This sounds like something only someone from the upper class would say, frankly. I assure you that I definitely upgraded myself to middle class when I got my first professional job out of college, and acknowledge that our income puts us in the upper class now. That's exactly why people work hard. I'm supposed to be lower class because that's where I was born? No. Similarly, someone making $30k isn't upper class regardless of income, unless they have a trust fund.
I can think of people I know IRL with incomes in the $30k range who I am 100% certain are upper class despite not having trust funds from which they are currently drawing distributions. I have a friend who is 33 years old and is assistant curator at an art museum making what is a very middle class income in our county. She stands to inherit eight figures, will begin drawing distributions from a large trust fund on her 35th birthday, and has a home in a rich neighborhood, undergrad and grad degrees from elite schools, and a country club membership all paid for in full by her parents. She is always dressed in designer clothes and expensive jewelry, all gifts from her family. She recently hired a personal assistant to help her catalog her art books and other "personal collections." You really think she's not upper class because she is making $30k right now, despite massive family wealth? I think it would seem ridiculously disingenuous for someone in that position to identify themselves as middle class.
I don't have anywhere near that level of family wealth, and I certainly do not now nor will I ever have a trust fund. But when I was making $27k in DC right after college, I still didn't consider myself lower middle class or poor or whatever I would have qualified as based on income alone, because my father was paying for the health insurance I otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford, buying me plane tickets home for holidays, and would have come to my rescue had I needed money. I would have felt like a pretty big asshole insisting that I was lower middle class because of my income when I enjoyed a bunch of luxuries that would generally not be available at that income level.
I agree with this. DH and I may have exactly a middle class income, but I would feel very disingenuous if I called us middle class. The only reason we are where we are is because we both had a lot of financial support from our families. No SLs and our house downpayment was from investments set up for us as kids. We are also fairly open with people in giving credit to our families, and not trying to pretend like we somehow afford our lifestyle by pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps.
Now, we could have blown the money on cars and a fancy wedding and trips around the world, but we paid for school and a house and have a nice emergency fund. And since DH had a stroke, we've been able to pay off our medical bills without going into debt.
I don't necessarily think we're upper class, just given the fact that our income is solidly in the middle, but I would say we're upper middle class who come from upper class families? If someone wanted to say we are upper class I wouldn't disagree necessarily. I recognize that since I've been around people with a lot more wealth than me it clouds my judgment.
But no one is saying that the person who will inherit hundreds of millions is in the same economic situation as the person who makes 300k a year with no family wealth of any kind. I think both are "upper class" but there are clearly different levels to that classification, and I don't think anyone here is disputing that. There is always going to be someone who is more "upper" than you, unless you are Bill Gates or whoever is the richest man in the country right now.
But I am saying that the classifications I proved links to put me in the Upper Middle Class and my friend in the Upper Class (or Rich Class). The other link posted in this thread to the 1984 and 2014 ranges also put me in the Upper Middle Class, not in the Upper Class. I'm not understanding why people here on so insistent that in their minds, I must be Upper Class because my annual income is higher than the average and ignore the rest of the factors and actual defined classifications because they "feel" I should be "Upper Class" (and I say "feel" because no one has yet to provide a link to an acknowledged/published "class definition or model" that puts me in the Upper Class).
Trust me, if I ever manage to make it into the group those models define as Upper Class--I'll AW it here all freaking day.
And I'm not disagreeing with you. But even if you only look at economics--annual income does not equal "class". Economically, wealth has far more to do with economic "class" than last year's income does.
And, yes, I know I've got it better, way better than the bulk of Americans. In no way am I saying that I don't. I am privileged. I have opportunities most don't. In theory, I could make it to the Upper Class in my lifetime. But here is an example as to why I bristle at being called "upper class" now when talking in economic terms (and just based on annual income).
Me: I have a BS degree from a barely-known state school, work a white collar, non-managerial job, and rented until I got married (and would still be renting in my 40s if I hadn't married). With my DH, I now own a house worth ~$280K. My wealthiest grandparent died and I inherited $1K. When my parents die, I will split the value of a house (~$380k) and a pile of stuff with only sentimental value with my brother. My average income is above the "middle class" in the CNN poll.
