That is not true. There was a huge outpouring over sandy hook and those were human children. That happened to look like the majority. People saw those kids faces and said "that could have been my child" and we're rocked by that. 9 black people gunned down in a church, none of which their characters were tarnished had outrage from the black community. People didn't see them and say "that could have been my mother" they didn't feel the same. It is not because it is easy to sympathize with animals vs humans. It is easy to sympathize with humans that look like you than those that do not. Trying to weave this complicated narrative that is supposed to demonstrate some innate love humans have for animals to justify the disparate responses is a distraction. I don't think it is intentional on your part, but I while-heartedly disagree.
Ok, that's actually a really good point too though. I think we evaluate children in the same way we evaluate animals. They are innocent across the board, deserving of our protection, whereas adults must pass our internal "test" that determines if we should be outraged about their death or not.
I'm not really trying to justify the disparate responses- I swear. I think it's total bullshit that white america dismisses these deaths.
Children are innocent if they are white though. When Tamir was killed, he too was assigned the "how he should have behaved" in order to not get shot. He shouldn't have pointed a gun even if it was an airsoft gun.
Black kids are only innocent probably up to age 10. After puberty hits, they are just as guilty of blackness as all the rest of us.
I wasn't outraged by the killing of the lion itself. I'm more outraged by the systemic exploitation of Africa by white westerners.
Yes. This particular case is especially henious. It's not just that he killed a lion, which is legal under certain circumstances in Zimbabwe, but he lured a protected lion out of his preserve, shot him, wounded him, let him live injured for 40 hours, then finally killed him, then TRIED TO DESTROY THE LIONS ELECTRONIC TRACKER, so he wouldn't get caught. Then beheaded, skinned, and left the carcass to rot. He was in flagrant violation of Zimbabwe's laws and protocol on this. But when does western white man ever give a shit about Africa and their system governance? Their system of order? Just exploit, kill, take, rinse and repeat. Centuries upon centuries of the same western mentality.
I would also like to add that he sees himself as a white savior, because hunting is SOOO good for lions and conservation efforts. PLUS, he blamed it on the shady natives who lied about having permits or whatever.
Africa=exotic, but lions= cute/majestic exotic and black people=scary exotic.
I lied, I'mma let you finish but I think it's a goddamn shame when a bunch of black women on here, who you have called friends, are saying they are feeling some kind of way about this and the reaction you have is to tell them why they're wrong.
You know what, you're right. I'm sorry that I did this. I didn't mean to be dismissive of how you all feel about this and I should have been more sensitive in what I was saying.
I agree with what underwaterrhymes was saying about the comparison with Kony2012. I completely agree that there is a HUGE racial component here and that there are several reasons why my newsfeed isnt blowing up with posts about police brutality, modern day racism, etc (besides the people on this board).
I think one of those reasons is just sheer laziness, for lack of a better word. I CAN do something about racism in American society. I can't change the whole system, but I can do something. I can discuss the issues and the individual incidents. I can teach my children about it. I can vote for politicians who support policies that I think help black people rather than punish them (thinking of things like affirmative action, mandatory jail sentences etc). And so on. But that requires two things - first, reflecting on my beliefs and opinions and looking at our society and acknowledging the issues, and then actually doing those things I listed. It takes effort.
Posting about Cecil the lion, or Kony2012, etc - that doesnt really take effort. That's me clicking "Share" on my facebook and knowing that probably no one is going to argue with me or push back on it.
So I think for many Americans, if they think about two incidents (Sam DuBose vs Cecil the lion) they would probably say they care more about the former. (maybe not the majority of Americans, but probably more than you might think). But it's harder to care about sam dubose. its harder to share his story on Facebook. etc. So I think that impacts what shows up on social media.
Now that is not saying that I think it is right or that I dont think people should share about police killings, but I think a lot of it is just being lazy and taking the easy way out.
I also acknowledge that it is a privilege for white america to be able to take the easy way out in this regard.
I agree. I'll even say - I posted about this exact issue last night. I generally shy away from posting much other than pictures and some occasional updates about what I'm doing. But I posted about this because I'm really upset by the video of DuBose and everything that has been going on and I feel like people need to be talking about it more.
I had a hard time figuring out what to say to accurately express myself, though, and I actually had nightmares last night about my cousins yelling at me and having huge fights over what I posted. I mean, boo hoo right? Poor white woman had a bad dream, who cares. I don't. But I'm just trying to illustrate that it's uncomfortable to post about things and I hope that that's the reason why a lot of us don't. We don't know how and don't feel comfortable doing it.
