Generally speaking, I am less wary of Republican governors. Though, as someone who has seen a Jeb administration up close and personal, I can tell you he needs to be kept FAR from the Presidency. I get physically ill just thinking about it.
This is how I would feel about Nathan Deal here in Georgia - I have NO IDEA how he won another term because he's so blatantly a sleazebag and crook that it's not even funny. Fortunately, I don't think anyone is dumb enough to try to float his name for anything more than where he is now.
chris Christie is another potential for 2016 that I don't find scary. I don't LIKE him, but again, not scary. My NJ relatives (several of whom are teachers, all of whom are blue through and through) would disown me for even saying that much, but...yeah, he's just normal NJ shady con, not terrifying.
I felt that way until he misappropriated funds sent for Sandy relief. That ended any sort of moderate standing he had with me. A woman on my local board was from a generally lower income town that was hit incredibly hard. She was able to rebuild because she had family to help her with the costs when insurance and state aid did jack shit, but she has empty lots all around her from neighbors who had no means to rebuild. When Christie was busy spending tons of relief money advertising that the shore is open he was only talking about affluent areas that mostly were able to pay first and seek insurance reimbursement after and completely ignoring the needs of those with fewer means. That combined with his comments about not being rich scare me because he is very out of touch with how real citizens are living and will continue dismantling public services and assume the "free market" will take over while turning a blind eye to how that impacts real citizens around him.
I guess I'm confused as to why it is up to me to find a Republican that I'm not terrified of. What if they ARE all terrifying? They certainly have proved themselves to be over the last 10 years or so. John McCain is a good leader and a hero for what he suffered in Vietnam but I couldn't vote for him because he picked a terrifying running mate (after knuckling under to the freaks that now run his party) and because he used air quotes around "the health of the mother" answering a question about abortion during one of the debates in 2008.
It's not up to you. I was wondering if there ws anyone that we could discuss rationally, without the immediate jump to terrifying. But if you find each and every Republican terrifying, then there's nothing to even discuss. Except for maybe your definition of terrifying.
I don't think each and every Republican is terrifying. Republicans are some of my best friends.
I think the Republican party - - or, more clearly, the leadership of the Republican party - - and the Right Wing Media are terrifying.
And that means that more moderate Republicans who want to make their way in the party have to deal with these terrifying figures. They have to either stand up for their convictions and get no money and be plastered with being called a RINO and have primary challenges and know for sure that they will never seriously be considered for national office... or they have to pander to the terrifying forces.
There used to be fantastic moderates in the Republican party. jillboston mentioned Bill Weld. You gotta love a Republican that I'd campaign for (and I did), and who when he ran for re-election as governor of Massachusetts, won with the widest margin in the state's history. Social liberal, conservative on economics. Witty. Personable. Actually got shit done as governor. Good shit.
Clinton nominated him to be Ambassador to Mexico. Weld resigned the governorship to focus on the nomination... which ended up being DOA because of Senate Foreign Relations chair Jesse Helms, who wouldn't no way no how allow Weld to become an ambassador. Because Weld is pro-choice.
I'd guess there are dozens, if not hundreds, of similar examples... people who could have been viable moderate Republican candidates for national office whose careers were killed because they weren't "Republican enough" or "really Republican"... because they're "RINO's"... like Rhinos, they've been hunted pretty much to extinction.
A decade or two ago, there was a full-on wing of the Republican party that would get votes of even crazy libs like me. But Rockefeller Republicans are no more... I blame Reagan. I blame the Right Wing media, the 24 Hour News Cycle, the Internet. And John McCain feeling the need to run with Sarah Palin.
The irony is that while the Republican party has moved way to the Right, so too has the Democratic party. Sure, there are people like Elizabeth Warren out there pounding the drum, but the mainline of the Democratic party is far more DLC, far more in line with what the Rockefeller Republicans were espousing, than anybody wants to remember. The difference is, for the most part, the Dems are unwilling to destroy the outliers in their party. Everybody knows that Dennis Kucinich will run for the nomination, and everybody knows he won't get it. But he won't be beaten about the head and neck because his brand of "Democratic" isn't the same as the party leadership's.
FWIW, none of the candidates or potential candidates send me into a tailspin of doom because I don't think any of them have a snowball's chance in hell of being elected.
Gerrymandering and a low turnout election are giving people the mistaken impression that the GOP is actually competitive outside if the south. It isn't.