My friend: She has a JD, Masters, and BS from nationally-recognized schools, she works in a Cabinet-level professional job two-levels below political-appointee level, and she purchased a condo (with her parents help) before she was 30. With her DH, she now owns a house worth ~$1.1M. When her wealthiest grandparent dies, she will inherit ~$10M. When her parents die, she will inherit in the $100Ms range. Her average income is above the "middle class" in the CNN poll.
To say we are equal financially and in "economic class" doesn't make sense to me. So our annual income isn't that different as is above the "middle class", but she has wealth--I don't. Again, my annual income is way better than most Americans and isn't that much lower than her annual income, but to say I'm economically no different than my friend because of that is ignoring the rest of the picture.
Another just curious question--and I'm not at all denying that you and your friend are living drastically different lifestyles with drastically different types of privilege, but do you draw distinctions among the "lower class", too? So for example, if I am remembering the lower end of the middle class range for my county, it was about $44K, I think. So let's say anything below $44K is lower class.
Me: I have a GED, earn $27K per year at a manufacturing plant, live in a rented apartment. My wealthiest grandparent died and I had to pay my last damn $127 toward funeral costs. When my parents die, I will have to box their shit up and donate it to the Goodwill and try to avoid their creditors.
My friend: She has a diploma and an associate's degree. She earns $42K as...what else...a plumber's assistant. She owns a home that she bought as a foreclosure, for $74K. When her wealthiest grandparent died, she inherited $1K and when her parents die, she will inherit $5K.
There are levels for sure, but we're still, per our income, both lower class. I think these levels exist within the upper class, but by definition, there are greater disparities. Even right now, your friend is upper class by any standard, but her inheritances are obviously going to propel her into the top of that heap.
Actually, by the models I posted, she is lower middle class, not lower (or working) class. Because income, again, not the only factor involved in "class". The level of education, type of job, and home ownership vs renting also factor in.
BTW, the majority of my close friends are in the Working/Lower Middle Class and I'm well aware the differences in lifestyle between Poor-Lower Middle Class are tiny compared to the difference in available lifestyle from Lower Middle to Upper Middle.
Upper class: Vanderbilts, Rockafellers, Bushes, Kennedys, and plumbers (maybe also masons and landscapers)
Middle class: anyone who feels middle class, anyone with student loans, anyone with day care costs
Am I forgetting anything?
Yes, if you could please include people who live in VHCOL areas in the middle class, that would help the case of many around here (you and me included since we're both in SF!). I think there are still a few seats open on that middle class bus, no?
Hold the bus! I was just going to say, All HCOL, must be firmly middle class, right?
Since the original subject matter was "are you upper class based on INCOME" then the only possible answer would be yes (for us). However, since in my mind there are social aspects to class as well as economic ones, then I would have to say that SOCIO-economically and by all other standards we are solidly upper middle class.
DH has a professional degree and a highly-compensated professional job; I SAH based on the income his degree provides and do not have to work to bring in income. That makes us (easily) upper class; if we were middle class I would be working to support the family too or we would be forced to make different lifestyle choices, which we are not. However, for the vast majority of our lives, we did not make our current income and I held working-class jobs (retail, administrative); we are both on the downhill side of middle age here so that's a good chunk of time that we were held there. Before I married him I was a military wife of an enlisted so again, lower/middle class. My kids weren't beneficiaries of our income and current lifestyle choices as they were adults or nearly so when we reached this income level (it was a leap, not a progression), so it isn't a generational wealth or benefit. My parents had middle class jobs; his mom was a government worker and dad was unemployed and disabled. As long as we're required to work for a living, based on how we grew up and the fact that we lived the vast majority of our adult lives (and continue to live the same lifestyle) in a similar manner, it's not easy to state that yes, we are "upper class." There are too many social markers that have defined the vast majority of our lives for us to say "meh, we're upper class" without qualifications.
