Yes! I was trying to articulate this but couldn't come up with how to say it.
I was thinking, maybe if I were ever in a professional setting in which there were all black men and I was the only black female maybe I'd feel differently. But unfortunately that has never happened (a room full of black male doctors yes please) and if it did I think I'd be too proud and happy to even be worried about feeling dumb.
This is an important point. I remember once I was at an intern orientation for an oil and gas major. The interns were all scientists and engineers. During one of the breaks I said to the woman sitting next to me that I was impressed that there were 8 black interns out of 24. And she said "huh I was counting and there were 8 women and I thought that was a low number".
When I look around a room for someone to identify with I'm looking for black people first not women. I'm too busy battling stereotypes as a black scientist and most of the time I don't think of the female aspect. I think last year was the first time I queried the number of black female scientists in my field.
And yes the concerns are very different. I am up at night thinking how to keep my brown son alive through adulthood and he is 3. I wonder if the reason people tell me how huge he is (when he is 40 th for weight and 70th percentile for height) is simply because he is black and while not terrifying yet, is still being "othered" even though he is a baby. I could be overthinking it but yeah.
Black women are striving for basic respect. Not being automatically assumed to be uneducated and unmarried with children. And if we are, not to be seen as the scum of the earth for it.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
Truthfully, I don't think it's as bad for me. I feel like I have a safety net in a lot of ways. This is probably the white privilege and the money privilege.
I do have a question for @wandering specifically with regards to patients. How does this affect your interactions with them?
Hmm, that's a good question. Do you mean white patients or minority patients?
I do think I feel a little more relaxed with black patients, not relaxed as in not take them as seriously, but able to build a better rapport with them. I feel like they feel comfortable with me. The past few months I've definitely gotten a lot of congratulations and "we're so proud of you" specifically from black patients when they ask when I graduate and I tell them in June.
I've worked with a variety of doctors and residents over the past 4 years of school and I try to learn something (whether good or bad) from them in regards to patient interactions because that's the kind of thing you can't learn from a book and I do wish I had some more black role models in that regards. I've worked directly with 2 black male attendings (just last month), 1 black female resident and 2 black female attendings. Never worked with a black male resident.
I do remember the 1 black female resident telling me (after I did take a little long on a history & physical because the patient was going in to unnecessary stuff and I wasn't redirecting well enough) to make sure to always be on point because people won't take you seriously as a black female doctor, so don't let any patients walk all over you. I didn't forget that piece of advice.
Thanks for the response. I wasn't even sure how specific I wanted that answer to be. LOL! I guess I'd say both whites and minorities.
When you think about how it can be such a tense visit to begin with for a lot of women (some don't even want to see a male doctor), I was curious if that additional component of being a minority female physician would present additional challenges to already tense patients.
Here's a question that I have and I'm trying to think if it's just me. Does anyone else feel the insane pressure to NEVER make a mistake? It's like the learning curve doesn't exist for you. This has been a recent struggle for me because my job has changed significantly and I've basically and to jump head first and be 100% all day every day.
I'm curious if this same expectation is held to others or is it greater for black folks.
I absolutely experience this as a female in a predominately male, old boy style government work place. Most times I feel like there is no room for error, especially since I am quite young in comparison to most of the men here. I believe it is probably still greater for WOC though.
ETA: I think I misread your question the first time as directed in general and not toward other WOC. Please don't think I was trying to one up you, as that wasn't my intention at all.
I think it was directed at the general, and if not then it has helped me see that is a commonality and pressure that we share.
I'm dating a black guy from London right now. We were recently in the elevator. We were joking around and I whispered to him, "I'm going to yell and tell these people that you beat me."
He responded with "good luck with that, you know the people either probably won't care or they probably already assume that you get beat."
Then, we went on to talk about similar things to this thread like when a white woman goes missing it's national news and the same is never said for black women.
It would be interesting to see a WWYD episode with domestic violence between a white couple, black couple and a mixed race couple (black man, white woman)...I'm sure we can all imagine how that would go.
This is an important point. I remember once I was at an intern orientation for an oil and gas major. The interns were all scientists and engineers. During one of the breaks I said to the woman sitting next to me that I was impressed that there were 8 black interns out of 24. And she said "huh I was counting and there were 8 women and I thought that was a low number".