A blue state voting for a red governor in no way suggests that a blue state would prefer a Republican to represent them nationally. Just look at the numbers Obama got in Maryland, Wisconsin, and Illinois. They blow the Rs recently elected there out of the water.
A vote for a Republican governor is a vote for things like charter schools or property taxes. A vote to send a Republican to DC is a vote for writing letters to terrorists delegitimizing the president and caucusing with the cabal of southern neo-confederates. They are two very different things. Which is why the GOP will lose.
We no longer have a two party system. We have the Democrats and a sideshow of narrow appeal.
So if the question is really "Which R doesn't scare you?" then my answer is none of them because they are all unelectable.
No they are too different people. Sandsonik is the simpleton who thinks we all hate the Olds and acts brand new in threads about Black people. SBP is just SBP.
I want to clear up some confusion because I think the focus on whether a candidate is "moderate" really misses the real issue here.
For me, I'm not asking that Republican candidates support liberal ideas. I think a Republican can run as a true conservative and actually not make me want to die.
My view that the GOP is a cesspool is not because they are not moderate enough. It is because they in no way have shown that they are capable of governing a multicultural, 21st Century American population facing real, modern challenges.
I have posted this here before, but it is worth posting again. Go and read it.
It is written by a conservative who hates the GOP. Here's specifically what it boils down to:
Regardless what happens in any future election, Republicans will not regain the capacity to form intelligent, relevant public policy until we can grapple with four realities. Each item on this list is measurable, provable and broadly regarded as obvious. Failure to acknowledge these four truths means being as categorically, empirically wrong as it’s possible to be in the otherwise mushy, gray realm of politics:
1) Climate change is real and it is caused primarily by human activity.
2) Human beings evolved from simpler life forms, and the same evolutionary process shapes all living systems.
3) Abortion is a complex issue because it involves two legitimate liberty interests in conflict with one another.
4) Race still skews economic outcomes in the United States.
Right now, nobody in the GOP accepts these as facts. We are not talking about differences in policy positions. We are talking about who lives in reality and who doesn't. I know conservatives on this board get pissed off when the liberals say things like, "oh but we aren't talking about the conservatives on this board." But it's true, because the conservatives on this board actually accept these four basic facts. The "conservatives" in the Republican Party and most of the Fox News audience do not.
Anyone who does not accept these things as facts is simply not fit to govern.
To illustrate how they work in reality, let's take go through them.
#1. Climate change. If you deny climate change is happening, you do not deserve a seat at the table. "Oh nature will work its course" is not a "conservative" solution to a scientific fact, it is pure ignorance. It is radical. You can have conservative solutions to environmental problems. Let me give you an example. In California, we've got a fucked up water rights system that favors businesses over individuals, and rural dwellers over city dwellers. And arguably, it favors environmental organizations over everyone. So, let's run through what the solutions look like:
A conservative solution would be a free market solution in which everyone - business, environmental organizations, and people - are charged the same rate.
A moderate solution would give environmental organizations free water, and charge everyone the same rate.
A pro-business solution would give discounts to businesses, but charge individuals a higher rate.
A liberal solution would give the environmental organizations the water for free, and charge individuals lower rates than businesses.
"It is god's way" is not a solution that fits anywhere on that spectrum.
#2. Uh, yeah, if this is not a fact you accept, I can't really help you.
#3. A far right "conservative" solution to this fact would be to say, "this is a matter for the states. I will not support any federal legislation relating to abortion of any kind." A moderate solution to this fact would be to do what Richard Nixon did and leave abortion rights to the states, but aggressively fund pregnancy prevention programs, including organizations like Planned Parenthood, through Title IX. On the state level, under both these approaches, you can have varying types of programs designed to prevent unwanted pregnancies and work with doctors to figure out if there are real, scientific, and medically sound ways to reduce the number of people who seek and obtain abortions while still providing some real pathways to obtaining it.
I see none of that from the Republican Party. Instead, I see federal level 20 week abortion bans. I see hateful, hurtful language being applauded. That is not conservative. That is radical.
#4. Race. A conservative solution to this problem might start with rolling back federal level criminal legislation and police power, and leaving it to the states. A radical approach is to deny that it is a problem at all.
If a conservative candidate existed, acknowledged facts, and proposed actual conservative solutions, I would not retreat into a bunker. You find me that candidate. Until then, no.
