This week I had a parent teacher conference for BBT, who is 6 months younger than K, and it was stuff like "she is very soft spoken in class, she loves singing the continent song and working with the maps, washing fruits and vegetables is her favorite, she is working on not licking the knife after making herself ants on a log."
See, that makes sense to me.
But then again, for me Pre-K (in my head) is really young because we have a junior kindergarten program (mostly 4 year old, could be 3 when they start theoretically though) and then senior kindergarten program as well…anyways, in my head pre-k is super young…after reading more of the thread I realized how old K would be.
Regardless, the report was completely not age appropriate and covered topics that, at best, should be discussed in person and with qualified people.
edit: to clarify…I thought we were talking about a 2-3 year old, not a 3-4 year old, but as I write this I am not sure that would even change my feelings that much.
Dd had her first report at 3.25 years old. It was three pages. It includes several sections such as emotional, physical, and academic skills (they have slightly different names). Each section has around ten skills that are assessed from developing to exceeds expectations. Then there is a narrative that accompanies each section. It's a bit over the top but really informative. And I like that they have a formal document to track over time that is official and part of her record so we can compare over the years.
But then again, for me Pre-K (in my head) is really young because we have a junior kindergarten program (mostly 4 year old, could be 3 when they start theoretically though) and then senior kindergarten program as well…anyways, in my head pre-k is super young…after reading more of the thread I realized how old K would be.
Regardless, the report was completely not age appropriate and covered topics that, at best, should be discussed in person and with qualified people.
edit: to clarify…I thought we were talking about a 2-3 year old, not a 3-4 year old, but as I write this I am not sure that would even change my feelings that much.
Dd had her first report at 3.25 years old. It was three pages. It includes several sections such as emotional, physical, and academic skills (they have slightly different names). Each section has around ten skills that are assessed from developing to exceeds expectations. Then there is a narrative that accompanies each section. It's a bit over the top but really informative. And I like that they have a formal document to track over time that is official and part of her record so we can compare over the years.
wow.
In mid JK parents come in for a classroom observation and there is some goal setting done with the teacher. Their reports (done in Feb and June) are just a paragraph on their progress and then checkmarks of for some benchmarks. I don't know much about it honestly because I never taught K and my first (and only to date) school as VP has no kindie program, we start in grade 1 because we offer a specialized program. I will have to learn ALL about the kindie program when I switch schools.
I just think we need to put preschool on par with K-12. Meaning every public school must offer a free preschool program that is staffed by well qualified professionals that affords the pre-k kids and teachers all the same rights that k+ kids and teachers get. There can be private pre schools too but there needs to be a publicly supported minimum schooling that all kids have access to that starts earlier than age 5.
If it's not mandated, though, there will never be funding for it. And the majority of the board was not down with a mandate. We had this conversation a few months ago.
I don't know what you mean by mandate? A mandate that public schools provide preschool implicitly means that there is funding for it. Or mandate that kids attend? If that's the case, in California anyway, K isn't mandated. The only mandate is that schools provide K. And K is funded in CA. So I'm not following this train of thought re "mandates."
I don't know what you mean by mandate? A mandate that public schools provide preschool implicitly means that there is funding for it. Or mandate that kids attend? If that's the case, in California anyway, K isn't mandated. The only mandate is that schools provide K. And K is funded in CA. So I'm not following this train of thought re "mandates."
I think my logic was wrong, so apologies. I believe the thread went along the lines of, "if it's not mandated that kids attend, it will never happen because states won't voluntarily allocate the funds for a full-day program". As it is, K in many places isn't full day, right?
I don't know about full day K but I think that the above thinking is faulty. K isn't mandated for 5 year olds in CA. The only mandate is that all elementary schools have to have a K program. It is fully funded by the state. I mean we are getting stuck in the weeds here. The point is if society wanted to, society could institute public preschool a la public elementary school. And I support this as a public policy objective. I mean if you really want to get hung up on education finance issues, just throw in some state specific constitutional language in our new laws that mandate minimum state spending on preschool programs a la CA's "prop 98" guaranteed minimums for ed funding.
I just think we need to put preschool on par with K-12. Meaning every public school must offer a free preschool program that is staffed by well qualified professionals that affords the pre-k kids and teachers all the same rights as k+ kids and teachers get. There can be private pre schools too but there needs to be a publicly supported minimum schooling that all kids have access to that starts earlier than age 5.
that doesn't eliminate shitty teachers. I wish it were that easy. My kids' first preschool was "free" (public) and the teacher was certified with a masters in education plus had over a decade of teaching experience. She was terrible. I didn't post about it here but it was bad. Taking educational classes and passing certification tests doesn't make a shitty teacher a good one. Nor does a school creating a good structure for a particular class or program eliminate bad teachers. If you're arguing that the way we train and hire teachers in this country needs major improvement then I agree.