When I look around a room for someone to identify with I'm looking for black people first not women. I'm too busy battling stereotypes as a black scientist and most of the time I don't think of the female aspect. I think last year was the first time I queried the number of black female scientists in my field.
And yes the concerns are very different. I am up at night thinking how to keep my brown son alive through adulthood and he is 3. I wonder if the reason people tell me how huge he is (when he is 40 th for weight and 70th percentile for height) is simply because he is black and while not terrifying yet, is still being "othered" even though he is a baby. I could be overthinking it but yeah.
Black women are striving for basic respect. Not being automatically assumed to be uneducated and unmarried with children. And if we are, not to be seen as the scum of the earth for it.
And this is like reason #17 why I said in the other thread that I identify as black first, woman second. I don't necessarily have a common bond with another person just because she is a woman. Hell, for all I know, the woman could be a racist. There are commonalities I'm bound to have with other black people just because of our shared experiences. As @wandering said, there is a comfort level. I notice this even with clients at work. Many of us are so accustomed to being one of the few or the only, when we see one another, it's like:
I'm not trying to bring us to the gif portion of the thread, but this is literally how I feel sometimes when I get in a meeting and there's a black person lol.
I am definitely becoming more feminist with age, but I don't think I will ever reach a point in my life where I care more about issues affecting only women than I care about issues affecting only black people or POC.
My son is 19 and I don't know when I'm going to stop being afraid. Nothing happens in our neighborhood. He's a good boy lol. He goes to a good university. But every time I hear one of those stories, the fear is crippling. That's my battle. Not whether Reese Witherspoon makes more than Russell Crowe or whether I should be offended when some guy holds a door for me. I call those "problems" living the fucking dream.
I often feel like that...Like. A lot, and I am in a job where I also had to jump in head first and be 100% on and be a SME.
::hugs:: it's a lot of pressure. :^)
Wait...if this was just directed for WOC, I'll delete, I'm sorry.
No - it's cool! I was just curious because at my job it seems like the one dude who doesn't know shit and EVERYONE KNOWS he doesn't know shit gets a pass. Me? I get an entirely decimated office thrown at me, no training manual and LORD FORBID I don't know how the shit was done, my ass is on the line.
Do we work at the same place and i havent had the pleasure of meeting you! ?
Hmm, that's a good question. Do you mean white patients or minority patients?
I do think I feel a little more relaxed with black patients, not relaxed as in not take them as seriously, but able to build a better rapport with them. I feel like they feel comfortable with me. The past few months I've definitely gotten a lot of congratulations and "we're so proud of you" specifically from black patients when they ask when I graduate and I tell them in June.
I've worked with a variety of doctors and residents over the past 4 years of school and I try to learn something (whether good or bad) from them in regards to patient interactions because that's the kind of thing you can't learn from a book and I do wish I had some more black role models in that regards. I've worked directly with 2 black male attendings (just last month), 1 black female resident and 2 black female attendings. Never worked with a black male resident.
I do remember the 1 black female resident telling me (after I did take a little long on a history & physical because the patient was going in to unnecessary stuff and I wasn't redirecting well enough) to make sure to always be on point because people won't take you seriously as a black female doctor, so don't let any patients walk all over you. I didn't forget that piece of advice.
Thanks for the response. I wasn't even sure how specific I wanted that answer to be. LOL! I guess I'd say both whites and minorities.
When you think about how it can be such a tense visit to begin with for a lot of women (some don't even want to see a male doctor), I was curious if that additional component of being a minority female physician would present additional challenges to already tense patients.
Ahh gotcha. I've done many more non ob/gyn rotations, so I wasn't even specifically thinking of ob/gyn patients in the outpatient setting. I'll probably have to get back to you with that when I have more experience specifically in obgyn in a few months
This is an important point. I remember once I was at an intern orientation for an oil and gas major. The interns were all scientists and engineers. During one of the breaks I said to the woman sitting next to me that I was impressed that there were 8 black interns out of 24. And she said "huh I was counting and there were 8 women and I thought that was a low number".