And for the record, I'm seriously pissed off that we've got a whole party that denies reality, and yet, liberals are perceived as being giant babies throwing tantrums for not getting their way.
I don't think I could possibly say anything that hasn't already been said by ESF (blows big kisses her way).
Generally, the GOP needs to have a major come to Jesus moment with itself before I could ever possibly consider voting for an R.
But specifically, as long as my uterus is still a soccer ball they kick around to score political points, I could never vote for an R. And I don't see them ever taking my uterus off the table because even if half the R candidates don't actually give a rats ass about my lady parts that same crowd knows that my body is still political fodder for winning elections. Fuck them.
My prediction for the national GOP is mirrored by what has happened to the GOP in CA. They will be greatly neutered at some fast approaching date such that they can't win national elections. They will be a regional party. Because the corporate machine still must be fed, you will begin to see even more Dems moderating who are very business friendly. And no, this is not a Dem compliment either.
I kind of view 2016 as a lost cause that may determine whether the Rs can change or if they are going to stay beholden to Christian Right that Reagan courted to win.
2016 is likely going to be a massacre in the Senate because you have the 2010 tea partiers up for reelection. Of the current declared candidates, I don't think any are actually electable. I mean, I wouldn't vote for any of them. They don't terrify me though. Well, unless you find stupidity terrifying. Add all this to the fact that I think it's highly likely that gay marriage bans are going to be ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, I think the writing is on the wall. Social cons on certain issues are a minority and I think (hope) it's going to be clear that Rs cannot continue to court that wing in the way they have been if they want to be electable on a national level.
And honestly, I think that's what 99% of their garbage is about - what they view as electable and what will get them the win. But they seem to fail to realize that winning the primaries and ending up the nominee is making them unelectable in the general election. Idk if they live in an echo chamber or believe their own press, but they are far out of touch with what the majority of people care about. There's a loud group that cares but they simply don't have the numbers to make a difference in the general.
Anyway, I think 2016 could wake them up. I honestly kind of hope for a massacre so they can get their shit figured out. Because this country is better with two strong parties that have to work together and meet in the middle - not work around each other and claim their way is the only way.
Finally I think the point of this question was more informational - in the sense of "is there any chance there are going to be any worthwhile debates over the candidates as we approach 2016?" And I think the answer is pretty clear - I don't mean that snarkily and certainly there is plenty of fault to be laid at the door of the GOP for this state of affairs.
My prediction for the national GOP is mirrored by what has happened to the GOP in CA. They will be greatly neutered at some fast approaching date such that they can't win national elections. They will be a regional party. Because the corporate machine still must be fed, you will begin to see even more Dems moderating who are very business friendly. And no, this is not a Dem compliment either.
I agree 100%.
I think we are pretty much there. The 2014 elections are giving solace to people in denial, but the GOP is shrinking into irrelevance and a careful look at the numbers will tell you that.
My prediction for the national GOP is mirrored by what has happened to the GOP in CA. They will be greatly neutered at some fast approaching date such that they can't win national elections. They will be a regional party. Because the corporate machine still must be fed, you will begin to see even more Dems moderating who are very business friendly. And no, this is not a Dem compliment either.
I agree 100%.
I think we are pretty much there. The 2014 elections are giving solace to people in denial, but the GOP is shrinking into irrelevance and a careful look at the numbers will tell you that.
Meanwhile, HRC is rolling in the cash.
2012 was the GOP's Waterloo for their Presidential hopes anyway until there is a radical shift back to the middle.
I think we are pretty much there. The 2014 elections are giving solace to people in denial, but the GOP is shrinking into irrelevance and a careful look at the numbers will tell you that.
Meanwhile, HRC is rolling in the cash.
2012 was the GOP's Waterloo for their Presidential hopes anyway until there is a radical shift back to the middle.
The denial was pretty deep then. Remember all the Nate Silver bashing? The repeated insistence from the right that the polls were a liberal media conspiracy?
Yeah.
The entire right wing organizational structure treats anything that challenges their world view not as a fact, but as an idea to be debated, a conspiracy, or a threat to their very being. That will be their demise.
I think we are pretty much there. The 2014 elections are giving solace to people in denial, but the GOP is shrinking into irrelevance and a careful look at the numbers will tell you that.
Meanwhile, HRC is rolling in the cash.
2012 was the GOP's Waterloo for their Presidential hopes anyway until there is a radical shift back to the middle.
I agree. I don't think the GOP agrees yet how much toast they actually are though.
