuous to use "Mrs." simply because you know the addressee is married.
I was super polite in my emails. All, "I assume it's the preference of each woman..."
An NYT editor responded to me and said that yes, it was subject preference. If it's not possible to find out a preference, the Times defaults to Ms. But when possible, they attempt to obtain a preference from the subject. The editor pointed out to me that Condoleezza Rice prefers "Ms. Rice" to "Dr. Rice" despite holding a Ph.D.
#themoreyouknow
That surprises me, actually, since most newspapers have their own style book (in addition to the AP style book). That would address naming and titles conventions. For example, my stepfather likes to go by Dr. socially. He is not an MD, so the local newspaper is pretty much like, "Uh, no," and they address him as Mr. (in articles, not correspondence).
Like I said before, I will absolutely use the title a person chooses. Personally, I would default to Ms. if I didn't know the person's preferred title because 1) most women my age seem to prefer it, 2) it seems more professional and 3) technically Ms. is a correct title for any woman. But tell me you want to go by Mr., Mrs., etc, and that's cool too! Just because someone changes their last name does not mean they need to go by Mrs., and that's their right.
I'm guessing the publications will honor a title "downshift," if you will, but not the other way around. So a Ph.D. or MD who requests she's referred to as "Mrs." will be honored, but not the inverse. Maybe?
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
If we're going to assign it to a certain group, I'd say it's a feminism thing. The teacher who taught us the "rules" in the early '90s was about 50 at the time, so let's say she's 70ish now. She was married and took her husband's name, but preferred the title "Ms." I think someone asked why she didn't go by "Mrs.," and she explained the meaning of the different titles, and that generally "Ms." is preferred if you do not know what a woman prefers.
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
I don't think it is a millennial thing. I am almost 37, and I have preferred Ms. since I got married at 24. Ms. has been the feminist preference since the 70s, hence the name of the magazine. I do think the level of professional acceptability varies by industry, though.
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
?? That makes you 3 years older than me. Pretty sure that's not it.
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
I will be 35 in three months and my view (the opposite of yours) is very common among my same-age peers.
I think schools are one of the very, very few places where "Mrs." is still seen as appropriate professionally.
Marital status has NOTHING to do with work. NOTHING.
I had NO idea that some women don't like to use Mrs. or that it could be unprofessional. Maybe because I am 35 (is it a millennial thing?) or because I always worked in schools, but I address anyone I know is married. I only use Ms. if I am unsure of marital status.
I'm GenX and I have never been addressed as either Miss Daydreamer or Mrs. Daydreamer in a professional setting (nor have I used either of those forms of address except socially since high school). Perhaps it's regional? We were definitely taught to default to Mr. and Ms. unless informed otherwise.
Post by LoveTrains on Apr 23, 2014 12:19:19 GMT -5
Meh, I work at a school. Some kids call me Ms and some call me Mrs. I don't really care. I actually use Mrs. when introducing myself to students.
I also go by Miss First Name with really little kids.
ETA: It seems to me that for some reason schools have continued the use of Mrs. in the professional world. I wonder if this says anything larger about our society's value for teachers? (or lack thereof?) Or because it was traditionally an appropriate female field? I don't know, just mid-afternoon musings.
I think there is a regional aspect in that use of Mrs. is even less prevalent in some regions than in others, but Ms. seems to be the professional default pretty much everywhere. I have lived in the South, the Midwest, the Mid-Atlantic, and the North East, and Ms. has been in use in all those places (and I have known plenty of women in all those regions who dislike or take offense to Mrs.).
It is totally fine to prefer Mrs. for yourself or to just not give a damn, and I am not surprised at all to find that is the case for many posters here. I am, however, kind of surprised to hear people say that they were entirely unaware that this was even an issue. The Mrs./Ms. controversy was a big deal during the feminist movement in the 70s and thus has some historical relevance; it is not just some issue that some internet millenials made up. Region and age shouldn't really matter unless you are older than Gloria Steinem (so the 80s+ crowd gets a pass) or you weren't raised and educated in the US (I have no idea how this issue is treated in other English speaking countries).
To me it's weird. I can't imagine writing a letter to female opposing counsel and using "Mrs." unless I was specifically told to do so. I get weirded out when people, in general, call me a "Mrs." I also refer to all of my daughters' female teachers as "Ms." and even when I hear other people refer to their teachers as "Mrs." (other school staff for example), I have a hard time breaking myself of the "Ms." Sometimes a colleague of mine refers to me as "Mrs. LAST NAME" but it's usually to be silly.
I think there is a regional aspect in that use of Mrs. is even less prevalent in some regions than in others, but Ms. seems to be the professional default pretty much everywhere. I have lived in the South, the Midwest, the Mid-Atlantic, and the North East, and Ms. has been in use in all those places (and I have known plenty of women in all those regions who dislike or take offense to Mrs.).
It is totally fine to prefer Mrs. for yourself or to just not give a damn, and I am not surprised at all to find that is the case for many posters here. I am, however, kind of surprised to hear people say that they were entirely unaware that this was even an issue. The Mrs./Ms. controversy was a big deal during the feminist movement in the 70s and thus has some historical relevance; it is not just some issue that some internet millenials made up. Region and age shouldn't really matter unless you are older than Gloria Steinem (so the 80s+ crowd gets a pass) or you weren't raised and educated in the US (I have no idea how this issue is treated in other English speaking countries).
I feel like even if this is something you weren't taught, it seems like... common sense? To not mix someone's personal life with their professional life or make assumptions about their personal life in a business setting?
ETA: It seems to me that for some reason schools have continued the use of Mrs. in the professional world. I wonder if this says anything larger about our society's value for teachers? (or lack thereof?) Or because it was traditionally an appropriate female field? I don't know, just mid-afternoon musings.
I wonder that too. And I wonder if all us lawyers are about this because it is such a historically male-dominated field and a lot of female attorneys have had to fight hard to be taken as seriously as their male counterparts -- so we may be more sensitive about mixing our marital status into the professional realm than others.
Meh, I work at a school. Some kids call me Ms and some call me Mrs. I don't really care. I actually use Mrs. when introducing myself to students.
I also go by Miss First Name with really little kids.
ETA: It seems to me that for some reason schools have continued the use of Mrs. in the professional world. I wonder if this says anything larger about our society's value for teachers? (or lack thereof?) Or because it was traditionally an appropriate female field? I don't know, just mid-afternoon musings.
I wonder that too. And I wonder if all us lawyers are about this because it is such a historically male-dominated field and a lot of female attorneys have had to fight hard to be taken as seriously as their male counterparts -- so we may be more sensitive about mixing our marital status into the professional realm than others.
I think continuing use of Mrs. in education probably does stem in part from the fact that it is a historically female field, but I think a lot of the lawyer outrage has to do with the fact that lawyers tend to place a lot of importance on word choice. We assume that every word should be thoughtfully chosen to convey the correct meaning. I would bet for that reason that female engineers are less sensitive to this issue, despite also working in a historically male-dominated field. Words are not their focus to the same degree.