When we get into this discussion, I feel everyone is right. Because everyone is defining it differently.
I don't think someone who makes $300k/year and says they feel middle class is wrong, per se. And not because they can't hang in the same circles as the Kennedys.
Someone making $300k/year can probably afford to fully fund retirement, sock a ton in an HSA, pay for their child's entire college education, and live in a large home, relative to others. Someone making $50k/year does not have those luxuries. But strip out that kind of stuff, and you end up with someone who has less financial comfort (in terms of things like investments) and more modest THINGS (a $25 Target purse instead of a $2500 purse), but you still have people who make financial decisions like, "should we REALLY go out to eat again this week? Can we really afford a trip this year? Are we going to be able to renovate the kitchen next year?"
Compared with the 1% who control, what, 40% of the wealth in this country? The people who never have to think about the money they are spending. People who never fly on commercial airlines. People who have the money to design their lives so they never encounter anything they don't want to.
So while I might make twice as much as some people who qualify as "middle class" in my county, I certainly feel a lot closer to that than I do to those who are truly wealthy. I realize I am very lucky to have been able to CHOOSE to buy a house that was under the price we could easily afford - my neighbors who are a plumber and a SAHM probably didn't have that luxury. I'm lucky that I can save enough for retirement and for my kids to go to college. That I can continue to work AND afford to send my kids to daycare. That I can experience vacations. I get that. But I still worry about the cost of college, or the cost of moving to a bigger house when my family grows out of this one, or if I'll have to work until 70 to feel REALLY secure in my retirement savings.
And then, of course, the people who say, "STFU, upper middle class is not the same as actual middle class because you have choices," are right as well. It's just that the choices of the upper middle class (over about $90k in my county) are somewhat superficial when compared with the "choices" the truly wealthy make.
Let's just say we're all in this together in terms of out of control education and health care costs and the wealth disparity in this country.
I see what you're saying about wealth disparities and your point is well taken. I just strongly disagree that the "choices" we're talking about here are only superficial.
You know the stereotype of the UMC parents who have little Henry or Caroline taking Mandarin lessons at age 2 and violin at age 3? Or hire an admissions counselor to get into a private preschool? Those parents know how to play the game. Even if THEY never reach the upper class, their kids have a shot. They can afford the resources that help the next generation get and stay ahead. This is EXACTLY why the gulf is widening between the haves and have nots -- because we're not just talking about Prada purses.
Post by MadamePresident on Sept 15, 2014 15:46:05 GMT -5
We are middle class, but we live in a very affordable pay off the country, own our house, and have no debt, so we are probably better off financially that many of our peers.
What would be required for people to feel that they are upper class?
Oh, for god's sake, I feel like I am the only person in these threads that willingly will admit to being above middle class. Ridiculous...but anyhow.
DH and I are, IMO, solidly upper class at this point. We both have advanced degrees, white collar jobs, and a household income in the top 5% of the country (possibly even higher, I haven't checked the stats yet). Maybe I am naive as fuck or just a wanna-be, but I really can't think of a measuring stick that wouldn't make us upper class. It's asinine to pretend that because I'm not Bill Gates-wealthy or Kennedy-connected that I'm not upper class.
Post by flygirl22 on Sept 15, 2014 16:41:54 GMT -5
Can I say I'm rich without being upper class? Per the dictionary definition of upper class, I do not fit in with the upper class. I don't have any status in society. Every definition of "upper class" I can find identifies ability to pass down estates from generation to generation, influence over government/local policies, etc. These are things I do not have.. Maybe I will some day? (doubtful). But for now, my upper income at my age and background does not place me in the upper class definition.
Can I say I'm rich without being upper class? Per the dictionary definition of upper class, I do not fit in with the upper class. I don't have any status in society. Every definition of "upper class" I can find identifies ability to pass down estates from generation to generation, influence over government/local policies, etc. These are things I do not have.. Maybe I will some day? (doubtful). But for now, my upper income at my age and background does not place me in the upper class definition.
From my experience in this thread -- you *can,* but you'll be flamed for it
Way to put words in my mouth. Where did I say I wasn't wealthy? Upper class has very particular meaning, and most Americans -- including most wealthy Americans -- fall on the vast, vast spectrum that is the American middle class.