However, based on our current upper (class) income, we CHOOSE to live a middle class lifestyle(based on socioeconomic indicators we would be defined as "upper middle class, professional"), primarily because of how we were raised and what makes us comfortable. So, by being able to make that choice, we're upper class. We're able to afford VIP tickets to events, we can pack up for a weekend away without having to worry about whether we can afford it, we put money in savings and pay for what we want when we want it, etc. This is what an upper income affords us. And hopefully this upper income will benefit the future generations, in affording them to go to good colleges, have good educations and lead financially comfortable lives, where they may be perceived by those who are actually middle class to be one of the "blessed" upper class, or at least the lucky ones with family help and backing.
So, I'm with the other upper income class folk, I suppose, in stating that upper class is more than just income qualifiers.
Actually, by the models I posted, she is lower middle class, not lower (or working) class. Because income, again, not the only factor involved in "class". The level of education, type of job, and home ownership vs renting also factor in.
BTW, the majority of my close friends are in the Working/Lower Middle Class and I'm well aware the differences in lifestyle between Poor-Lower Middle Class are tiny compared to the difference in available lifestyle from Lower Middle to Upper Middle.
Lol. I sense a tone, but I'm only asking for clarity. Did you not write:
Her average income is above the "middle class" in the CNN poll.
and
She now owns a house worth ~$1.1M.
and
She has a JD, Masters, and BS from nationally-recognized schools
as your illustrations of why you two were in different classes? Also, just so I'm crystal clear, a person with above-average income, a house valued over $1M and two post-graduate degrees is lower middle class? How much does her house need to be worth and how much education does she need to be regular old middle class? If she's lower middle, are you, with your $300K home, undergrad degree and above-average income, also lower-middle or are you working class/lower class?
The "she" in my quote above was your friend from your example. I was responding to your example, didn't mean be confusing.
*My* friend, with the attributes you quoted here, is Upper Class.
I just had my personal assistant read me this entire thread while I bathed in bathtub of Benjamins.
After I get done paying my pool boy, the landscapers, the cat nanny, my personal stylist, the housekeepers, the Bugatti payment, the wax girl, and all those other people I pay to do things I could do myself, I barely have enough of my allowance leftover to for my personal chef to put food on the table.
I'm not upper class. I'm just like you. Javier called in yesterday so I even made my own coffee before I ran errands to the local country club. And when my stylist got knocked up and missed a week of work after giving birth, I didn't know what to wear, so I bought a Made in China dress from a street vendor while I was on vacation. Because I can't afford backup servants. We're all in this middle class thing together.
After I get done paying my pool boy, the landscapers, the cat nanny, my personal stylist, the housekeepers, the Bugatti payment, the wax girl, and all those other people I pay to do things I could do myself, I barely have enough of my allowance leftover to for my personal chef to put food on the table.
Geez. For a bunch of "smart" people some of you are really fucking stupid.
Or we've actually read up on the topic.
I'd highly recommend Class: A Guide Through the American Status System. It is an interesting and fun read. The author (who can be quite tongue-in-cheek) divides the US into 9 classes:
Top Out of Sight - Billionaires and multi-millionaires. The people so wealthy they can afford exclusive levels of privacy. We never hear about them because they don't want us to.
Upper Class - Millionaires, inherited wealth. Those who don't have to work.
Upper Middle - Wealthy surgeons and lawyers, etc. Professionals who couldn't be described as middle class.
Middle Class - The great American majority, sort of.
High Proletarian (or "prole") - Skilled workers but manual labor. Electricians, plumbers, etc. Probably not familiar with the term "proletarian."
Low Prole - Non-skilled of a lower level than mid prole. I suspect these people ask "Would you like fries with that, sir?" as a career.
Destitute - Working and non-working poor.
Bottom Out of Sight - Street people, the most destitute in society. "Out of sight" because they have no voice, influence or voter impact. (They don't vote.)