HOWEVER. I feel strongly that it doesn't matter if we're uncomfortable, and I'm purposely pushing myself to look beyond my own discomfort and talk about it anyway. So - while I can understand why people don't post, I do wish they would anyway.
I am disappointed that my post only got about 14 "likes" while when I changed my profile picture the other day, I got more like 30. Not sure if that's because people like a picture of me in front of a waterfall more than they like angry me, or if people genuinely don't care. Knowing the majority of people on my facebook friends list, I hope it's the former.
eclaires I feel like you are part of a small few of proactive people on my Facebook feed. Like you said it's the general apathy. I feel like "ugh come on guys, this shit is important, this is the world we're leaving for our kids!!" I also feel other than my children and my church, Facebook is the only way to stand up and make things heard. Even then, I feel it often just gets scrolled over and ignored. And I know my frustration pales in comparison as a white person.
I feel the same way...I notice what you post too and sometimes I just stop posting because it feels like I am posting to crickets or preaching to the choir. Then I go back to posting more but it is frustrating to see so much apathy or barely see anything.
Every time this comes up, I'm reminded by the apparent apathy of my facebook feed. The only thing I've seen about either of these stories is from people here and maybe 1-2 of my other FB friends who regularly post news articles and such. And anyone who posted about Cecil also posted about Sam DuBose and other current events.
I am not Facebook friends with you, but I have to ask - when you say that your feed has been pretty silent on these issues, are you referring to people who normally post about current events and political issues? If so, then I think your conclusion is correct. I just know a lot of people, myself included, who just generally don't post much in the way of politics or or current events on Facebook.
I agree with what underwaterrhymes was saying about the comparison with Kony2012. I completely agree that there is a HUGE racial component here and that there are several reasons why my newsfeed isnt blowing up with posts about police brutality, modern day racism, etc (besides the people on this board).
I think one of those reasons is just sheer laziness, for lack of a better word. I CAN do something about racism in American society. I can't change the whole system, but I can do something. I can discuss the issues and the individual incidents. I can teach my children about it. I can vote for politicians who support policies that I think help black people rather than punish them (thinking of things like affirmative action, mandatory jail sentences etc). And so on. But that requires two things - first, reflecting on my beliefs and opinions and looking at our society and acknowledging the issues, and then actually doing those things I listed. It takes effort.
Posting about Cecil the lion, or Kony2012, etc - that doesnt really take effort. That's me clicking "Share" on my facebook and knowing that probably no one is going to argue with me or push back on it.
So I think for many Americans, if they think about two incidents (Sam DuBose vs Cecil the lion) they would probably say they care more about the former. (maybe not the majority of Americans, but probably more than you might think). But it's harder to care about sam dubose. its harder to share his story on Facebook. etc. So I think that impacts what shows up on social media.
Now that is not saying that I think it is right or that I dont think people should share about police killings, but I think a lot of it is just being lazy and taking the easy way out.
I also acknowledge that it is a privilege for white america to be able to take the easy way out in this regard.
I agree. I'll even say - I posted about this exact issue last night. I generally shy away from posting much other than pictures and some occasional updates about what I'm doing. But I posted about this because I'm really upset by the video of DuBose and everything that has been going on and I feel like people need to be talking about it more.
I had a hard time figuring out what to say to accurately express myself, though, and I actually had nightmares last night about my cousins yelling at me and having huge fights over what I posted. I mean, boo hoo right? Poor white woman had a bad dream, who cares. I don't. But I'm just trying to illustrate that it's uncomfortable to post about things and I hope that that's the reason why a lot of us don't. We don't know how and don't feel comfortable doing it.
HOWEVER. I feel strongly that it doesn't matter if we're uncomfortable, and I'm purposely pushing myself to look beyond my own discomfort and talk about it anyway. So - while I can understand why people don't post, I do wish they would anyway.
I am disappointed that my post only got about 14 "likes" while when I changed my profile picture the other day, I got more like 30. Not sure if that's because people like a picture of me in front of a waterfall more than they like angry me, or if people genuinely don't care. Knowing the majority of people on my facebook friends list, I hope it's the former.