Unless we're counting the middle class as only the median 20% of any particular county, which would be stupid.
Except this isn't the United Kingdom or India where "class" is something that has to do with breeding. In the U.S. uniquely, we often conflate class and income because we value the self-made man and wanted to create a classless society. Trying to say you're not "upper class" in the British sense of the word is just a pointless discussion.
I don't want to be snarky but I am kind of loling at the idea that the US has ever been a classless society. Reread your Edith Wharton girl
Can I say I'm rich without being upper class? Per the dictionary definition of upper class, I do not fit in with the upper class. I don't have any status in society. Every definition of "upper class" I can find identifies ability to pass down estates from generation to generation, influence over government/local policies, etc. These are things I do not have.. Maybe I will some day? (doubtful). But for now, my upper income at my age and background does not place me in the upper class definition.
I think we are here too. HHI north of 500k which I realize is a lot compared to the general population. However, we don't do ANY upper class things, lol. We don't send our kids to private school. We don't belong to any private clubs. We live in a relatively small house in a nice but still recognizably MC neighborhood. We don't own boats or horses nor collect art or jewelry. We don't contribute to political campaigns. We don't go to black tie fundraisers. Our vacations are to places like Disney World, lol. Not St. Barths. We're not "connected." Neither of us went to Ivy League schools. We both come from LMC backgrounds and were first generation college grads. And on and on. Tbh, I'd feel like a complete fraud to claim UC status. That's just not who were are.
I see what you're saying about wealth disparities and your point is well taken. I just strongly disagree that the "choices" we're talking about here are only superficial.
You know the stereotype of the UMC parents who have little Henry or Caroline taking Mandarin lessons at age 2 and violin at age 3? Or hire an admissions counselor to get into a private preschool? Those parents know how to play the game. Even if THEY never reach the upper class, their kids have a shot. They can afford the resources that help the next generation get and stay ahead. This is EXACTLY why the gulf is widening between the haves and have nots -- because we're not just talking about Prada purses.
God, but WHY is this a goal for people? Why is having more money than Croesus something to aspire to? I'd rather die than sign my toddler up for Mandarin lessons and violin lessons, or Tiger-Mom my children into a lifestyle in which I no longer meet their standards.
Honestly, it sounds exhausting -- and ultimately like a defeat rather than a victory.
You would rather die than teach your child another language or how to play an instrument? huh?
When we get into this discussion, I feel everyone is right. Because everyone is defining it differently.
I don't think someone who makes $300k/year and says they feel middle class is wrong, per se. And not because they can't hang in the same circles as the Kennedys.
Someone making $300k/year can probably afford to fully fund retirement, sock a ton in an HSA, pay for their child's entire college education, and live in a large home, relative to others. Someone making $50k/year does not have those luxuries. But strip out that kind of stuff, and you end up with someone who has less financial comfort (in terms of things like investments) and more modest THINGS (a $25 Target purse instead of a $2500 purse), but you still have people who make financial decisions like, "should we REALLY go out to eat again this week? Can we really afford a trip this year? Are we going to be able to renovate the kitchen next year?"
Compared with the 1% who control, what, 40% of the wealth in this country? The people who never have to think about the money they are spending. People who never fly on commercial airlines. People who have the money to design their lives so they never encounter anything they don't want to.
So while I might make twice as much as some people who qualify as "middle class" in my county, I certainly feel a lot closer to that than I do to those who are truly wealthy. I realize I am very lucky to have been able to CHOOSE to buy a house that was under the price we could easily afford - my neighbors who are a plumber and a SAHM probably didn't have that luxury. I'm lucky that I can save enough for retirement and for my kids to go to college. That I can continue to work AND afford to send my kids to daycare. That I can experience vacations. I get that. But I still worry about the cost of college, or the cost of moving to a bigger house when my family grows out of this one, or if I'll have to work until 70 to feel REALLY secure in my retirement savings.
And then, of course, the people who say, "STFU, upper middle class is not the same as actual middle class because you have choices," are right as well. It's just that the choices of the upper middle class (over about $90k in my county) are somewhat superficial when compared with the "choices" the truly wealthy make.
