Question: WRT relationships to other women, do you feel like you can be more authentically yourself (stereotype fitting or not) with other black women or do you feel the same judgment about stereotypes from within as without?
I have had great relationships with women of other races and for the most part I am comfortable being myself. I would say the only strain is that I do have to address some unconscious biases or forgive and forget some things to maintain the friendship. But if we are honest you have to do that with any relationship. The nature of the items you get over may be a little different at times.
Post by jeaniebueller on Mar 13, 2015 13:38:03 GMT -5
This post has been really informative to me. I guess I had never thought about intersectional feminism at length before (privilege, I know), but I appreciate reading these responses.
Post by omgzombies on Mar 13, 2015 13:42:25 GMT -5
What the hell happened in here. I sneak away for a nap, and I come back to find a shit show!
Regardless, thank you for the other perspective. It's awful and painful, but thank you for sharing. I just want to give everyone a hug and and say you are a worthwhile person and deserve both agency and respect. Forgive me, for I get very kumbaya when talking about these issues. If you want to go in on the Mommy Wars, I'll happily tell you that you're opinions aren't worth shit, and I don't really care about your feelings at all .
Question re: black first woman second. Did this influence your career choices? Often we hear about girls following different paths because they aren't encouraged or mentored like the boys are. Would you say this applied to you as well or is/was there also a race element that affected you first? Or did something completely different happen?
Actually I think gender more influenced my career choices. I grew up surrounded by educators. Where I grew up most were women. I also wanted to teach and my mom and others gently steered me from that path. I think that they wanted me to know I had other options because in the south especially, being a teacher seemed to be the natural path for most women.
As a black woman, I feel like I am never allowed to be upset or dissatisfied. If I do, I have to be very careful how I show that, especially in front of old white ladies because they will call the cops on me (literally that has happened to me, in a bank where I was upset that they'd fucked over my account once again. Fuck you very much, Bank of America.)
There is very much an attitude that if I get upset, I'm going to hurt someone. Even my own pastor and his wife treat me that way. They could be all kinds of pissed at me for legit reasons even and they won't come talk to me about it. But I've seen them rip other women who aren't black to shreds.
If I express even the least bit of irritation, the responses are amazing. It's especially bad in the south I think.
My favorite work example of the Angry Black Woman was when I disagreed with an approach at the office. It pissed me off that I was immediately told that I was "like a dog with a bone" picking at the discussion. BECAUSE Y'ALL GONE GET SUED!!! I asked another colleague about it from a legal standpoint and she confirmed that my issues with the approach were valid. But, this thought that I needed to be docile when discussing an issue was just too much. I'm passionate with a disagreement, so I'm angry? Ok then.
Post by One Girl In All The World on Mar 13, 2015 13:55:42 GMT -5
I don't have anything to add but I wanted to say that I am following this and have found the insight and perspective shared to be incredibly eye-opening and thank you to you all for sharing.
I don't have anything to add but I wanted to say that I am following this and have found the insight and perspective shared to be incredibly eye-opening and thank you to you all for sharing.
Basically this. I really appreciate this conversation.
Question: WRT relationships to other women, do you feel like you can be more authentically yourself (stereotype fitting or not) with other black women or do you feel the same judgment about stereotypes from within as without?
I have a varied cross section of friends. Two of my closest IRL friends are white women. I will tell you that I am 100% the same with them as I am with my other two close IRL black BFFs. These four women have seen me at my absolute lowest point. My mannerisms, slang, etc is the same with them all. Now, I will say that one of my IRL white friends and I don't do nearly as much discussion around race as I think we could because I'm not sure how she'd take it.
Not that I need to handle her with kid gloves, it was because we had another discussion that centered around some local issue and I could see that it wouldn't go well.
With other black women, I don't automatically think about the stereotypes. Or maybe I do. I'm not sure. LOL I always tend to be guarded in what I say with new groups of people because I don't want to offend and I'm not sure who in the group knows someone else who knows me. My work and personal life tend to find intersections, so I'm always careful in that because if word gets out to someone then it hampers me down the road.
Question re: black first woman second. Did this influence your career choices? Often we hear about girls following different paths because they aren't encouraged or mentored like the boys are. Would you say this applied to you as well or is/was there also a race element that affected you first? Or did something completely different happen?
I come from a family of matriarchs, so I was very encouraged by women to do well. My great aunt told me "Nita - you go to school, worry about boys later. Get your education first." I was always pushed to do well in school. Always. Once I got to college, I was mentored again - by women. And I did have two male professors who I considered mentors. One of them I see in the halls at my job on occasion and it fills me with pride that he knows who I am and remembers my work from grad school.
I currently have a peer mentor - the person who used to be in my job has been a great help in my current role. I'm finding that the men at my job aren't the best mentors. I think part of that is because they are new in their roles as well, so they don't have much input to give.
