Over the time we've been married, we have had household incomes of around $75K, around $150k, and substantially more than $150k. None of those felt like the other. It was very apparent to me that living with $150k of income is different than living with $75k in income. People honestly dispute that? Sure, I was happy at every income level, but that doesn't mean they are the same. That is crazy talk.
That said, I have never thought of my class as changing when my income has changed. I have thought of myself as falling in the same place on the class spectrum throughout my life (based primarily on how I grew up), which is probably part of why I view class as being about more than income. It would seem odd to me for one's class to change entirely with every significant pay increase or pay cut, lengthy span of unemployment, etc. If I decided to SAH with our kids and our income therefore decreased dramatically, I doubt it would change how I think of our class standing. And I don't buy that most recent college grad starts out lower-middle class and then move up from there either, which would be the logical conclusion if class is really defined by income alone.
IT STILL DOESN'T MATTER. You are not the plumber. And neither is your Park Slope buddy, because in a pinch, he can sell his fucking apartment for a million dollars and the plumber cannot. The Park Slope asshole's kids go to some of the best schools imaginable, and the plumber's kids do not. And again, YOU HAVE SAVINGS AND THE PLUMBER DOES NOT. You have the prospect of retirement and the plumber does not.
I'm absolutely astonished that you have no earthly idea why your perspective on this could even possibly be considered insulting to someone in an actual working-class job. Are you this far up your own ass?
ETA: And lastly, you also have advanced degrees and, presumably, far greater earning potential in the future than the plumber. Which also makes you NOT EVEN REMOTELY LIKE THE PLUMBER.
My friend does not own his apartment. He cannot afford to own an apartment. My neighbor DOES own his house and in pinch could sell it, I guess. But it's quite an affordable house for this area (meaning that rent on a 3 bedroom house or apartment would be similar to the entire mortgage payment, PITI).
And I had no idea that the NYC public school system was leagues better than my local suburban public school. In fact, I think his kids' elementary school is rated an 8 on great schools and ours is rated a 10, which tells me that our school is, in fact, possibly better. *Off to list my house for sale, since I apparently live in a shitty school district, as my kids will go to school with a plumber's kids, after all.*
OMG I can't. You really can't see past the end of your own nose. You honestly, really, very seriously think you are on the same level playing field as a plumber? Like, you're really going with this? Despite things like retirement and savings and earning potential and education? You're really gonna be like, "You and me, plumber! We're sympatico!" ? Because I cannot decide whether to laugh or cry at the ignorance.
I'm veering off into a completely different subject, but how do you know what his earning potential is? How do I *really* know how much more my husband and I make (I assume we make more because our neighbor's wife is a SAHM and I work, so my husband and I are DINKs). All I can really say is that we qualify as making more than the 40% - 60% level in our county, and I chose a profession often seen as middle class. More education often means more debt or less savings, and less earning potential while in school, which means less in savings and fewer assets, at least until the higher income potential kicks in. Working in the trades certainly has high income potential, especially when it comes to being a business owner or general contractor, while the education needed to earn certificates in order to move up is substantially lower than a traditional 4 year degree.
Ask anyone with a JD who doesn't work in big law how they feel about the "earning potential" they are paying for in 4 figure monthly student loans. That DOES matter to some degree.
Warren Buffet lives in a five bedroom house he bought in 1958 for $35,000? Does that mean he is middle class cause he doesn't live the upper class lifestyle?
Oppss... He just bought a new Caddy, I guess now crossed the line into upper class.
No, because again "Most definitions of class structure group people according to wealth, income, education, type of occupation, and membership in a specific subculture or social network."
The only of those that possibly has to do with actual current spending is the last.
Lol, of course Warren Buffett isn't middle class. I was just throwing it out there cause it as crazy as some of the other folks claiming to be middle class in this thread.
Why are we so willing to divide the middle class into segments (lower middle, middle middle, and upper middle) but won't when it comes to the upper class? If you earn in the top 10% of incomes, you are upper class. You may not be part of the uppermost class, or the elite, either economically or socially, but that doesn't mean you haven't crossed over into the upper class bracket.
It's interesting when people are uncomfortable with recognizing and acknowledging their privilege. It's not bragging to admit you're better off than most, it's called being aware of economic realities.
I feel like I should throw in an "evaluate yourself", but I imagine that would be seen as /combative.
