Haredim refuse to sit next to women on El Al flight, causing '11-hour-nightmare'
El Al passengers on New York-Israel flight claim Haredi men refused to sit next to women, even offering secular passengers money to switch seats, delaying flight's departure.
Itay Blumenthal
Passengers aboard an El Al flight from New York's JKF airport to Israel claim that hundreds of ultra-Orthodox passengers demanded that they trade places with them before takeoff, saying they cannot sit next to women.
"It was an 11-hour long nightmare," one of the passengers summed up her experience.
On Wednesday morning, the eve of Rosh Hashanah, thousands of Israeli and Jewish passengers landed in Israel, including scores of ultra-Orthodox Jews who decided to celebrate the Jewish New Year in the Holy Land.
However, things didn't go so smoothly on one El Al flight carrying a large group of haredim, as well as secular Jews, that departed from New York's JFK and landed in Israel at 5 am Wednesday.
According to the passengers who were on the plane, their fellow ultra-Orthodox travelers refused to sit next to women prior to the takeoff, which not only delayed the flight, but caused actual chaos to ensue on the plane.
"People stood in the aisles and refused to go forward," said Amit Ben-Natan, a passenger who was on board the plane.
"Although everyone had tickets with seat numbers that they purchased in advance, they asked us to trade seats with them, and even offered to pay money, since they cannot sit next to a woman. It was obvious that the plane won't take off as long as they keep standing in the aisles."
Passengers claimed that though the El Al flight crew informed them they do not have to agree to a switch, the flight's captain said over the PA system that the flight would not take off as long as people were standing.
"This is completely inconsiderate of the non-haredi travelers. I don't know many airlines that would allow their passengers to act like that," said Bar Natan.
Galit, another traveler on the flight, said the ultra-orthodox passengers suggested she and her spouse split up to better accommodate their desired seating arrangements: "Why should I agree to switch places?" she said with anger.
After she refused, the haredi man seated next to her conceded, but it was only temporary: "I ended up sitting next to a haredi man who jumped out of his seat the moment we had finished taking off and proceeded to stand in the isle."
It seems that after takeoff a large portion of the haredi travelers took to the isles to pray which, according to their fellow travelers, crowded the isles and caused the flight to be unbearable.
"I went to the bathroom and it was a mission impossible, the noise was endless," Galit said.
In response, El Al promised to look into the issue, saying "El Al does everything it can to give its passengers the best possible service year-round. These days bring with them a peak in air traffic to Israel, and our crews on the ground and in the air are doing the best they can to address the needs and requests of all our travelers while trying not to fall behind schedule.
"The company will examine the complaints and if some passengers are found to have acted out of line the company will examine its future steps."
Post by delawarejen on Sept 26, 2014 14:51:21 GMT -5
I've flown El Al before, but I was seated next to women or girls on both legs of the flight. I guess I didn't really think about it before, but I guess it could have been a problem. (The woman next to me was seated separately from her husband, but she had to sit behind the bulkhead because of her baby anyway, so I was never sure if the separation was intentional or not).
They really can't SIT next to a woman? Not just, not-touch a woman? Like what is the appropriate distance?
Nope. Unmarried people of opposite sex can't interact. There are actually female-only taxi services opening in parts of NY so Haredi women can take cabs driven by female drivers. They've co-opted public transit routes in certain areas too. This is just Wiki but it explains it pretty well en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism#Gender_separation
Ultra-Orthodox reps ask airline to operate special flights that would include separation between men and women, male flight attendants and no movies
Kobi Nahshoni Published: 01.12.09, 14:08 / Israel Jewish Scene
Israel's largest airline company is currently in negotiations with representatives of the ultra-Orthodox sector on operating special flights for the haredi public with full separation between men and women, male flight attendants and no movies during flights.
Also on Buses Haredim plan kosher bus line to Western Wall / Uri Gilhar Members of extreme ultra-Orthodox stream collecting money to establish new service offering complete separation between men and women, to compete with Egged's buses Full Story
Several months ago, the "Rabbinic Committee for the Sanctity of the Shabbat" and the "Council for the Purity of the Camp" approached El Al and asked that the company operate special flights during the sector's busy seasons, starting this Passover.