Let’s take a guy — call him Hank — who built a successful auto-repair business and expanded it to 30 locations, and now his stake in the business is worth $100 million. He is not just in the 1%; he’s in the top fraction of the 1% — but he’s not part of the new upper class. He went to a second-tier state university, or maybe he didn’t complete college at all. He grew up in a working-class or middle-class home and married a woman who didn’t complete college. He now lives in a neighborhood with other rich people, but they’re mostly other people who got rich the same way he did. (The new upper class considers the glitzy mansions in his suburb to be déclassé.) He has a lot of money, but he doesn’t have power or influence over national culture, politics or economy, nor does he even have any particular influence over the culture, politics or economy of the city where he lives. He’s just rich.
The new upper class is different. It consists of the people who run the country. By “the people who run the country,” I mean two sets of people. The first is the small set of people — well under 100,000, by a rigorous definition — who are responsible for the films and television shows you watch, the news you see and read, the success (or failure) of the nation’s leading corporations and financial institutions and the jurisprudence, legislation and regulations produced by government. The second is the broader set, numbering a few million people, who hold comparable positions of influence in the nation’s major cities.
How many social classes are there in the United States? Disagreement within the field on both the number and the composition of these classes. Many sociologists suggest five: Upper Class – Elite Represent institutional leadership, heads of multinational corporations, foundations, universities Capitalist elite – owners of lands, stocks and bonds and other assets – wealth derived from what they own Forbes magazine publishes a list of the 400 wealthiest families in America. In 1997, net worth had to be at least $475 million.Bill Gates, in that year, had net worth pf 39.8 billion. Of all the wealth represented on the Forbes list, more than half is inherited. Newly acquired wealth, nouveau riche, have vast amounts of money but not often accepted into “old money” circles.
Upper Middle Class Represent scientific and technical knowledge – engineers, accountants, lawyers, architects, university faculty, managers and directors of public and private organizations. Have both high incomes and high social prestige. Well-educated. Difficult to define a “middle class” (i.e. upper middle, middle middle and lower middle) probably the largest class group in the United States – because being middle class is more that just income, about lifestyles and resources, etc.
Lower Middle Class Clerical-administrative Provide support for professionals Engage in data collection., record-keeping Paralegals.\, bank tellers, sales Blue-collar workers in skilled trades
Working Class Craft workers Laborers in factories Restaurant workers Nursing home staff Repair shops, garages Delivery services
Poor Working poor – work full-time at wages below poverty line Social services Underclass
Nobody here (okay, just a few people here) are shouting "I can't be upper class because of my cost of living!" or "I can't be upper class because I have student loans!" Likewise, nobody is saying "Because I am not in what many scholars consider to be the upper class, that means I am struggling/that means I am not wealthy/that I am in the same position that most people in America are." No, some of us (and some scholars) think that "upper class" is something highly unattainable even by very wealthy people because there is more to it than just earning $600,000 a year as a surgeon -- even though the surgeon is clearly extraordinarily well off. That's it.
Let’s take a guy — call him Hank — who built a successful auto-repair business and expanded it to 30 locations, and now his stake in the business is worth $100 million. He is not just in the 1%; he’s in the top fraction of the 1% — but he’s not part of the new upper class. He went to a second-tier state university, or maybe he didn’t complete college at all. He grew up in a working-class or middle-class home and married a woman who didn’t complete college. He now lives in a neighborhood with other rich people, but they’re mostly other people who got rich the same way he did. (The new upper class considers the glitzy mansions in his suburb to be déclassé.) He has a lot of money, but he doesn’t have power or influence over national culture, politics or economy, nor does he even have any particular influence over the culture, politics or economy of the city where he lives. He’s just rich.
The new upper class is different. It consists of the people who run the country. By “the people who run the country,” I mean two sets of people. The first is the small set of people — well under 100,000, by a rigorous definition — who are responsible for the films and television shows you watch, the news you see and read, the success (or failure) of the nation’s leading corporations and financial institutions and the jurisprudence, legislation and regulations produced by government. The second is the broader set, numbering a few million people, who hold comparable positions of influence in the nation’s major cities.
He's a fucking racist who says blacks and Latinos are genetically inferior to whites. And you know, that women and the poors are also genetically inferior. Let's look at another fun quote from him on "class." LOL forever at using that piece of shit to illustrate your point.