Over the time we've been married, we have had household incomes of around $75K, around $150k, and substantially more than $150k. None of those felt like the other. It was very apparent to me that living with $150k of income is different than living with $75k in income. People honestly dispute that? Sure, I was happy at every income level, but that doesn't mean they are the same. That is crazy talk.
That said, I have never thought of my class as changing when my income has changed. I have thought of myself as falling in the same place on the class spectrum throughout my life (based primarily on how I grew up), which is probably part of why I view class as being about more than income. It would seem odd to me for one's class to change entirely with every significant pay increase or pay cut, lengthy span of unemployment, etc. If I decided to SAH with our kids and our income therefore decreased dramatically, I doubt it would change how I think of our class standing. And I don't buy that most recent college grad starts out lower-middle class and then move up from there either, which would be the logical conclusion if class is really defined by income alone.
I don't think anyone is saying it's 100% income (or at least I wasn't). It's just that your financial assets aren't just a "big" part of your socioeconomic class; they're the overwhelming part. If anything, factors such as your profession and your education and your family background will elevate you rather than vice versa. While we may sneer at Kim Kardashian's sex tape and say things like "money can't buy class," in all but the most upper crust corners of our society, if you have money, you are upper class. Even if you're "new money" and a little rough around the edges. In a generation or two, it won't matter that granny swore like a sailor and drank moonshine and made sex tapes.
And that's the other thing people are forgetting in this whole argument about whether $75k = $150k. On $150k, you can probably move to a better school district where your kids have access to honors classes and college guidance counselors. Maybe your neighbor works for the local Fortune 500 and when your kid applies for an internship, he puts in a good word for her. And if that internship is unpaid, you'll grit your teach and help her with her car payments that summer because you know it'll look good on her resume. She has her whole life to get a "real job," right? And what's a few hundred dollars to you?
As student debt soars and colleges become more competitive than ever and our economy is increasingly moving to a "knowledge economy" rather than a manufacturing one ... does anyone really think these small advantages that the upper middle class can give their kids don't matter?
That said, I have never thought of my class as changing when my income has changed. I have thought of myself as falling in the same place on the class spectrum throughout my life (based primarily on how I grew up), which is probably part of why I view class as being about more than income. It would seem odd to me for one's class to change entirely with every significant pay increase or pay cut, lengthy span of unemployment, etc. If I decided to SAH with our kids and our income therefore decreased dramatically, I doubt it would change how I think of our class standing. And I don't buy that most recent college grad starts out lower-middle class and then move up from there either, which would be the logical conclusion if class is really defined by income alone.
This sounds like something only someone from the upper class would say, frankly. I assure you that I definitely upgraded myself to middle class when I got my first professional job out of college, and acknowledge that our income puts us in the upper class now. That's exactly why people work hard. I'm supposed to be lower class because that's where I was born? No. Similarly, someone making $30k isn't upper class regardless of income, unless they have a trust fund.
This is neither here nor there but actually, due to low supply/high demand for skilled labor, plumbers can do pretty well for themselves. They can definitely make six figures owning their own business. I grew up in a resort town on the a Jersey Shore and the local plumber is one of the wealthiest year round residents. We tried to get a mason or landscaper to build us a retaining wall in our backyard this summer and could not even get them to call us back to give us estimates due to demand for their services being so high.
Over the time we've been married, we have had household incomes of around $75K, around $150k, and substantially more than $150k. None of those felt like the other. It was very apparent to me that living with $150k of income is different than living with $75k in income. People honestly dispute that? Sure, I was happy at every income level, but that doesn't mean they are the same. That is crazy talk.
That said, I have never thought of my class as changing when my income has changed. I have thought of myself as falling in the same place on the class spectrum throughout my life (based primarily on how I grew up), which is probably part of why I view class as being about more than income. It would seem odd to me for one's class to change entirely with every significant pay increase or pay cut, lengthy span of unemployment, etc. If I decided to SAH with our kids and our income therefore decreased dramatically, I doubt it would change how I think of our class standing. And I don't buy that most recent college grad starts out lower-middle class and then move up from there either, which would be the logical conclusion if class is really defined by income alone.
I don't think anyone is saying it's 100% income (or at least I wasn't). It's just that your financial assets aren't just a "big" part of your socioeconomic class; they're the overwhelming part.