RE: SBP. I would have found it impossible to remain positive and calm. Someone else would have had to impersonate me in order for that to happen, even from the beginning before there even was a meeting scheduled. I don't think it matters so much how well or badly the meeting went. It's not a match, between K/SBP and this teacher. It was always unlikely that the teacher would completely reverse course and admit her focus was inappropriate. And even if she did I wouldn't want my kids to continue in a classroom with a teacher who needed such a steep learning curve. I totally agree with SBP's decision to find a new class or school. That made such a difference for us.
I just think we need to put preschool on par with K-12. Meaning every public school must offer a free preschool program that is staffed by well qualified professionals that affords the pre-k kids and teachers all the same rights that k+ kids and teachers get. There can be private pre schools too but there needs to be a publicly supported minimum schooling that all kids have access to that starts earlier than age 5.
If it's not mandated, though, there will never be funding for it. And the majority of the board was not down with a mandate. We had this conversation a few months ago.
we do kids a disservice by not having it mandated.
Also, wtf are the chances he would have ALL those diagnoses? I feel like she was just pulling terms out of her ass.
Also, how can anybody think this would be received.
Also, I had a teacher do something somewhat (but not nearly as bad) similar this week and I nearly LOST it. She still doesn't know how pissed I am. I am trying to decide how to deal with it. Without throwing things.
ok. Like I said, I wasn't at the conference. I wasn't being negative or combative.
I'm sorry. That was over kill with you. I am just firmly in mother bear mode. It was all I could do to remain even toned and on point and I left there just wanting to flip shit over and light it on fire.
So she sent you a report suggesting he might have all manner of possible diagnoses and was surprised you had him evaluated? I guess I don't understand that from any point of view. Whether you think he may have those issues or that he doesn't, isn't that the obvious response when faced with a list of things like that? To talk to someone - an expert - who can help you figure that out for sure?
What did she expect you would do with that info? Just say okay? Ignore it? Accept her diagnosis and do nothing?
She claims she was not attempting to suggest a diagnosis even though she lists in her report that: He has difficulty focusing He talks to himself His attention span is short During group activities he appears to be thinking about other things He should have his language evaluated (she can help us find a doctor) He has a defiant disposition He does not make eye contact He does not like to be physically touched During group activities he looks around and sometimes lies down. He cannot repeat back sentences and phrases.
I asked her if she really did not expect that list of issues to be received as suggesting a serious serious pathology and specifically autism, adhd, speech and language delay, processing disorder and possibly ODD. She said, I was not trying to diagnose him. Incidentally, I do not observe K to have ANY problems with eye contact or physical affection and I see so much of this talks to himself and looks around stuff as being totally developmentally normal behavior that will extinguish with positive reinforcement and an age appropriate preschool environment.
I would absolutely assume that list was meant to imply a speech delay and/or ASD and ADHD. I'm hypersensitive to this bc my kids do have a speech delay. If a teacher had concerns about a further impairment I would be livid to first hear about it in that kind of report, and written in a way that is basically only 2 or 3 items short of making a dx a fait accompli. Also here you go: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328124554.htm
I obviously wasn't there, so I don't know how it went down. But from your account it sounds like you went in guns blazing and she really didn't stand a chance.
Did she handle it well? Heck no. But I would have been quite taken aback if I were attacked that way. I would have (and have) immediately ended the conference and suggest (politely) we need an admin to join us. If a parent starts the conference ready for a fight, the teacher stands no chance.
If that isn't how it went down, then I understand. But it sounds like she was backed into a corner and instead of ended the conference, which she should of done, she handled it terribly.
**Even when teaching 8th through 12th grade, I would never directly answer the question "do you think my kid is smart" so I imagine a 3 year old teacher would not, either.
eta: I fully agree her expectations for 3 year old behavior are completely off. I would not want her teaching my kid, either.
I started the conference by saying that I would like to keep things as positive as possible and to that end would just like to have her offer one positive.statement of skills or positive impression she has about my son. She was unable to do it on the THREE separate attempts I made to direct the conversation in a positive way. I do not give a shit not a shit at all what people's impressions of this conversation were. This woman, without a preliminary phone call or correspondence, sent an official report home that suggesting 3 year old was autistic with ODD and ADHD. Also, processing disorder and language delay. The fact that I didn't.throw down an D bomb was more diplomacy than she frankly deserved. The fact I actually attempted to steer the conference in a positive direction (my pediatrician actually suggested this specific opening question) is fucking saintly of me. Form your impressions as you will. But I will shut your shit down if it is harmful to my kids.