Let's just say we're all in this together in terms of out of control education and health care costs and the wealth disparity in this country.
There is a video up in the WSJ right now talking about how it's possible to be broke on an income of 400k that kind of reminds me of what you are talking about.
But to me, that's just how America works. In my view, there is a fairly large poor population, and a minuscule upper class of household names/Forbes listers/etc. and their progeny, and everyone else falls somewhere in the very, very large middle class. That isn't to say that there aren't HUGE differences between the lower middle class and the upper middle class (or even the middle middle class and the lower or upper middles or the upper middles and the upper upper middles), and that there aren't plenty of wealthy upper middles -- but in my view, they're all parts of the middle class to which the vast majority of Americans belong.
You're just creating more middles so you can belong to one of them.
Culturally Americans like the middle class. You're not poor, but you're not some rich bastard who doesn't work hard for his money the way *you* do. So we do all these mental gymnastics to convince ourselves that we are in the middle.
v - I'm pretty sure my HHI is less than yours and I know I am above middle class. Even if DH and I were living in NYC or the fancy parts of NJ.
Why can't you acknowledge that and be grateful rather than continue the "I'm not wealthy because I'm not a Rockefeller" lament?
I'm wealthy. I fully acknowledge that, and fully acknowledge that I'd be an idiot not to think that. I just think upper class is something different. That's all.
Can I say I'm rich without being upper class? Per the dictionary definition of upper class, I do not fit in with the upper class. I don't have any status in society. Every definition of "upper class" I can find identifies ability to pass down estates from generation to generation, influence over government/local policies, etc. These are things I do not have.. Maybe I will some day? (doubtful). But for now, my upper income at my age and background does not place me in the upper class definition.
I think we are here too. HHI north of 500k which I realize is a lot compared to the general population. However, we don't do ANY upper class things, lol. We don't send our kids to private school. We don't belong to any private clubs. We live in a relatively small house in a nice but still recognizably MC neighborhood. We don't own boats or horses nor collect art or jewelry. We don't contribute to political campaigns. We don't go to black tie fundraisers. Our vacations are to places like Disney World, lol. Not St. Barths. We're not "connected." Neither of us went to Ivy League schools. We both come from LMC backgrounds and were first generation college grads. And on and on. Tbh, I'd feel like a complete fraud to claim UC status. That's just not who were are.
But if you must be doing something with your money. And if you're not, then you're "creating an estate for the next generation," which is one of the criteria for inclusion in the upper class. So you're either living a lifestyle 10x more lavish than the average American or generating wealth through savings and investments, or some combination of both. That's upper class, if not uber-elite from a social perspective.
Can I say I'm rich without being upper class? Per the dictionary definition of upper class, I do not fit in with the upper class. I don't have any status in society. Every definition of "upper class" I can find identifies ability to pass down estates from generation to generation, influence over government/local policies, etc. These are things I do not have.. Maybe I will some day? (doubtful). But for now, my upper income at my age and background does not place me in the upper class definition.
I think we are here too. HHI north of 500k which I realize is a lot compared to the general population. However, we don't do ANY upper class things, lol. We don't send our kids to private school. We don't belong to any private clubs. We live in a relatively small house in a nice but still recognizably MC neighborhood. We don't own boats or horses nor collect art or jewelry. We don't contribute to political campaigns. We don't go to black tie fundraisers. Our vacations are to places like Disney World, lol. Not St. Barths. We're not "connected." Neither of us went to Ivy League schools. We both come from LMC backgrounds and were first generation college grads. And on and on. Tbh, I'd feel like a complete fraud to claim UC status. That's just not who were are.
Pssst...you forgot about that car your husband bought.
@linzercookie I'm not saying we don't have money. That's not the point. I guess I've always seen class as a more social entity than an economic one. We can afford to join a country club. But we don't (primarily) because I don't think I'd feel comfortable there. I'd feel out of place. I'm that rube who invariably overtips service people like waiters, bellboys, valets, etc. because a.) I used to wait tables and know how much it sucks and b.) I feel really, really awkward asking someone else to do something for me that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself (such as carrying my luggage or cleaning my house). I feel awkward in super nice hotel lobbies, like I don't really belong there. I realize this sounds odd and kind of neurotic but you'd know what I'm talking about if you grew up the way I did (my mother was a waitress and my father a mechanic for many years before he eventually joined the local FD and we moved up the SES ladder). There were years when we actually relied on my dad's hunter friends for food in the winter. Your background has a lot to do with your social class.