The calculator tool this thread is based on is saying it is 100% income, and some posters appear to agree. I think that is crazy, for a variety of reasons. It has the potential to put rich kids with massive family safety nets, huge eventual inheritances, and low-paying "fun" jobs in the lower middle class, while someone from a poor background with massive debt and no wealth who manages to land a $75K job is upper class (at least in my county). I don't think that is accurate.
That said, if we are going to include wealth and not just income, then sure, I can agree that financial assets are the overwhelming, but not only, determinate of SEC in America.
This is neither here nor there but actually, due to low supply/high demand for skilled labor, plumbers can do pretty well for themselves. They can definitely make six figures owning their own business. I grew up in a resort town on the a Jersey Shore and the local plumber is one of the wealthiest year round residents. We tried to get a mason or landscaper to build us a retaining wall in our backyard this summer and could not even get them to call us back to give us estimates due to demand for their services being so high.
Gotcha.
So, where are we now?
Upper class: Vanderbilts, Rockafellers, Bushes, Kennedys, and plumbers (maybe also masons and landscapers)
Middle class: anyone who feels middle class, anyone with student loans, anyone with day care costs
This is neither here nor there but actually, due to low supply/high demand for skilled labor, plumbers can do pretty well for themselves. They can definitely make six figures owning their own business. I grew up in a resort town on the a Jersey Shore and the local plumber is one of the wealthiest year round residents. We tried to get a mason or landscaper to build us a retaining wall in our backyard this summer and could not even get them to call us back to give us estimates due to demand for their services being so high.
In the oil industry a trades person can make over $200k but they have to work long shifts, 7 days on / 7 days off, and/or live in camp while they are working at fly in locations. They are certainly rich but doesn't seem like an 'upper class life' either.
DH and I are objectively in the upper economic class. Socially? Not at all. Not even close, lol. But these surveys only refer to income.
When was the last time any of you had to forego food in order to pay your bills? Please tell me.
I think you and I are on the same page here, but I will say this is not necessarily a qualification of being middle class. I am absolutely middle class but I can pay my bills, buy food, and buy some extras plus save a bit here and there. It helps that I don't have kids but I don't think being able to live a modest life somewhat comfortably makes you upper class.
When was the last time any of you had to forego food in order to pay your bills? Please tell me.
I think you and I are on the same page here, but I will say this is not necessarily a qualification of being middle class. I am absolutely middle class but I can pay my bills, buy food, and buy some extras plus save a bit here and there. It helps that I don't have kids but I don't think being able to live a modest life somewhat comfortably makes you upper class.
Obviously it isn't a qualifier for being middle class. I'm just asking people to step back and get some fucking perspective.
This is neither here nor there but actually, due to low supply/high demand for skilled labor, plumbers can do pretty well for themselves. They can definitely make six figures owning their own business. I grew up in a resort town on the a Jersey Shore and the local plumber is one of the wealthiest year round residents. We tried to get a mason or landscaper to build us a retaining wall in our backyard this summer and could not even get them to call us back to give us estimates due to demand for their services being so high.
Gotcha.
So, where are we now?
Upper class: Vanderbilts, Rockafellers, Bushes, Kennedys, and plumbers (maybe also masons and landscapers)
Middle class: anyone who feels middle class, anyone with student loans, anyone with day care costs
Am I forgetting anything?
You can be a rich plumber. Absolutely. Does that necessarily make you upper class? Do education, background, social status of their profession not count? I posted because people in here were disparaging plumbers and presuming that they paycheck to paycheck. Anyhow, I concede that the children of rich plumbers probably will grow up to be more traditionally UC. We'll have to agree to disagree.
And can I just add, by virtue of the way this widget categorizes middle class using the middle fifth, it is implied that there are two categories on either end of the middle. Which means those doing better than middle class are in fact segmented as well. The upper class is divided. And on more than just whether or not they should be called the upper class. lol
Really all this is doing is giving you a way to see if you're doing better or worse than the most middle of incomes for your area.
That said, I have never thought of my class as changing when my income has changed. I have thought of myself as falling in the same place on the class spectrum throughout my life (based primarily on how I grew up), which is probably part of why I view class as being about more than income. It would seem odd to me for one's class to change entirely with every significant pay increase or pay cut, lengthy span of unemployment, etc. If I decided to SAH with our kids and our income therefore decreased dramatically, I doubt it would change how I think of our class standing. And I don't buy that most recent college grad starts out lower-middle class and then move up from there either, which would be the logical conclusion if class is really defined by income alone.