This is insane, seriously. During an IEP meeting before Babycakes had his diagnosis, one of the special education teachers threw out Autism as a possibility and then immediately apologized, and the principal apologized and basically everyone else in the room was like "Don't even THINK about this right now. We cannot make this determination."
She has NO QUALIFICATIONS to throw around developmental delays and diagnoses like this. How fucking horrible.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Yeah, I might make up that list and discuss the biggest issues with a parent, and I might make a "diagnosis"...IN MY HEAD. I would never suggest to a parent that a student has any sort of an issue because I'm not qualified to make that diagnosis. I can only report what I see, and it doesn't come out as a laundry list of horrible traits. And I teach big kids...
That sucks. I hope the new school is better.
ETA: my 3.5 year old puts herself to bed every night talking to herself. Tonight, she was going on about how "All About That Bass" is about how "it doesn't matter what your body looks like. You are beautiful just the way you are" over and over again. I don't think there is anything wrong with her except verbal diahrrea.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
She claims she was not attempting to suggest a diagnosis even though she lists in her report that: He has difficulty focusing He talks to himself His attention span is short During group activities he appears to be thinking about other things He should have his language evaluated (she can help us find a doctor) He has a defiant disposition He does not make eye contact He does not like to be physically touched During group activities he looks around and sometimes lies down. He cannot repeat back sentences and phrases.
I understand where you are coming from with this teacher being a idiot, I can see why you put no stock in her opinion, and she handled her concerns in an inappropriate manner, but these are all observable behaviors that can be defined and are not a diagnosis. She could conceivably do a formal observational assessment and collect some data as to how often these behaviors occur, in a number of ways, that would make it more legitimate to inform you to get an evaluation. These can be turned into targeted mostly objective behaviors if they are well defined, so that there is high observer agreement if more than one observer is used.
Example: He has difficulty focusing could be changed to (this is a c/p of an observation I just did):
Category Recording Form Date: 10/17/14 Activities: Work Time (Center Time) Time: 10:00 to 10:20 AM Observation Question – What percentage of work time is K actively engaged in one activity out of many choices? Categories and Definitions On-Task behavior and Off-Task behavior – On-task behavior is defined as active participation with peers, teachers, and/or materials at a work station. – Off-Task behavior is defined as wandering around the room or sitting watching others work without participating in the activity.
Data was taken every minute for 20 minutes, marking off if when the observer looked at the child every minute if the behavior was on or off task and then a % was calculated.
This teacher has got to get her sit together and collect some data before going off the deep end and pissing off parents. She is like a book I just mocked at work as being totally ridiculous. I cleaned out my classroom closet of all the professional books that I inherited with the room that no one is ever going to use again.
There was one book of form letters to photocopy for parents and just sign and date on about every topic. My favorite was the 2 half page notes on one page, the top note said "I suspect you child has a learning disability" and had a place to check off what area(s) you think they have an LD in, the bottom note said "I think your child is on drugs" CAN YOU IMAGINE! You get a 1/2 slip of paper home that says your kid is on drugs or has an LD? Can I mail it to K's teacher? I can't take them to the community free pile until Sat.
Post by stephm0188 on Oct 22, 2014 20:52:05 GMT -5
What she did was wrong.
It's been my experience that parents don't challenge the system. Hell, I challenged it last year and the entire team looked taken aback that I called them out on not following the proper procedures. His PT cried during a meeting because I called her out.
You made the right call. She had no right to do that.
It's been my experience that parents don't challenge the system. Hell, I challenged it last year and the entire team looked taken aback that I called them out on not following the proper procedures. His PT cried during a meeting because I called her out.
You made the right call. She had no right to do that.
At some schools, yes. At others...holy hell.
**dealing with some things right now, lol.
I will say that I just pulled up DD's reports from last year. They flat out talked about her speech issues. The first one, before she was recommended for speech therapy, laid out what sounds they noticed she struggled with and noted that she would be screened soon by the speech therapist. The next two reports included comments about speech therapy and what things she needed to work on.
Okay, so one thing.she suggested was that I come observe her class for a day. I said I thought that just simply wouldn't work because K would cling to me and cry when I left.
Thoughts?
I think it depends on if you think there is any chance you are staying.
If you are considering it, then you should go. Is there a way to observe without being right in the middle of things? I know DD is very different when I'm there (clingy) as well.
Okay, so one thing.she suggested was that I come observe her class for a day. I said I thought that just simply wouldn't work because K would cling to me and cry when I left.
Thoughts?
I don't know your kid, obviously, but I don't think it's a terrible plan. I have made that suggestion to parents before and it's gone well (for me and the parent. 8th graders don't love it, nor do they cling to their parents and cry when they leave).