“Try to imagine a … presidential candidate saying in front of the cameras, ‘One reason that we still have poverty in the United States is that a lot of poor people are born lazy.’ You cannot imagine it because that kind of thing cannot be said. And yet this unimaginable statement merely implies that when we know the complete genetic story, it will turn out that the population below the poverty line in the United States has a configuration of the relevant genetic makeup that is significantly different from the configuration of the population above the poverty line. This is not unimaginable. It is almost certainly true.”
Let’s take a guy — call him Hank — who built a successful auto-repair business and expanded it to 30 locations, and now his stake in the business is worth $100 million. He is not just in the 1%; he’s in the top fraction of the 1% — but he’s not part of the new upper class. He went to a second-tier state university, or maybe he didn’t complete college at all. He grew up in a working-class or middle-class home and married a woman who didn’t complete college. He now lives in a neighborhood with other rich people, but they’re mostly other people who got rich the same way he did. (The new upper class considers the glitzy mansions in his suburb to be déclassé.) He has a lot of money, but he doesn’t have power or influence over national culture, politics or economy, nor does he even have any particular influence over the culture, politics or economy of the city where he lives. He’s just rich.
The new upper class is different. It consists of the people who run the country. By “the people who run the country,” I mean two sets of people. The first is the small set of people — well under 100,000, by a rigorous definition — who are responsible for the films and television shows you watch, the news you see and read, the success (or failure) of the nation’s leading corporations and financial institutions and the jurisprudence, legislation and regulations produced by government. The second is the broader set, numbering a few million people, who hold comparable positions of influence in the nation’s major cities.
He's a fucking racist who says blacks and Latinos are genetically inferior to whites. And you know, that women and the poors are also genetically inferior. Let's look at another fun quote from him on "class." LOL forever at using that piece of shit to illustrate your point.
“Try to imagine a … presidential candidate saying in front of the cameras, ‘One reason that we still have poverty in the United States is that a lot of poor people are born lazy.’ You cannot imagine it because that kind of thing cannot be said. And yet this unimaginable statement merely implies that when we know the complete genetic story, it will turn out that the population below the poverty line in the United States has a configuration of the relevant genetic makeup that is significantly different from the configuration of the population above the poverty line. This is not unimaginable. It is almost certainly true.”
This guy's views on women are also extremely cringe-worthy.
Geez. For a bunch of "smart" people some of you are really fucking stupid.
Or we've actually read up on the topic.
I'd highly recommend Class: A Guide Through the American Status System. It is an interesting and fun read. The author (who can be quite tongue-in-cheek) divides the US into 9 classes:
Top Out of Sight - Billionaires and multi-millionaires. The people so wealthy they can afford exclusive levels of privacy. We never hear about them because they don't want us to.
Upper Class - Millionaires, inherited wealth. Those who don't have to work.
Upper Middle - Wealthy surgeons and lawyers, etc. Professionals who couldn't be described as middle class.
Middle Class - The great American majority, sort of.
High Proletarian (or "prole") - Skilled workers but manual labor. Electricians, plumbers, etc. Probably not familiar with the term "proletarian."
Low Prole - Non-skilled of a lower level than mid prole. I suspect these people ask "Would you like fries with that, sir?" as a career.
Destitute - Working and non-working poor.
Bottom Out of Sight - Street people, the most destitute in society. "Out of sight" because they have no voice, influence or voter impact. (They don't vote.)
Let’s take a guy — call him Hank — who built a successful auto-repair business and expanded it to 30 locations, and now his stake in the business is worth $100 million. He is not just in the 1%; he’s in the top fraction of the 1% — but he’s not part of the new upper class. He went to a second-tier state university, or maybe he didn’t complete college at all. He grew up in a working-class or middle-class home and married a woman who didn’t complete college. He now lives in a neighborhood with other rich people, but they’re mostly other people who got rich the same way he did. (The new upper class considers the glitzy mansions in his suburb to be déclassé.) He has a lot of money, but he doesn’t have power or influence over national culture, politics or economy, nor does he even have any particular influence over the culture, politics or economy of the city where he lives. He’s just rich.