Post by omgzombies on Apr 22, 2015 11:48:42 GMT -5
McCain, Huntsman, and Christie have all been mentioned. I don't find any of them terrifying. They wouldn't get my vote, but I'm not scared of them. There are also a lot of candidates out there who I think would/could do a significant amount of damage to causes that are important to me, and I find them to be morally repugnant, but also not terrifying. I think this nation would survive 4-8 years of Republican leadership, despite hating a majority of what the party stands for right now.
In my head to be truly terrifying means that if they are elected President, I up and flee the country. There aren't many of those.
I think 2012 was a gentler chance for them to make some changes but they've wasted the opportunities they had to gain some credibility that they care about fiscal policy and are actually in Washington to accomplish something.
Instead it seems a lot saw 2012 as evidence that a more moderate R cannot win when they should have seen that moving to the right to pander to the loud far right annihilates their chance in the general. The other problem is that anyone who is in Congress is seen as useless and has also been pandering with various ridiculous votes and shenanigans. So there is seriously no one who doesn't look pretty far right that has name recognition.
I don't know - maybe it's naive of me or perhaps overly cynical - but I think we have a combo of true believers and people who care about being elected, period. So they pander and have been pandering and there's no dissent to this nonsense. Even ones who don't believe go along because the party and success/reelection has become so tied to this party line with the primary challenges (ahem Dick Lugar).
Can anybody give me an update on the Tea Party?? I know many of us thought that the GOP would have a come to Jesus moment after they got stomped in 2008 and a very unlikely Obama won. As somebody mentioned above, they doubled down & went even further right b/c of the tea party movement- which initially started out as a fiscal issues movement & then expanded to include pretty much all super-right wing causes. Since the Tea party won big in 2010 & made asses of themselves since then generally, is the Tea party popularity declining? Do they still have some control over the GOP party as a whole? Are they fielding a bunch more candidates for 2016?
Can anybody give me an update on the Tea Party?? I know many of us thought that the GOP would have a come to Jesus moment after they got stomped in 2008 and a very unlikely Obama won. As somebody mentioned above, they doubled down & went even further right b/c of the tea party movement- which initially started out as a fiscal issues movement & then expanded to include pretty much all super-right wing causes. Since the Tea party won big in 2010 & made asses of themselves since then generally, is the Tea party popularity declining? Do they still have some control over the GOP party as a whole? Are they fielding a bunch more candidates for 2016?
I haven't followed it closely, but it's interesting to me that some of the most well known TP candidates (like Cruz) are running for President and giving up their Senate seats. I think common wisdom is that it's going to be a massacre for a variety of reasons, some related to the TP and some related to more boring things like which states are in play and the fact that it's a presidential election year.
I think 2010 and maybe 2012 saw the most primary challenges and TP candidates, but I know here (red red red TN) there was some noise about a TP candidate running against Lamar Alexander in the primary but it basically went nowhere and he won easily, which was in 2014. He's probably seen as a little more conservative than say Lugar, but he's been around a long time and seems like the type (and TN seems like the type of state) that might be vulnerable to a Tea Party challenge.
Can anybody give me an update on the Tea Party?? I know many of us thought that the GOP would have a come to Jesus moment after they got stomped in 2008 and a very unlikely Obama won. As somebody mentioned above, they doubled down & went even further right b/c of the tea party movement- which initially started out as a fiscal issues movement & then expanded to include pretty much all super-right wing causes. Since the Tea party won big in 2010 & made asses of themselves since then generally, is the Tea party popularity declining? Do they still have some control over the GOP party as a whole? Are they fielding a bunch more candidates for 2016?
I haven't followed it closely, but it's interesting to me that some of the most well known TP candidates (like Cruz) are running for President and giving up their Senate seats. I think common wisdom is that it's going to be a massacre for a variety of reasons, some related to the TP and some related to more boring things like which states are in play and the fact that it's a presidential election year.
I think 2010 and maybe 2012 saw the most primary challenges and TP candidates, but I know here (red red red TN) there was some noise about a TP candidate running against Lamar Alexander in the primary but it basically went nowhere and he won easily, which was in 2014. He's probably seen as a little more conservative than say Lugar, but he's been around a long time and seems like the type (and TN seems like the type of state) that might be vulnerable to a Tea Party challenge.
Ted Cruz got elected in 2012. It's Rubio that is giving up his seat to run.