I think we are here too. HHI north of 500k which I realize is a lot compared to the general population. However, we don't do ANY upper class things, lol. We don't send our kids to private school. We don't belong to any private clubs. We live in a relatively small house in a nice but still recognizably MC neighborhood. We don't own boats or horses nor collect art or jewelry. We don't contribute to political campaigns. We don't go to black tie fundraisers. Our vacations are to places like Disney World, lol. Not St. Barths. We're not "connected." Neither of us went to Ivy League schools. We both come from LMC backgrounds and were first generation college grads. And on and on. Tbh, I'd feel like a complete fraud to claim UC status. That's just not who were are.
Pssst...you forgot about that car your husband bought.
Ah but paradoxically I think that actually is an indicator of lower class background. If there is any truth to the stereotype of wealthy WASPs driving old beaters into the ground
I wouldn't *mind* being from an upper class background. I actually have a secret fascination with people who have Mayflower ancestors and summer on Nantucket and ride horses and sail and go to boarding school and all that. But that's just not me. I'll never be completely comfortable in a social milieu like that.
There is a video up in the WSJ right now talking about how it's possible to be broke on an income of 400k that kind of reminds me of what you are talking about.
I also read an article a few years ago about a couple with nice professional jobs. One was a dentist and one was something else high end. And they made $400k/year, which is approaching the 1%. But they lived paycheck to paycheck because they had two young kids in private school. They lived in a 1 bedroom apartment in Manhattan and couldn't afford something bigger near their offices.
And then, of course, someone posted the article last week about how living in a HCOL area IS a lifestyle choice, and one that people with more money are able to choose to make. Living in the middle of Manhattan is a choice. Private school is a choice.* Paying for your kids to go to college is a choice. A nicer car is a choice, etc. Which I get, but even for people at that income bracket, it's like death by a thousand cuts. Okay, so you get a new job and you make $20k more than you did, so now you're in the 6 figure range! But you might pay slightly more in taxes. And decide to increase your life insurance. And maybe increase your retirement contributions. So you're slightly better off than your friend making $75k, but it doesn't REALLY feel like it from a lifestyle perspective.
I guess that was my point with our friend who's a plumber. We have houses that cost similar amounts. Our kids will go to the same school. They don't pay for childcare, but we'll be paying $1k per child per month for that. We are likely saving more towards retirement and savings in general, but that doesn't really change our current life, you know?
*We were actually just talking NYC real estate with a friend over the weekend who lives in Park Slope. He said if he wants to buy something that's similar to his current apartment, it would be $850k-$1.2 million, depending on finishes, etc. His brother lives in a community in NNJ and has at least 3 times as much space for less! This friend really wants to keep living in Brooklyn, though, so they will probably move to Park Slope South, which is cheaper and maybe like 20 blocks away when their kids are a few years older. So again, it's a lifestyle choice, but it's also crazy that people with this income (more than ours) are struggling just to buy a 2 bedroom condo/co-op.
Oh! And there was this Princeton study a year or two ago that said that people basically need $75k. After that, you might be a little more secure, but not much happier. $75k meets the basic needs and/or perceived needs (like one vacation a year) of the vast majority of Americans. So I don't want to discount people who make $30k/year and could technically be considered middle class but are really struggling with money, of course. But $75k? Not THAT much different than $150k, even though it is literally twice as much money.
Can I say I'm rich without being upper class? Per the dictionary definition of upper class, I do not fit in with the upper class. I don't have any status in society. Every definition of "upper class" I can find identifies ability to pass down estates from generation to generation, influence over government/local policies, etc. These are things I do not have.. Maybe I will some day? (doubtful). But for now, my upper income at my age and background does not place me in the upper class definition.