When I look around a room for someone to identify with I'm looking for black people first not women. I'm too busy battling stereotypes as a black scientist and most of the time I don't think of the female aspect. I think last year was the first time I queried the number of black female scientists in my field.
And yes the concerns are very different. I am up at night thinking how to keep my brown son alive through adulthood and he is 3. I wonder if the reason people tell me how huge he is (when he is 40 th for weight and 70th percentile for height) is simply because he is black and while not terrifying yet, is still being "othered" even though he is a baby. I could be overthinking it but yeah.
Black women are striving for basic respect. Not being automatically assumed to be uneducated and unmarried with children. And if we are, not to be seen as the scum of the earth for it.
And this is like reason #17 why I said in the other thread that I identify as black first, woman second. I don't necessarily have a common bond with another person just because she is a woman. Hell, for all I know, the woman could be a racist. There are commonalities I'm bound to have with other black people just because of our shared experiences. As @wandering said, there is a comfort level. I notice this even with clients at work. Many of us are so accustomed to being one of the few or the only, when we see one another, it's like:
I'm not trying to bring us to the gif portion of the thread, but this is literally how I feel sometimes when I get in a meeting and there's a black person lol.
I am definitely becoming more feminist with age, but I don't think I will ever reach a point in my life where I care more about issues affecting only women than I care about issues affecting only black people or POC.
My son is 19 and I don't know when I'm going to stop being afraid. Nothing happens in our neighborhood. He's a good boy lol. He goes to a good university. But every time I hear one of those stories, the fear is crippling. That's my battle. Not whether Reese Witherspoon makes more than Russell Crowe or whether I should be offended when some guy holds a door for me. I call those "problems" living the fucking dream.
Your gif reminds me of one of my friends from college. My school had a shitton of various shades of brown people, but a very very limited black population. One of my besties in my department was mixed race (black & white), bi-sexual and a female engineering student. I mean - damn, how many minorities can you be at one time? But above all else, all the time - she saw herself as black. She and her GF who was also in our dept but a few years ahead of us would go to events and classes and when they'd give the recap to each other the first question was always how many chocolate drops were in the audidience (their terminology). They'd be so psyched for more than like...2. In a lecture hall of 200. That stuck with me.
This is an important point. I remember once I was at an intern orientation for an oil and gas major. The interns were all scientists and engineers. During one of the breaks I said to the woman sitting next to me that I was impressed that there were 8 black interns out of 24. And she said "huh I was counting and there were 8 women and I thought that was a low number".
When I look around a room for someone to identify with I'm looking for black people first not women. I'm too busy battling stereotypes as a black scientist and most of the time I don't think of the female aspect. I think last year was the first time I queried the number of black female scientists in my field.
And yes the concerns are very different. I am up at night thinking how to keep my brown son alive through adulthood and he is 3. I wonder if the reason people tell me how huge he is (when he is 40 th for weight and 70th percentile for height) is simply because he is black and while not terrifying yet, is still being "othered" even though he is a baby. I could be overthinking it but yeah.
Black women are striving for basic respect. Not being automatically assumed to be uneducated and unmarried with children. And if we are, not to be seen as the scum of the earth for it.
And this is like reason #17 why I said in the other thread that I identify as black first, woman second. I don't necessarily have a common bond with another person just because she is a woman. Hell, for all I know, the woman could be a racist. There are commonalities I'm bound to have with other black people just because of our shared experiences. As @wandering said, there is a comfort level. I notice this even with clients at work. Many of us are so accustomed to being one of the few or the only, when we see one another, it's like:
I'm not trying to bring us to the gif portion of the thread, but this is literally how I feel sometimes when I get in a meeting and there's a black person lol.
I am definitely becoming more feminist with age, but I don't think I will ever reach a point in my life where I care more about issues affecting only women than I care about issues affecting only black people or POC.
My son is 19 and I don't know when I'm going to stop being afraid. Nothing happens in our neighborhood. He's a good boy lol. He goes to a good university. But every time I hear one of those stories, the fear is crippling. That's my battle. Not whether Reese Witherspoon makes more than Russell Crowe or whether I should be offended when some guy holds a door for me. I call those "problems" living the fucking dream.
