Post by tacosforlife on Sept 26, 2014 15:59:54 GMT -5
For a quick jaunt from NYC to Boston, I might be willing to switch in the sake of just getting there. But this was an 11-hour flight. One woman was asked to split up from her husband. Fuck no. I'm not sitting next to a random for 11 hours if I have the option to sit next to my husband.
Shrug. I don't dispute that they should have made arrangements beforehand. I just think it's kind of shitty to dig in your heels over your assigned seat and delay the plane any further. Just sit wherethefuckever and go.
Ok generally I'm in favor of just going with the flow because most things aren't a big deal. But this situation was different in that there where a lot of them asking for this accommodation. Rearranging a lot of people isn't so simple, especially if you're flying with a child or other person that might need your assistance. An airplane isn't the appropriate time to play music chairs with a couple hundred people. It seems that they handled the situation very poorly and rudely.
This isn’t the first time the Israeli airline has run into trouble with ultra-Orthodox men, also called “Haredim.”
Haaretz reported that in 2012 El Al noticed an increasing number of Haredi men asking to switch seats to avoid sitting next to women. Large groups of up to 20 would try to reserve seats in blocks to avoid it. They would also approach female passengers asking to trade seats before takeoff. An American woman sued, claiming an El Al flight attendant moved her to the back of the plane to accommodate Haredi men.
Israeli ultra-Orthodox communities have also lobbied for gender segregation on buses, at checkout counters and in other public spaces. Sitting next to women isn’t the only issue for ultra-Orthodox airplane passengers.
Airlines have also had to deal with ultra-Orthodox men of priestly descent called “kohanim” sealing themselves in plastic bags used to transport dead bodies to avoid ritual impurity when flying over a cemetery. According to Haredi Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, sealing oneself in a plastic bag is the solution to this problem.
El Al initially allowed the practice before banning it in 2001 due to safety considerations. But in 2002, an El Al flight had to return to Ben Gurion airport after an ultra-Orthodox passenger insisted on wearing a plastic bag. And last year, another ultra-Orthodox traveler drew attention after a photo of the man shrouding himself in plastic on an airplane was posted on Reddit and circulated online.
In-flight movies are also a problem for the Haredim. In 2008, ultra-Orthodox passengers caused a disturbance on an El Al flight to Kiev when, according to Haaretz, witnesses said the men began shouting and trying to stop the movie screens from unfolding because they objected to a film. “It was a pretty frightening sight,” one passenger said.
****** I think the airline knows that many Haredim passengers use its services, and that issues regularly arise as a result. The airline could accommodate them by offering special flights or seating preferences. It's chosen not to do so, presumably because they've decided it is more profitable to let a small group of people inconvenience other customers rather than offer guaranteed Haradim seating on certain flights.
Honestly, if this were just some random flight from NYC to London on American Airlines, and the passenger and airline approached me to ask if I'd switch seats, I'd treat it like any other person requesting a special accommodation - someone with an allergy or medical condition or whatever - and try to evaluate the situation reasonably and be a decent human being about it.
But that's not what this is. This airline has a regular customer base in need of a particular accommodation - one for which arrangements can easily be done in advance. They know it causes regular problems. But they aren't dealing with it. Instead, they are just passing the buck on to their customers, by delaying their flights and OKing the seat barter system.
Fuck that shit.
If I were a passenger inconvenienced by this, I'd be fucking pissed. In this instance, I would refuse, not because I want to see these people's religious rights violated, but because I don't think El Al should be able to pawn off the responsibility of customer service on their customers. If people move their seats, El Al can keep on ignoring the problem since it's clearly working itself out.
The airline either needs to take steps to accommodate them without inconveniencing everyone else, even if it's an expensive fix (letting seats go empty, for example), or it needs to have a clear policy that Haradim beliefs will not be accommodated, and those who bother other passengers regarding the seat arrangement will be escorted off.
I had a friend that was a flight attendant for them back in the 90's. She said she had passengers that had issues interacting with females, particularly females on their period.
I hate to make light of someone's religion, but honestly if I dealt with them inconveniencing my flight so much, I would probably walk down the aisle with a tampon in my hand on my way to the bathroom multiple times throughout the flight.
Post by doobeedoo on Sept 26, 2014 16:28:58 GMT -5
Two words: charter plane.
But seriously, they should have been kicked off. That is simply unacceptable behavior for a secular airline. I have lots of other flameful thoughts, but I will just leave it at that.
But seriously, they should have been kicked off. That is simply unacceptable behavior for a secular airline. I have lots of other flameful thoughts, but I will just leave it at that.
Here's the thing--you can't really talk about El Al in the same way that you can talk about most any other airline in the world, since it is subsidized by Israel (at least for its security), which is not a secular nation. I think that muddies the waters.
Good point, but Israel isn't an ultra-orthodox nation, right? So, even the government would view this as problematic behavior, no? Either way, I am making a mental note not to take El Al Airlines in the near future.
FTR, I'm fine with the bag thing since ultimately it would only hurt/inconvenience/kill themselves.
IDK man. I mostly agree with you, but I'm still messed up from watching a guy fall through railing at a mall when I was 5-6. I get sweaty and heart racy if I have to go anywhere near the railing or one of my people is near it.
I had a friend that was a flight attendant for them back in the 90's. She said she had passengers that had issues interacting with females, particularly females on their period. ?
How would they ever know this though? I certainly don't advertise to ransoms that am on my period.
I have accommodated seat switching requests before, but not always. Moving from and exit row or aisle to a middle seat? Probably not. An 11-hour flight with my husband, also probably not.
Good point, but Israel isn't an ultra-orthodox nation, right? So, even the government would view this as problematic behavior, no? Either way, I am making a mental note not to take El Al Airlines in the near future.
Ehh...sort of. There's a big divide internally because many Israelis don't like the governments placating of the ultra-orthodox element. The link might explain it better. I know haaretz is kind of left-leaning, but I don't think the above statement is particularly polarizing.
Am I the only one who wouldn't mind being apart from my husband on a flight? He never brings anything to do (or he brings a book, then decides he doesn't feel like reading it), and then spends the entire flight looking over my shoulder at whatever I'm doing and sighing to get my attention so we can talk. Maybe I should book a flight on this airline. I'd get $50 and the joy of watching him entertain himself by observing his Saran-wrapped seat mate.
Honestly, if this were just some random flight from NYC to London on American Airlines, and the passenger and airline approached me to ask if I'd switch seats, I'd treat it like any other person requesting a special accommodation - someone with an allergy or medical condition or whatever - and try to evaluate the situation reasonably and be a decent human being about it.
It doesn't make anyone an indecent person to say no to such a request. A religious preference invoking misogyny is not a medical condition, and I don't think anyone is called on to bear that patiently.
I mean, yes, the airline should get its shit together. I just disagree that in another context, assholery should be treated the same as an allergy.