To the racial component - my mentors were both white and black. I don't think that race really played a role with how they treated me. They were drawn to me in different ways and have been extremely helpful in cultivating my experience within government.
And the more that I actively think about it, I can't think of very many examples of when I've been truly worried about being a "stereotypical" woman whereas I often want to overcome the stereotypes of blacks.
Can you expand on this? I'm not being glib.
I guess I understand some of the stereotypes of black women a little more, but what stereotypes of women (not based on race) would you not worry about so much?
Well that's half the point, I can barely even think of negative stereotypes based solely on being a woman. I guess being weak/damsel in distress. Yeah, never really worried about that.
I'm reminded I'm black on an almost daily basis. Like if I go in to a restaurant I make damn sure I tip well because I don't want to be seen as that black person who doesn't tip like usual cause they're probably on welfare.
Right now I'm at a clinic in a black neighborhood with nothing but white students and it's interesting to hear their comments about the patients. I know they mean well overall, but damn, I just sit there and think, hmm, so this is what you really think about black people.
Basically, I wouldn't always say it's a struggle, but I don't think a day goes by that I don't think about the fact that I'm black or have to watch what I say or do because I'm black, whereas being a woman isn't constantly being thrown in my face or in the back of my mind.
I don't know about most of you, but I'm really getting fucking pissed off that you all can't even get MAD. Like legit mad, for totally reasonable situations, without fear of being seen as off the handle or even dangerous. I want you to get mad now any damn time you need to.
Yeah I'm pretty sure this is the reason that I never ever make customer service complaints or get mad in public. I take it to the extreme in wanting to keep the peace and not be seen as the angry black woman when I know something is fucked up, but I feel like I won't be taken seriously and will fall in to the stereotype.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
I'm just coming in to say that I'm reading along and appreciate the posts in here. My lack of commenting has more to do with not wanting to (inadvertently) derail the conversation, but I am actively listening (reading) and learning.
I guess I understand some of the stereotypes of black women a little more, but what stereotypes of women (not based on race) would you not worry about so much?
Well that's half the point, I can barely even think of negative stereotypes based solely on being a woman. I guess being weak/damsel in distress. Yeah, never really worried about that.
I'm reminded I'm black on an almost daily basis. Like if I go in to a restaurant I make damn sure I tip well because I don't want to be seen as that black person who doesn't tip like usual cause they're probably on welfare.
Right now I'm at a clinic in a black neighborhood with nothing but white students and it's interesting to hear their comments about the patients. I know they mean well overall, but damn, I just sit there and think, hmm, so this is what you really think about black people.
Basically, I wouldn't always say it's a struggle, but I don't think a day goes by that I don't think about the fact that I'm black or have to watch what I say or do because I'm black, whereas being a woman isn't constantly being thrown in my face or in the back of my mind.
I think a lot of the women stereotypes I am faced with revolve around being a mom and in my career. They aren't as public as yours - more about being professional and not coming across as emotional or a bitch.
I have to go to work but I wanted to say this about the whole angry thing,
It really, really sucks to have that perception be the one you have to fight constantly. I fight it in school meetings where I'm perceived as an uneducated welfare mom who is too lazy to help her kids do better in school. I might be undereducated. I might have children by different fathers. But that doesn't mean I don't want what's best for my kids. I don't like being discounted because of the color of my skin and that's exactly what happens to black women and black mothers all over this country in so many circumstances.
I don't get to be pissed off at the grocery store because the default response is that I'm about to go off, black folks can't control themselves.
I don't get to be crabby at a PTA meeting because then I'm just an angry ghetto black woman who had kids too soon.
There are so many circumstances I could list where being black is the first problem and being a woman is far behind but I'm already late leaving here. I just wanted to say so before I left.
I can so relate to this. The sad part about it is that it continues the unequal treatment, partially because we opt out of going to battle for things that are right or fair for us or our children. I feel immense guilt about this. I can't tell you the number of times I have had to talk myself down or rehearse how to say something in a calm tone when something happened at daycare or school etc. Because I know that if I say anything and it goes sideways then my concerns will be dismissed as an angry black woman who can't reasonable. Often I just stop going to certain establishments rather than confront the problem.
This says a lot, doesn't it, about the reasons anger in WOC is treated as so dangerous? It's like a built-in safeguard for the status quo.
I do have a question for @wandering specifically with regards to patients. How does this affect your interactions with them?
Hmm, that's a good question. Do you mean white patients or minority patients?
I do think I feel a little more relaxed with black patients, not relaxed as in not take them as seriously, but able to build a better rapport with them. I feel like they feel comfortable with me. The past few months I've definitely gotten a lot of congratulations and "we're so proud of you" specifically from black patients when they ask when I graduate and I tell them in June.