The breadth of racism is deeper and something I'll never fully understand. But, are you saying that feminism (which, yes, sometimes talks about little things like actresses making less than actors or being made to feel the weaker sex in everyday interactions) is basically a first world problem in your opinion? That sort of stings to hear that. Maybe it should, I don't know.
I want to address the "shit show" - yet again, we ask women to explain and share their experiences, and when they do we have 2! instances of "Imma let you finish but..." No. Fuck that noise. I'm pissed that it happened here, on this board. Like IIOY I'm angry.
I'm sorry ladies.
Now I'm going to continue to read and hope this wasn't yet another interjection that will derail you.
You know, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but I'm annoyed, so Imma say it anyway.
Personally (not directed at you Pixy), I'm baffled as to why this discussion was deactivation worthy. I don't get it, and maybe it's because I have thick skin and I approach confrontation differently, but this is quite frankly, silly. There wasn't some obscene level of snark thrown here and there was a pretty good rebuttal post by Cookie that was pretty much dead spot on for a number of posters.
That said - of course I'm not the barometer for when folks feel that they need to bow out, so if she felt the need to do so, fine. But, I'm still sitting here in confusion because it didn't seem warranted IMO. But, whatever.
There's a lot of good stuff in this thread. I think you can go even further by channeling Angela Davis' Women, Race and Class theories here. Why we can't fully discuss what is a topic widely discussed by feminists in the Twitter-verse here without a deactivation is absurd.
downtoearth No, I don't think feminism is a first world problem at all. Look at the world at large and women have a long way to go. But on a daily basis as a black woman living in America, I'm going to see myself as black first.
I've been trying to gather my thoughts coherently on this and struggling so I'll just spill out stuff here and hope you can piece it together in some way that makes sense. Also, hopefully someone else will weigh in, too.
I get that feminism fundamentally wants women of all races and ethnicities to have equal footing, pay etc with men, specifically white men.
But -- and I touched on this a bit in the other thread -- I think the differences in how white women and black women have been perceived over time often puts us at cross purposes in regard to fighting for feminist causes. White women, for the most part, have always been prized and, yes, "protected," which includes being condescended to and treated like children, incompetents and so on. Just have babies and look pretty over there ----> somewhere. And I can see how that would piss you the fuck off and why some feminists bristle at men opening doors and whatnot. But, at the end of the day, you are white and sexism aside, you benefit from the privilege that comes along with that.
Black women have been viewed differently. Not prizes. Mammies. Mules. Dirty. Our virginity wasn't prized because it's assumed we aren't virgins anyway, because we're whores. Too fat. Asses too big. Poor. Uneducated. Angry. Unwanted.
Black feminists can't just focus on women's issues. We aren't just fighting against sexism and the patriarchy, we're also battling racism, classism and social justice issues. We have fewer resources at our disposal, because we don't start from a place of privilege. Yes, we want that other $00.30, but we also want our sons to leave our homes and come back in the same condition in which we sent them out into the world. We also want to live in safe neighborhoods and not have banks prey on us with fucked up loan rates when we our credit scores and history are similar to that of non-black people. We want to send our daughters out into the world and not worry that the messages they receive about beauty will convince them that they are not beautiful because they are the wrong complexion, their hair is the wrong texture.
I'll stop now.
So I only made it as far as your post and had to stop to comment. This is amazingly well written and really makes me understand. I mean not that I ever thought that as a white woman I was more discriminated against than any black person, but damn this really puts it in perspective.
downtoearth No, I don't think feminism is a first world problem at all. Look at the world at large and women have a long way to go. But on a daily basis as a black woman living in America, I'm going to see myself as black first.
It's just so different from my experience that I'm just waddling through and appreciate the honestly. I think I just grew up thinking it was women bound with other women to change the world - and the reality is that it's not always like that and I can see why it the differences sometimes need to be prioritized.
You know, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but I'm annoyed, so Imma say it anyway.
Personally (not directed at you Pixy), I'm baffled as to why this discussion was deactivation worthy. I don't get it, and maybe it's because I have thick skin and I approach confrontation differently, but this is quite frankly, silly. There wasn't some obscene level of snark thrown here and there was a pretty good rebuttal post by Cookie that was pretty much dead spot on for a number of posters.