I think we are here too. HHI north of 500k which I realize is a lot compared to the general population. However, we don't do ANY upper class things, lol. We don't send our kids to private school. We don't belong to any private clubs. We live in a relatively small house in a nice but still recognizably MC neighborhood. We don't own boats or horses nor collect art or jewelry. We don't contribute to political campaigns. We don't go to black tie fundraisers. Our vacations are to places like Disney World, lol. Not St. Barths. We're not "connected." Neither of us went to Ivy League schools. We both come from LMC backgrounds and were first generation college grads. And on and on. Tbh, I'd feel like a complete fraud to claim UC status. That's just not who were are.
Is this a joke?
JHC people.
The "upper class" in this country is not *just* this elusive secret club into which only people with Vanderbuilt blood are admitted. Yes, there is an American aristocracy of very elite families whose wealth and connection surpass all else. No, that does not mean that the upper class doesn't really exist, nor does it mean the upper class is limited to some microscopic slice of the uber-elite. Based on the contortions of some of the wealthy posters here, it seems that the upper class is a moving target, defined as anyone with more money or education or connections or blue blood than you currently have. Come the fuck on.
I don't deny that people obtain enormous advantages in life through the luck of their birth. But fuck no to the idea that those people are the only members of the American upper class.
Maybe your husbands aren't members of the Bohemian Grove, but no fucking way is that the bench mark for upper class in this country.
Based on some of your definitions, the entirety of Silicon Valley is "middle class". I just can't with that.
You people are conflating the shit out of economic class and social class.
Serious question: what is economic class? The Google "define" command and Wikipedia automatically reroute me to definitions of social class.
In undergrad, we always spoke of class encompassing one's social and economic background, which speaks to the basis of v's arguments here (though others may draw different lines depending on what social norms they consider to be elite v super elite or whatever).
If "economic class" is strictly about HHI, there's nothing to really argue about here. This 8-pager could have been squashed with hard cutoff points or quartiles for grouping the population into categories. Class seems like too complex a term to capture a single number.
You would rather die than teach your child another language or how to play an instrument? huh?
at age two or three? With the sole purpose of getting a leg up so they can achieve monetary gain? Yes.
Huh, well, I grew up in a working class family based on income alone. I was put in piano lessons at age 3, my dad was a pastor and music major, he valued music. I also spoke 2 languages in my early childhood, my sitter spoke Spanish and gave me lessons. These are not things that only the upper class values.
One could argue that we weren't really working class, my parents grew up middle class, they both went to college and the circumstances of my early childhood lasted for about 10 years and then circumstances got better. I would say that I grew up middle class even though our income would have presented as working class, it was a temporary position, just as anyone current income is. It's not an accurate picture of class.
I think we are here too. HHI north of 500k which I realize is a lot compared to the general population. However, we don't do ANY upper class things, lol. We don't send our kids to private school. We don't belong to any private clubs. We live in a relatively small house in a nice but still recognizably MC neighborhood. We don't own boats or horses nor collect art or jewelry. We don't contribute to political campaigns. We don't go to black tie fundraisers. Our vacations are to places like Disney World, lol. Not St. Barths. We're not "connected." Neither of us went to Ivy League schools. We both come from LMC backgrounds and were first generation college grads. And on and on. Tbh, I'd feel like a complete fraud to claim UC status. That's just not who were are.
Is this a joke?
JHC people.
The "upper class" in this country is not *just* this elusive secret club into which only people with Vanderbuilt blood are admitted. Yes, there is an American aristocracy of very elite families whose wealth and connection surpass all else. No, that does not mean that the upper class doesn't really exist, nor does it mean the upper class is limited to some microscopic slice of the uber-elite. Based on the contortions of some of the wealthy posters here, it seems that the upper class is a moving target, defined as anyone with more money or education or connections or blue blood than you currently have. Come the fuck on.
I don't deny that people obtain enormous advantages in life through the luck of their birth. But fuck no to the idea that those people are the only members of the American upper class.
Maybe your husbands aren't members of the Bohemian Grove, but no fucking way is that the bench mark for upper class in this country.
Based on some of your definitions, the entirety of Silicon Valley is "middle class". I just can't with that.
I don't even know what the Bohemian Grove is! Lol. That's kind of my point.