This sounds like something only someone from the upper class would say, frankly. I assure you that I definitely upgraded myself to middle class when I got my first professional job out of college, and acknowledge that our income puts us in the upper class now. That's exactly why people work hard. I'm supposed to be lower class because that's where I was born? No. Similarly, someone making $30k isn't upper class regardless of income, unless they have a trust fund.
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
This sounds like something only someone from the upper class would say, frankly. I assure you that I definitely upgraded myself to middle class when I got my first professional job out of college, and acknowledge that our income puts us in the upper class now. That's exactly why people work hard. I'm supposed to be lower class because that's where I was born? No. Similarly, someone making $30k isn't upper class regardless of income, unless they have a trust fund.
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
Both of you received money from family, which is in the same boat with trust fund to me. If your friend was TRULY living on $32k with no family help, I promise she wouldn't be upper class. She would have none of those things you listed as an example of her class without family money or credit cards.
This sounds like something only someone from the upper class would say, frankly. I assure you that I definitely upgraded myself to middle class when I got my first professional job out of college, and acknowledge that our income puts us in the upper class now. That's exactly why people work hard. I'm supposed to be lower class because that's where I was born? No. Similarly, someone making $30k isn't upper class regardless of income, unless they have a trust fund.
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
Your friend is exactly the kind of person I was talking about earlier. I completely agree that your background goes a long way in determining your social class, even as an adult. I do think it's possible to change classes but I also assume it is pretty rare.
If you are above this does that make you "upper class"? What are the classes? Low class, middle class and upper class? Nice to know I am "upper class". I've never even heard that term. I'm in the top 14%. www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html
This sounds like something only someone from the upper class would say, frankly. I assure you that I definitely upgraded myself to middle class when I got my first professional job out of college, and acknowledge that our income puts us in the upper class now. That's exactly why people work hard. I'm supposed to be lower class because that's where I was born? No. Similarly, someone making $30k isn't upper class regardless of income, unless they have a trust fund.
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
This makes sense to me.
My current income/job puts me at the bottom end of the middle class according to the link in the OP, and the lower middle class according to that chart someone posted earlier. But I feel a little funny calling myself lower middle class. I have a master's degree and while I stress about money, it's not a matter of paying my bills or feeding myself but more of a guilt that I'm not saving more or paying down more debt, or frustration that I can't go buy all the clothes I want this fall or go to a festival later this month that I want to. Those are not lower class problems, but the fact that I have a MS doesn't put me in the upper class either since I don't make enough money to support an upper class lifestyle (i.e. I rent a small house, cook most of my own meals, buy clothes at Target, only take low budget vacations and somewhat infrequently, etc).
I guess that's why this is such a weird debate, because we all have different definitions of what the classes mean. I would say I'm straight up middle class or even upper middle class based on my education and resource availability (I do have minimal savings and places I could access money in a pinch, like family or credit cards). Someone making the exact same amount of money as me with a HS degree and 2 kids at home might have a very different feeling about their class. I also think I'm very different from those of you who are making several times more than I am and living/spending accordingly. You can't tell me some of the posters in here (like V, but not to pick on just her) are the same class as me, but it's also not accurate to say someone who has to choose between food and paying bills is the same class as me either.
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
Both of you received money from family, which is in the same boat with trust fund to me. If your friend was TRULY living on $32k with no family help, I promise she wouldn't be upper class. She would have none of those things you listed as an example of her class without family money or credit cards.
Of course. No one truly living on $32k would ever be upper class. But the vast majority of kids from upper and to a large extent upper middle class backgrounds are getting some measure of family help (ranging in scale from a big trust fund to covering a cell phone bill) such that they aren't truly living off their incomes. Which kind of seems to support the notion that kids from wealthy backgrounds will generally never be poor or lower middle class, even if their income puts them there. Though I guess if we lump all gifts and assistance from family into "income" as lucyhoneychurch proposed, you would account for that. It's just that most people don 't define "income" that broadly.
What exactly is that difference? Can you link to a source? Because the ones I've found defining "class" in America all mix the two and are far more heavily influenced by the economic factors vs the social--and those are even sociology models, not economic ones.
Pfft I could have linked to a source back in my undergrad days ;-) But you really don't get the difference? and I do think class is far more heavily influenced by economic factors. You can buy your way up. It may take a generation or two, but you can definitely buy your way into some of these social circles. New money becomes old money very quickly in the US.
I think of it this way.