That said - of course I'm not the barometer for when folks feel that they need to bow out, so if she felt the need to do so, fine. But, I'm still sitting here in confusion because it didn't seem warranted IMO. But, whatever.
There's a lot of good stuff in this thread. I think you can go even further by channeling Angela Davis' Women, Race and Class theories here. Why we can't fully discuss what is a topic widely discussed by feminists in the Twitter-verse here without a deactivation is absurd.
I was wondering too. I figured there was something bigger going on. I've lurked here far longer than I've posted and I've seen that poster go back and forth in far more rancorous discussions. So it seemed... odd.
This concept of mentors is something I come across often. Whether as a generic woman or a woc, can anyone speak to what it's meant in your field?
I've encouraged my mil friends to get female mentors, but they don't want to seem as needing "extra" help.
Here's what my mentors have done for me - College - Encouraging me to think through all various proposals, providing constructive criticism on papers/work, etc.
1st Govt Job - I was paired with another worker and I was able to follow her around and learn the ropes. It was very much like a "training" but, my GOD, I didn't realize how much I learned from her until she left. I was really, really sad when she left the organization because she was SO helpful. My boss at that job was also great because she really helped model what ethical public service was.
Current job - My mentor here also encourages healthy debate. The other thing she did was that she let me craft model legislation so that I can add that to my lists of things I can do. She also provided solid career advice. I can always go to her and ask what I need to improve on.
Peer Mentor - She's been a rock because she's said "Do XYZ, because of ABC." It's the on the job training that I didn't get because she wasn't here to show me how to do it. She's also an advocate for me. She's been very vocal in saying to people "Look, she was handed a raw deal because of what ya'll decided. Let her learn the ropes. She's capable, but she was given NOTHING." LOL I haven't needed to lean on her as much as I did my first 6 months in the role. I've gotten much better at it in large part because of her. We have a monthly lunch (that we're overdue for) where I get a chance to debrief her and she gives me pointers.
So - some of it's not really extra "help" but guidance in navigating the work.
And this is like reason #17 why I said in the other thread that I identify as black first, woman second. I don't necessarily have a common bond with another person just because she is a woman. Hell, for all I know, the woman could be a racist. There are commonalities I'm bound to have with other black people just because of our shared experiences. As @wandering said, there is a comfort level. I notice this even with clients at work. Many of us are so accustomed to being one of the few or the only, when we see one another, it's like:
I'm not trying to bring us to the gif portion of the thread, but this is literally how I feel sometimes when I get in a meeting and there's a black person lol.
I am definitely becoming more feminist with age, but I don't think I will ever reach a point in my life where I care more about issues affecting only women than I care about issues affecting only black people or POC.
My son is 19 and I don't know when I'm going to stop being afraid. Nothing happens in our neighborhood. He's a good boy lol. He goes to a good university. But every time I hear one of those stories, the fear is crippling. That's my battle. Not whether Reese Witherspoon makes more than Russell Crowe or whether I should be offended when some guy holds a door for me. I call those "problems" living the fucking dream.
The breadth of racism is deeper and something I'll never fully understand. But, are you saying that feminism (which, yes, sometimes talks about little things like actresses making less than actors or being made to feel the weaker sex in everyday interactions) is basically a first world problem in your opinion? That sort of stings to hear that. Maybe it should, I don't know.
I'd like to think this is one of those topics where you can care about more than one thing, both feminism and racism. What is important is that when we argue for feminism and women's treatment in the world, we need to be mindful of the history of all women and that our treatment over the years has been different, and that in turn can create a feeling of cross-purposes. Yes?
downtoearth No, I don't think feminism is a first world problem at all. Look at the world at large and women have a long way to go. But on a daily basis as a black woman living in America, I'm going to see myself as black first.
It's just so different from my experience that I'm just waddling through and appreciate the honestly. I think I just grew up thinking it was women bound with other women to change the world - and the reality is that it's not always like that and I can see why it the differences sometimes need to be prioritized.
Well I still think that can be true.
I don't know if what I'm going to say is about to make sense, but here we go...
In America, in my experience race relations are so much more of a bigger problem as many of us have cited above in this thread, but that doesn't diminish the problems that women suffer around the world.