Serious question: don't you think the phrase social class has some social component to it? I honestly wouldn't mind being considered "upper class" - I don't think it has a negative connotation or whatever- but I just can't see it with how we both grew up (pretty close to poor) and how we choose to live now because of that. For instance. I feel really awkward about valet parking and having a bell boy bring up our luggage at a hotel because it's something we are perfectly capable of doing ourselves. I feel like we should do it ourselves and not put anyone else out, kwim? We pay for the service because I know it's their job and they want the money but it's still really awkward. Does any of this make sense? I don't know if I'm explaining it well.
I said this earlier but as another example of the social dimensions of class, I would consider a Yale grad who makes close to a poverty level income for whatever reason as MC or UC based just on their education. Background comes into it too, don't you think?
Post by flygirl22 on Sept 15, 2014 18:56:01 GMT -5
So isn't it just as "insulting" to put a person making that much in the same class as those making 1million+? I mean, why is it insulting for someone that makes 200K HHI (or whatever) to say they are upper middle class, but not insulting to say everyone that makes over.. 200K HHI are in the same class.
I'm not trying to insult anyone. And I don't think we are middle class. I said that to begin with. But there are a lot of posters who are saying if your HHI > x you must be upper class and I was trying to explain why that might not always be so for reasons of background, pedigree, prior education, career, etc. I always associate the phrase upper class with the concept of the "American aristocracy" - those blue blood type families like the Bushes or the Kennedy's, etc.
I'm not trying to insult anyone. And I don't think we are middle class. I said that to begin with. But there are a lot of posters who are saying if your HHI > x you must be upper class and I was trying to explain why that might not always be so for reasons of background, pedigree, prior education, career, etc. I always associate the phrase upper class with the concept of the "American aristocracy" - those blue blood type families like the Bushes or the Kennedy's, etc.
Lol, what? You may not have Bill Gates money, but with a HHI >500k you are most certainly upper class. The link only talked about income in different areas of the US, not this pedigree nonsense you keep mentioning!
I was chiming in in support of v and others who think social class is about more than money. How can the phrase socioeconomic status not have a social dimension?
Eta: It has nothing to do with not "feeling" rich, spending all our money on consumer goods and having nothing left over for savings, or the fact that there are people out there with more money or any of that nonsense.
I was chiming in in support of v and others who think social class is about more than money. How can the phrase socioeconomic status not have a social dimension?
Eta: It has nothing to do with not "feeling" rich, spending all our money on consumer goods and having nothing left over for savings, or the fact that there are people out there with more money or any of that nonsense.
You're mentioning the Bush/Kennedy families, these are not you're average upper class families.
They're the famous ones that all of us know about. For every one of them, there's many more who are unknown to the rest of the world. I'm talking about people who send their kids to schools that cost 30-40k a year or more as a matter of course. Whose acceptance in the Ivy League goes back generations. Who come from money and continue to add to the family pot over the years. They definitely exist.
We make solidly average middle class wages but have the possibility of significant inheritance on both sides of our families, so... Hmmm...
Honestly we live assuming our families will spend it all and/or give it all to charity, but I'd be comfortable saying "upper middle" at least given what we have in investments compared to our income?
They're the famous ones that all of us know about. For every one of them, there's many more who are unknown to the rest of the world. I'm talking about people who send their kids to schools that cost 30-40k a year or more as a matter of course. Whose acceptance in the Ivy League goes back generations. Who come from money and continue to add to the family pot over the years. They definitely exist.
They're still just people. There are lots of people I relate to and lots that I don't, from all walks of life and SES backgrounds.
Well sure. Of course. But the point is, they are the kind of people who are both socially and economically upper class IMHO.
When these threads devolve into the merits of upperclassdom, all I think about is Chris Rock's sketch "I ain't talking about rich, I'm talking about wealthy."
“Wealth is passed down from generation to generation. You can’t get rid of wealth. Rich is some shit you can lose with a crazy summer and a drug habit. Fuck, Rick James was rich. One minute you’re singing ‘Super Freak,’ the next you’re doing Old Navy commercials."
I just don't want to end up like Rick James. Old Navy jeans are really unbecoming on me.