The rabbis told the airline that during Pesach tens of thousands of yeshiva students studying in Israel return to the United States to visit their families, while many haredi families arrive from abroad to spend the holiday in Israel. They demanded that the company introduce "kosher flights" that would be suited for the needs of the ultra-Orthodox public.
El Al initially declined the request, explaining that the move was not financially viable, but later decided to allow the separate flights. El Al CEO Haim Romano said in response: "We're not talking about regular flights; any group of people can rent a plane and adjust the conditions to the passengers' requirements."
Head of the "Rabbinic Committee for the Sanctity of the Shabbat" Rabbi Yitzhak Goldknopf told Ynet: "We reached an 'in-principle agreement with El Al CEO Haim Romano regarding the special conditions, and we consider it to be highly serious and credible.
"An agreement between two sides always overpowers technical and bureaucratic obstacles. I think this move would prove worthy for the company, and not only on the financial level."
Goldknopf added: "We congratulate El Al's heads for their willingness to accommodate the needs of the haredi public and for supporting this initiative.
In a conversation with Ynet, Romano stressed that "there would be no discrimination and haredi passengers would not pay less." He said that the company already operates special flights for various groups, and is considering doing so ahead of Passover.
I think it's kind of shitty to be all WHY SHOULD I MOVE in the face of accommodating someone's religion.
Why? If it's something they all paid for equally, and had assignments ahead of time...why does someone's religion trump that? They ALL knew ahead of time where they'd be sitting.
Shrug. I don't dispute that they should have made arrangements beforehand. I just think it's kind of shitty to dig in your heels over your assigned seat and delay the plane any further. Just sit wherethefuckever and go.
But couldn't that be said of the men themselves? Not to mention that they had to have known there were going to be women on the plane.
I think it's kind of shitty to be all WHY SHOULD I MOVE in the face of accommodating someone's religion.
Why? If it's something they all paid for equally, and had assignments ahead of time...why does someone's religion trump that? They ALL knew ahead of time where they'd be sitting.
I end up having to talk to an airline worker at check in to get my seat adjusted pretty much every time I fly with my kids despite making sure we are seated together during my initial booking. It is very possible that these people made some effort to sit together when booking and that it didn't shake out that way when it came time to check in at the airport.
I think it's kind of shitty to be all WHY SHOULD I MOVE in the face of accommodating someone's religion.
I think it's shitty they didn't ask for special accommodation before getting on the plane.
Agree.
I mean there's a 50/50 chance they're going to be seated next to a woman. If their religion dictates that they not sit next to a woman and there were that many of them travkng, it absolutely should have been addressed beforehand.
I could see being accommodating to a few men, but it looks like many many men. They sound like they wanted a full private experience from the praying in the aisles, to demanding seat changes, etc. That's just rude and wrong , IMO.
No one is saying you can't take someone's religion into account when serving them, but it sounds like this went beyond simple accommodations.
Shrug. I don't dispute that they should have made arrangements beforehand. I just think it's kind of shitty to dig in your heels over your assigned seat and delay the plane any further. Just sit wherethefuckever and go.
But couldn't that be said of the men themselves? Not to mention that they had to have known there were going to be women on the plane.
Exactly. If they wanted an exclusive flight, hire a charter.
I wouldn't cater to a group who abuses women and calls it religion.
Post by sugarglider on Sept 26, 2014 15:23:16 GMT -5
Maybe they were inexperienced flyers who assumed an Israeli airline would be Shomer Negiah. Honestly, the airline should list that option next to dietary restrictions to prevent this type of thing since it's somewhat foreseeable.
Why? If it's something they all paid for equally, and had assignments ahead of time...why does someone's religion trump that? They ALL knew ahead of time where they'd be sitting.
I end up having to talk to an airline worker at check in to get my seat adjusted pretty much every time I fly with my kids despite making sure we are seated together during my initial booking. It is very possible that these people made some effort to sit together when booking and that it didn't shake out that way when it came time to check in at the airport.