Lamar Alexander didn't sign the letter to Iran. On that basis alone, I would like to see him stay.
Ted Cruz's race will tell us a lot about the real strength of the Tea Party. He has basically said that he doesn't give a flying fuck about moderates, but that he thinks he can win by mobilizing the far right, the people who have sat out elections in the past. I predict the Tea Party rallies around him, so we'll see how far he goes.
I haven't followed it closely, but it's interesting to me that some of the most well known TP candidates (like Cruz) are running for President and giving up their Senate seats. I think common wisdom is that it's going to be a massacre for a variety of reasons, some related to the TP and some related to more boring things like which states are in play and the fact that it's a presidential election year.
I think 2010 and maybe 2012 saw the most primary challenges and TP candidates, but I know here (red red red TN) there was some noise about a TP candidate running against Lamar Alexander in the primary but it basically went nowhere and he won easily, which was in 2014. He's probably seen as a little more conservative than say Lugar, but he's been around a long time and seems like the type (and TN seems like the type of state) that might be vulnerable to a Tea Party challenge.
Ted Cruz got elected in 2012. It's Rubio that is giving up his seat to run.
Lamar Alexander didn't sign the letter to Iran. On that basis alone, I would like to see him stay.
Ted Cruz's race will tell us a lot about the real strength of the Tea Party. He has basically said that he doesn't give a flying fuck about moderates, but that he thinks he can win by mobilizing the far right, the people who have sat out elections in the past. I predict the Tea Party rallies around him, so we'll see how far he goes.
I'm interested in seeing how it plays out for sure. Cruz, in particular, is one I've seen a lot of disdain and backlash against because of the shutdown. I have family that is pretty Fox News and Tea Partyish at times but during the recent bullshit in Indiana, they were appalled and said they are sick of all the focus on social cons and those issues. Idk, I know a lot of people who were kind of caught up in the TP hype who are now disenchanted and fatigued with that crowd. And I think rightly so.
Lamar Alexander is interesting to me because he's overwhelmingly popular in very conservative TN. Seriously some of our state reps and senators are caricatures, but he comes off as pretty moderate and intelligent yet the noise about a primary challenger really was a non issue last year. He to me is an old school R who knows what he's doing like Lugar. Although it's sad and humorous that when I was in college, Lugar spoke at IU's graduation ceremony and a lot of my liberal friends who went there were like "ewww! He's so conservative."
I don't think I could possibly say anything that hasn't already been said by ESF (blows big kisses her way).
Generally, the GOP needs to have a major come to Jesus moment with itself before I could ever possibly consider voting for an R.
But specifically, as long as my uterus is still a soccer ball they kick around to score political points, I could never vote for an R. And I don't see them ever taking my uterus off the table because even if half the R candidates don't actually give a rats ass about my lady parts that same crowd knows that my body is still political fodder for winning elections. Fuck them.
My prediction for the national GOP is mirrored by what has happened to the GOP in CA. They will be greatly neutered at some fast approaching date such that they can't win national elections. They will be a regional party. Because the corporate machine still must be fed, you will begin to see even more Dems moderating who are very business friendly. And no, this is not a Dem compliment either.
This made me LOL.
They done come ta'Jesus a LOT already. That's what got them into this mess in the first place. They've been completely co-opted by far right Evangelicals.
I don't think I could possibly say anything that hasn't already been said by ESF (blows big kisses her way).
Generally, the GOP needs to have a major come to Jesus moment with itself before I could ever possibly consider voting for an R.
But specifically, as long as my uterus is still a soccer ball they kick around to score political points, I could never vote for an R. And I don't see them ever taking my uterus off the table because even if half the R candidates don't actually give a rats ass about my lady parts that same crowd knows that my body is still political fodder for winning elections. Fuck them.
My prediction for the national GOP is mirrored by what has happened to the GOP in CA. They will be greatly neutered at some fast approaching date such that they can't win national elections. They will be a regional party. Because the corporate machine still must be fed, you will begin to see even more Dems moderating who are very business friendly. And no, this is not a Dem compliment either.
This made me LOL.
They done come ta'Jesus a LOT already. That's what got them into this mess in the first place. They've been completely co-opted by far right Evangelicals.
They need to have a convo with the real Jesus this time.
WRT 2008, I don't think anyone was surprised by Obama winning over McCain. Obama over HRC, absolutely shocking. But after the Bush=Satan himself, no Republican was going to win the presidency.