If caroline kennedy were to lose all her money today, she would still be upper class. But that doesn't mean that the doctor making 800k is not upper class, even if he is the first one in his family to go to grad school.
Being "upper class" is not some private club that only lets in certain members. Just because Caroline Kennedy is upper class doesn't mean that some of the posters here aren't upper class too.
I didn't realize that was such a controversial sentiment.
And I'm not disagreeing with you. But even if you only look at economics--annual income does not equal "class". Economically, wealth has far more to do with economic "class" than last year's income does.
And, yes, I know I've got it better, way better than the bulk of Americans. In no way am I saying that I don't. I am privileged. I have opportunities most don't. In theory, I could make it to the Upper Class in my lifetime. But here is an example as to why I bristle at being called "upper class" now when talking in economic terms (and just based on annual income).
Me: I have a BS degree from a barely-known state school, work a white collar, non-managerial job, and rented until I got married (and would still be renting in my 40s if I hadn't married). With my DH, I now own a house worth ~$280K. My wealthiest grandparent died and I inherited $1K. When my parents die, I will split the value of a house (~$380k) and a pile of stuff with only sentimental value with my brother. My average income is above the "middle class" in the CNN poll.
My friend: She has a JD, Masters, and BS from nationally-recognized schools, she works in a Cabinet-level professional job two-levels below political-appointee level, and she purchased a condo (with her parents help) before she was 30. With her DH, she now owns a house worth ~$1.1M. When her wealthiest grandparent dies, she will inherit ~$10M. When her parents die, she will inherit in the $100Ms range. Her average income is above the "middle class" in the CNN poll.
To say we are equal financially and in "economic class" doesn't make sense to me. So our annual income isn't that diffferent as is above the "middle class", but she has wealth--I don't. Again, my annual income is way better than most Americans and isn't that much lower than her annual income, but to say I'm economically no different than my friend because of that is ignoring the rest of the picture.
Post by msmerymac on Sept 16, 2014 11:51:55 GMT -5
Yes, wages are different than income, which is different from assets.
The wealthy tend to have, well, more of all of those things. But assets that produce income are what really generate generational-transfer kind of wealth. And to get those, you either need a higher income or generational wealth in the first place (like parents buying you a house in an area where its value will no doubt skyrocket).
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
In cases like these, I would include health insurance, clothes, etc in with "income."
I agree, the gifts of housing, clothes, jewelry and country club membership would all be taxable to the parents for gift tax purposes as well.
If you are above this does that make you "upper class"? What are the classes? Low class, middle class and upper class? Nice to know I am "upper class". I've never even heard that term. I'm in the top 14%. www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html
This one is interesting. I am top 18% overall but top 10% in my state. That is baffling to me.
But no one is saying that the person who will inherit hundreds of millions is in the same economic situation as the person who makes 300k a year with no family wealth of any kind. I think both are "upper class" but there are clearly different levels to that classification, and I don't think anyone here is disputing that. There is always going to be someone who is more "upper" than you, unless you are Bill Gates or whoever is the richest man in the country right now.
Just as people making 75k balk at being grouped with people who make 150k, people making 150k balk at being grouped with Bill Gates. This is the problem with insisting that there are exactly 3 economic classes, regardless of where/how you draw the lines. It's a pretty vast spectrum.
Sorry for interrupting the lively discussions, but what are the five categories? Has this been answered already? This doohickey said that it is using the middle fifth as "middle class". That would leave two groups below and two above middle class so it isn't a straight low, middle, upper. Are they the super poors, the sorta poors, the middle, the too much money to be middle but not a Vanderbilt/Kennedy/Bill Gates, and the Vanderbilts/Kennedys/Bill Gates? I only ask this because if you are above middle you are probably doing alright. Some can argue how well or badly but you certainly aren't starving, yet there always seems to be an argument about how close or far you are from the middle if you are above it. If you are below the middle you are likely struggling. I haven't really seen a distinction between below the middle and WAY below the middle.
Post by gardengal on Sept 16, 2014 12:46:09 GMT -5
Well, this has been entertaining.
We are in HCOL area & household income is 2x the lower end of the scale (approx). We are not middle class. I don't feel "middle class " despite 2 in daycare.
Being wealthy/upper class/whatever you want to call it does not prevent me from tell my son that the $300 Thomas the train play set is "too much money." It does not prevent me from shopping the sales flyer, buying used clothes, growing my own food, or only buying used cars. You can be cheap & still be wealthy.