I thought that the article said that this wasn't that type of flight, though. That you picked out seats before and that's where they ended up being.
In any case, my belief that men and women can sit next to each other for 11 hours without risking eternal damnation (even without TOUCHING) is JUST as deeply held as theirs that they cannot...so I'd say we're even on that point. So I'd say that our previously settled seat assignments would be the deciding factor in the argument.
I just don't see how accommodating hundreds (!!!) of men is a reasonable accommodation on that kind of flight.
This is a plane, not a church. If they needed special arrangements, they should have informed the airline when booking.
I would not have moved either.
I don't dispute that it was crappy not to make special arrangements. I'm saying I think it's equally crappy to, in the face of the request, refuse and further delay things.
If it's one or two people, OK, maybe. But this was hundreds.
This is a plane, not a church. If they needed special arrangements, they should have informed the airline when booking.
I would not have moved either.
I don't dispute that it was crappy not to make special arrangements. I'm saying I think it's equally crappy to, in the face of the request, refuse and further delay things.
I can't get behind this. The way to stop further delays is to kick their asses off the plane. The Haredi have been AWFUL to women (and other minorities) in public situations a lot. There is no reason they should continue to get away with this behavior. Acquiescing only permits them to continue with their behavior. They all should have been kicked off the flight for disrupting it, not allowed to bully and badger their way in to seats they wanted.
Post by penguingrrl on Sept 26, 2014 15:40:50 GMT -5
The rest of us shouldn't have to rearrange our lives to accommodate extremist religious beliefs. And sitting apart from your spouse on a long flight because some man can't risk bumping elbows with you is an absurd thing to even ask.
Yeah, I hate to say it but if I had to move, and be separated from my traveling companion for a multi-hour overseas flight because some guys didn't want to have to sit next to me because touching my female person would somehow soil their souls, yeah, I am dragging my hands across a bunch of black suited shoulders on the way to the bathroom. Yup yup yup.
And I would probably sing some hymns to drown out the praying too.
I have so little tolerance for people trying to bully others with their religion. That is the BS I grew up with and now that I am an adult, I don't deal with it anymore. Because that is what theses guys were religious bullies. Given the reports that they crowded the aisles making it difficult for the other passengers with their praying versus quietly praying in their seats makes me feel even stronger about pushing back against their request.
I think it's kind of shitty to be all WHY SHOULD I MOVE in the face of accommodating someone's religion.
Hobby Lobby agrees with you.
Their religion is accommodated everywhere. It doesn't fall on anyone to accommodate them, and it sure as fuck doesn't fall on women to make men feel more comfortable. Maybe they should book charters to insulate them from the wickedness of women.
They should have have had their righteous asses air marshaled off the plane. Two folks got tossed for a knee defender and a splashed glass of water. I think harassment of passengers and singling out female ones exceeds that incident.
I think it's kind of shitty to be all WHY SHOULD I MOVE in the face of accommodating someone's religion.
I wouldn't want to fly separated from my husband. That just wouldn't happen. Was this one group traveling together? It sounds like it was, but I guess that could be a misunderstanding. They don't spell it out. If so, I don't understand why, if the group was so large, they didn't book the flight well in advance to book seats together, so that the scope of this problem would be limited? Whenever I've flown with groups, a travel agent has booked the flight and we've all been seated together. It sounds like they waited too long to book their flight, then expected everyone else to shuffle around them. That would have been total chaos even if every passenger agreed to work with them. It already takes a good 30 minutes to load a plane.
I don't dispute that it was crappy not to make special arrangements. I'm saying I think it's equally crappy to, in the face of the request, refuse and further delay things.
I can't get behind this. The way to stop further delays is to kick their asses off the plane. The Haredi have been AWFUL to women (and other minorities) in public situations a lot. There is no reason they should continue to get away with this behavior. Acquiescing only permits them to continue with their behavior. They all should have been kicked off the flight for disrupting it, not allowed to bully and badger their way in to seats they wanted.
Yeah, why reward them for disrupting air traffic? I think LHC is just septimussing with us.