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Okay, so one thing.she suggested was that I come observe her class for a day. I said I thought that just simply wouldn't work because K would cling to me and cry when I left.
Thoughts?
if you can't observe from a window then I would not. I would ask for a recording or for a neutral 3rd party to observe - preferably someone with educational experience that doesn't know K so that he acts the same as he does every other day. I would still quit that class though. I would be so done after that meeting. So done.
I couldn't get from the dialog, is this school private or public? How long has he been going? A month? Since September? There can be a wide range of what is typical or what is not typical. A ton of what you have listed is normal for 3 year old (boys at that too) and if he just started a month in.
I get the mama bear in you, all 3 of my son's are delayed, 2 on the spectrum. I had to pull my son who has moderate Autism out of a private preschool because they didn't have the staff to meet my son's needs and was having me pick him up or have me not bring him in that day if they were short staffed. I had to start services at our public preschool.
I think it wasn't very professional to hit you with this in a negative way. I should of been more in the way of "here is what we can do" such as what would be in an IEP. I know in my school system, they can't say crap about any diagnosis. Only developmental pediatrician can.
Looking at the list of this she commented on - has she ever BEEN around a 3 year old? BEcause really, all of those are things that three year olds do.
The fact that she couldn't give you a single positive thing to say about K makes me think she has either decided she dislikes him, and so can't see anything he does in a positive light, or she tends to ignore the kids and only notices stuff that's bad.
So she sent you a report suggesting he might have all manner of possible diagnoses and was surprised you had him evaluated? I guess I don't understand that from any point of view. Whether you think he may have those issues or that he doesn't, isn't that the obvious response when faced with a list of things like that? To talk to someone - an expert - who can help you figure that out for sure?
What did she expect you would do with that info? Just say okay? Ignore it? Accept her diagnosis and do nothing?
She claims she was not attempting to suggest a diagnosis even though she lists in her report that: He has difficulty focusing He talks to himself His attention span is short During group activities he appears to be thinking about other things He should have his language evaluated (she can help us find a doctor) He has a defiant disposition He does not make eye contact He does not like to be physically touched During group activities he looks around and sometimes lies down. He cannot repeat back sentences and phrases.
I asked her if she really did not expect that list of issues to be received as suggesting a serious serious pathology and specifically autism, adhd, speech and language delay, processing disorder and possibly ODD. She said, I was not trying to diagnose him. Incidentally, I do not observe K to have ANY problems with eye contact or physical affection and I see so much of this talks to himself and looks around stuff as being totally developmentally normal behavior that will extinguish with positive reinforcement and an age appropriate preschool environment.
This whole situation reminds me of a much more extreme example of my daughter's situation in pre-K last year with the head teacher. She mentioned that she was really concerned about DD's language development and gave examples when she wouldn't make eye contact, etc., as well as not having a lot of positive things to say. I think the real issue was that she was intimidated by this teacher whose style did not work well with her. This year she is thriving in kindergarten. It sounds like K is picking up on the fact that the teacher has an issue with him and that is affecting his behavior as well. I'm sorry you're in this situation, but at least K has such a great parent advocate. I hope things get better for you guys.
Post by speckledfrog on Oct 22, 2014 23:17:48 GMT -5
Holy shit. As a former preschool teacher and assistant director, I am aghast. Where was the director in all of this? There wasn't a report I ever sent home that wasn't looked over by the director, especially if we suspected atypical development. I wouldn't bother observing.
I know I'm only offering anecdotes here, but I just wanted to say that so much of what she is describing is how DS was at that age. I think it sounds normal for a lot of kids that age. Although, I did notice a difference in DS in how he preferred to play by himself, didn't like other kids or people he didn't really know talking to him or touching him, or making eye contact with strangers or people he didn't know well. He was a completely normal kid around MH, me and some of the family. However, with MH or me around other people he just clammed up and became clingy. I put him in Kindergarten this year at 4, he turned 5 a couple weeks after. I was so worried because of all those things. He has thrived though. He is almost a completely different kid.
My main point here is that your DS is only 3. I can't imagine a teacher trying to evaluate a kid based on her criteria at that age. The things she is requiring seem like something a kindergarten teacher would be expecting, and I'll be honest, there are some kids in DS's class that are struggling with exactly what this teacher is describing.
I think you should keep going with your gut (and apparent knowledge) on this. Kids are born with their own personalities.
Lol that she had made the leap from preschool teacher to child psychologist. Get over yourself, hor.
Sorry, asdfjkl. I admire your restraint. Good luck finding a new school for K--hopefully you land in a warm, enriching place that brings out the best in your sweet boy.