I've worked with a variety of doctors and residents over the past 4 years of school and I try to learn something (whether good or bad) from them in regards to patient interactions because that's the kind of thing you can't learn from a book and I do wish I had some more black role models in that regards. I've worked directly with 2 black male attendings (just last month), 1 black female resident and 2 black female attendings. Never worked with a black male resident.
I do remember the 1 black female resident telling me (after I did take a little long on a history & physical because the patient was going in to unnecessary stuff and I wasn't redirecting well enough) to make sure to always be on point because people won't take you seriously as a black female doctor, so don't let any patients walk all over you. I didn't forget that piece of advice.
I want to address the "shit show" - yet again, we ask women to explain and share their experiences, and when they do we have 2! instances of "Imma let you finish but..." No. Fuck that noise. I'm pissed that it happened here, on this board. Like IIOY I'm angry.
I'm sorry ladies.
Now I'm going to continue to read and hope this wasn't yet another interjection that will derail you.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
Yes, all the time.
ETA: Especially when I have to present a patient or do something in front of old, white doctors. I feel like I have to have everything absolutely 100% on point.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
I recently had a conversation with a friend, who is black. She actually felt like the bar was set low for her by her bosses (who are no longer her bosses now). Like, she got the feeling that her bosses were surprised that she could do a good job, let alone the great job that she actually does (we were colleagues too). Her "favorite" comment was how one of them remarked about how "articulate" she was as if he was very surprised that she could be articulate, and there was really nothing else about her that would make him think that she wasn't articulate (she has a great resume, great experience, her written communication is superb, etc.) than her skin color.
As for my white self? I always feel pressure to never make mistakes and a big part of that is being a woman, especially a relatively young woman, especially in this new job I have. So I can only imagine how much more pressure I would feel if I weren't white. I don't doubt that the pressure would be more intense.
Post by Wrath0fKuus on Mar 13, 2015 14:40:02 GMT -5
A question: you've talked about how battling Feminine Mystique feminism isn't about you, but how about Beauty Myth battling? Does dismantling the beauty myth do anything appreciable for you?
I don't have anything to add but I wanted to say that I am following this and have found the insight and perspective shared to be incredibly eye-opening and thank you to you all for sharing.
seconded. Finding this conversation informative and eye opening.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
My parents were hardcore with the "work twice as hard to be seen half as good" mantra, so that's a yes for me.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
I often feel like that...Like. A lot, and I am in a job where I also had to jump in head first and be 100% on and be a SME.
::hugs:: it's a lot of pressure. :^)
Wait...if this was just directed for WOC, I'll delete, I'm sorry.
A question: you've talked about how battling Feminine Mystique feminism isn't about you, but how about Beauty Myth battling? Does dismantling the beauty myth do anything appreciable for you?
Honestly, I don't think so. Because black women are usually only thought to be pretty if they are light skinned and thin. I think that Viola Davis and Lupita are tackling this - pretty much in the same way that Alex Wek did. That beauty doesn't just reside in thin white women. Also, I could be out of turn here because I'm not overweight, but for black women, at least if you are "thick" you can still get a dude. I vividly recall being at a frat pool party and overhearing two black guys say that I was "cute" but too thin. I am 5'7" and weighed probably 113lbs back then.
So, encouraging white women to be happy with curves and they can be beautiful was already being done for black women. Baby Got Back? Da Butt? Yeah, black men have never had a problem with loving a few extra pounds on a woman.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
I often feel like that...Like. A lot, and I am in a job where I also had to jump in head first and be 100% on and be a SME.
::hugs:: it's a lot of pressure. :^)
Wait...if this was just directed for WOC, I'll delete, I'm sorry.
No - it's cool! I was just curious because at my job it seems like the one dude who doesn't know shit and EVERYONE KNOWS he doesn't know shit gets a pass. Me? I get an entirely decimated office thrown at me, no training manual and LORD FORBID I don't know how the shit was done, my ass is on the line.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks
I am sure (not probably, eta) greater for black women, but I certainly do. At my level, it is often just men. My counterparts in this are--all men to my knowledge. It is likely field based.
I want to address the "shit show" - yet again, we ask women to explain and share their experiences, and when they do we have 2! instances of "Imma let you finish but..." No. Fuck that noise. I'm pissed that it happened here, on this board. Like IIOY I'm angry.
I'm sorry ladies.
Now I'm going to continue to read and hope this wasn't yet another interjection that will derail you.
Amen. The shitshow was not started by the ladies in this thread. This thread is amazing and the statement 'shitshow' makes it sound like people checking a poor post were wrong. Nope. Not. (I am supporting Pixy and want that to be clear, even though I know she does not need it. It bothered me, too, esp once people kept saying 'shitshow.')
I'm just coming in to say that I'm reading along and appreciate the posts in here. My lack of commenting has more to do with not wanting to (inadvertently) derail the conversation, but I am actively listening (reading) and learning.