For example, when I was working in South Africa I worked somewhat heavily with a girl's only program that was very unique in that it was a program for girl's to play soccer (which is basically unheard of) and pretty much "girl power" and education. While working there I absolutely saw women/girls bonding with other women/girls to change the world in a different light than I see here. Yes there is gender based violence here in the U.S., but it's a whole different ballgame there and the bond that those girls and women formed was and is incredible and life changing.
So those issues there are still very important to me, but now that I'm back in the U.S. on a daily basis I identify with black first based on the issues that we face in America.
In military world, although they really need female mentors, my friends both young and old are loathe to appear as needing extra help. From my perspective it would be so beneficial
Post by penguingrrl on Mar 13, 2015 15:46:46 GMT -5
I want to thank all you ladies for sharing your experience and truly broadening my perspective on the world. I've read all of this and have to say that it's helping my understanding of many issues evolve.
I don't have anything to add but I wanted to say that I am following this and have found the insight and perspective shared to be incredibly eye-opening and thank you to you all for sharing.
seconded. Finding this conversation informative and eye opening.
This concept of mentors is something I come across often. Whether as a generic woman or a woc, can anyone speak to what it's meant in your field?
I've encouraged my mil friends to get female mentors, but they don't want to seem as needing "extra" help.
I've never had a mentor. I'm pretty sure I could have used one in the past and I KNOW I can use one right now, but I don't know how to get one or navigate that for some reason. I tend to just figure stuff out on my own.
Let me be a white/mil woman here and make this thread all about me.
Very important things being shared here. Thank you everyone who shared their thoughts and experiences here. Change won't happen without conversations like this one.
I've never had a mentor. I'm pretty sure I could have used one in the past and I KNOW I can use one right now, but I don't know how to get one or navigate that for some reason. I tend to just figure stuff out on my own.
Let me be a white/mil woman here and make this thread all about me.
I'm sorry I said I wanted to pick you up and put you in my pocketbook (angel).
LOL, Girl stop! I loved that comment, because it's so true. My size is a part of me, and I know myself well.
I think what really shocks people, when they meet me is they see someone bite sized, in a cute dress and shoes,with a big smile, bright eyes, and a perky personality, they expect me to be all "Puppies, Rainbows, Cupcakes, Yay!". A former Sped teacher ... bless her.
Meanwhile, in business settings, when I have run out of patience, I'm really like, "DON'T FUCK THIS UP, OR I WILL KILL YOUR FAMILY AND MAKE IT LOOK LIKE AN ACCIDENT. I"LL HIRE A GOOD LAYWER, AND AT WORST, BE THE ROUND ROBIN TENNIS TOURNAMENT COORDINATOR, IN WHITE COLLAR PRISON, AND YOU WILL NEVER WORK IN THIS INDUSTRY AGAIN! YOU BASTARD! DON'T EVEN TRY TO CRY!", which is a bit much, coming from someone of my stature.
It's known. I don't play around.
You know, two of the most commanding women I know (in a "these people DON'T PLAY kind of way) are both under 5 feet. It's given me a healthy respect for women of smaller stature. lol
I'm sorry I said I wanted to pick you up and put you in my pocketbook (angel).
LOL, Girl stop! I loved that comment, because it's so true. My size is a part of me, and I know myself well.
I think what really shocks people, when they meet me is they see someone bite sized, in a cute dress and shoes,with a big smile, bright eyes, and a perky personality, they expect me to be all "Puppies, Rainbows, Cupcakes, Yay!". A former Sped teacher ... bless her.
Meanwhile, in business settings, when I have run out of patience, I'm really like, "DON'T FUCK THIS UP, OR I WILL KILL YOUR FAMILY AND MAKE IT LOOK LIKE AN ACCIDENT. I"LL HIRE A GOOD LAYWER, AND AT WORST, BE THE ROUND ROBIN TENNIS TOURNAMENT COORDINATOR, IN WHITE COLLAR PRISON, AND YOU WILL NEVER WORK IN THIS INDUSTRY AGAIN! YOU BASTARD! DON'T EVEN TRY TO CRY!", which is a bit much, coming from someone of my stature.