The new upper class is different. It consists of the people who run the country. By “the people who run the country,” I mean two sets of people. The first is the small set of people — well under 100,000, by a rigorous definition — who are responsible for the films and television shows you watch, the news you see and read, the success (or failure) of the nation’s leading corporations and financial institutions and the jurisprudence, legislation and regulations produced by government. The second is the broader set, numbering a few million people, who hold comparable positions of influence in the nation’s major cities.
How many social classes are there in the United States? Disagreement within the field on both the number and the composition of these classes. Many sociologists suggest five: Upper Class – Elite Represent institutional leadership, heads of multinational corporations, foundations, universities Capitalist elite – owners of lands, stocks and bonds and other assets – wealth derived from what they own Forbes magazine publishes a list of the 400 wealthiest families in America. In 1997, net worth had to be at least $475 million.Bill Gates, in that year, had net worth pf 39.8 billion. Of all the wealth represented on the Forbes list, more than half is inherited. Newly acquired wealth, nouveau riche, have vast amounts of money but not often accepted into “old money” circles.
Upper Middle Class Represent scientific and technical knowledge – engineers, accountants, lawyers, architects, university faculty, managers and directors of public and private organizations. Have both high incomes and high social prestige. Well-educated. Difficult to define a “middle class” (i.e. upper middle, middle middle and lower middle) probably the largest class group in the United States – because being middle class is more that just income, about lifestyles and resources, etc.
Lower Middle Class Clerical-administrative Provide support for professionals Engage in data collection., record-keeping Paralegals.\, bank tellers, sales Blue-collar workers in skilled trades
Working Class Craft workers Laborers in factories Restaurant workers Nursing home staff Repair shops, garages Delivery services Poor Working poor – work full-time at wages below poverty line Social services Underclass
Nobody here (okay, just a few people here) are shouting "I can't be upper class because of my cost of living!" or "I can't be upper class because I have student loans!" Likewise, nobody is saying "Because I am not in what many scholars consider to be the upper class, that means I am struggling/that means I am not wealthy/that I am in the same position that most people in America are." No, some of us (and some scholars) think that "upper class" is something highly unattainable even by very wealthy people because there is more to it than just earning $600,000 a year as a surgeon -- even though the surgeon is clearly extraordinarily well off. That's it.
To all of the bolded - a lot of expletives are threatening to spew forth from my fingers. How fucking arrogant can you get? There are a lot of very smart, even, GASP, educated, poor and lower middle/working class people out there. This fuckery is just insulting.
I think there's such a thing as being TOO elitist. I'd hate to think that unless you're a white Christian man descended from northern or Western European ancestry, you couldn't possibly be considered part of the elite.
That may be who runs our country NOW, but it's icky to dismiss anyone else who has worked him or herself up to top of the income or wealth ladder as "new money" and therefore unworthy of having a voice. What if we replaced "Hank" with "Shlomo," "Salil," "Sung" or "Jose?" At what point do you move from "just rich" to part of the elite? Obviously it's when other elite people (who have an interest in keeping their group small) perceive you as such. But the perception of where that line is seems to be rooted in some of our uglier history.
Surely we aren't actually referring to people as "proles" now? There has to be some better terminology.
That depends are we in 1984?
This whole discussion is sick and I've tried to stay out of it. Anyone who thinks $30k=$75k=$150k is an idiot. Anyone who argues $75k is just like $150k is out of touch. $150k is generally upper income. Please accept that $150k+ living in a posh place with frequent international travel and a prestigious job is upper class. Holy crap upper class people might still have to work (even as a surgeon or lawyer) and not all be the family wealth inheriting elite, but that does NOT make you middle class.
FWIW I'm upper income for my area or at least above the middle fifth. I'm grateful for the opportunities I have and aware of my privileged position. Anyone who thinks that $150k+ is middle class should be required to volunteer at a food pantry or something to get a dose of perspective.