I don't post much on Facebook anyway, but when I think of posting about these issues, I know I'll get comment from some of my husband's family. I think it's important to address those, but many of them are lawyers, and always seem to out-debate me. I then feel that I've let the issue down because anyone following the conversation will have a hard time agreeing with me.
I tend to post more on twitter though.
I will say that I am getting better at initiating and constructing these discussions - and it's all thanks to lurking here. So thank you.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
Every time this comes up, I'm reminded by the apparent apathy of my facebook feed. The only thing I've seen about either of these stories is from people here and maybe 1-2 of my other FB friends who regularly post news articles and such. And anyone who posted about Cecil also posted about Sam DuBose and other current events.
I am not Facebook friends with you, but I have to ask - when you say that your feed has been pretty silent on these issues, are you referring to people who normally post about current events and political issues? If so, then I think your conclusion is correct. I just know a lot of people, myself included, who just generally don't post much in the way of politics or or current events on Facebook.
I am not sure... it has been quiet from some people who do usually post about these things, but I also have a bunch of good friends from high school and college who never post anything about the news. I know two of them are teachers and one in particular teaches an AP government class and a current events class (the other teacher is his wife) and I know they both purposefully do not post anything (to remain neutral since it's a small community and they know and are friends with a lot of people) but keep up with stuff. I guess it's probably a split of people who just don't think it's the appropriate venue and people who genuinely don't know. I used to give good friends the benefit of the doubt about it, but I've paid closer attention when we hang out now and I truly think they just don't pay attention to the news and/or don't give a shit.
I am not Facebook friends with you, but I have to ask - when you say that your feed has been pretty silent on these issues, are you referring to people who normally post about current events and political issues? If so, then I think your conclusion is correct. I just know a lot of people, myself included, who just generally don't post much in the way of politics or or current events on Facebook.
I am not sure... it has been quiet from some people who do usually post about these things, but I also have a bunch of good friends from high school and college who never post anything about the news. I know two of them are teachers and one in particular teaches an AP government class and a current events class (the other teacher is his wife) and I know they both purposefully do not post anything (to remain neutral since it's a small community and they know and are friends with a lot of people) but keep up with stuff. I guess it's probably a split of people who just don't think it's the appropriate venue and people who genuinely don't know. I used to give good friends the benefit of the doubt about it, but I've paid closer attention when we hang out now and I truly think they just don't pay attention to the news and/or don't give a shit.
Yeah, I was surprised when I went to the salon about an hour after the SCOTUS marriage equality case came out and neither the hairdresser nor the nail tech knew the decision was out that day. And the hairdresser asked, "So does this apply to all the states?" I was gobsmacked. It was a good reminder that a lot of people don't pay attention to the world around them.
I just know that I also have a lot of friends who I've talked to about issues before but don't post about anything remotely controversial on FB, sometimes for personal reasons and sometimes for professional reasons. So I don't take their silence as apathy, but obviously that is not the case with everyone.
I am not sure... it has been quiet from some people who do usually post about these things, but I also have a bunch of good friends from high school and college who never post anything about the news. I know two of them are teachers and one in particular teaches an AP government class and a current events class (the other teacher is his wife) and I know they both purposefully do not post anything (to remain neutral since it's a small community and they know and are friends with a lot of people) but keep up with stuff. I guess it's probably a split of people who just don't think it's the appropriate venue and people who genuinely don't know. I used to give good friends the benefit of the doubt about it, but I've paid closer attention when we hang out now and I truly think they just don't pay attention to the news and/or don't give a shit.
Yeah, I was surprised when I went to the salon about an hour after the SCOTUS marriage equality case came out and neither the hairdresser nor the nail tech knew the decision was out that day. And the hairdresser asked, "So does this apply to all the states?" I was gobsmacked. It was a good reminder that a lot of people don't pay attention to the world around them.
I just know that I also have a lot of friends who I've talked to about issues before but don't post about anything remotely controversial on FB, sometimes for personal reasons and sometimes for professional reasons. So I don't take their silence as apathy, but obviously that is not the case with everyone.
I used to be like, "well maybe they just don't post about it on facebook!" because I do really like these people and I generally figure they aren't much different than I am. And because I'm a weirdo, I started trying to figure out which it was. Some are definitely just not active facebook posters. Others truly don't pay attention. I am almost 100% sure my best friend/college roommate doesn't even vote. Her parents never did which I thought was super fucking weird (her mom is a school principal and is well educated).
I don't get it, but I'm not sure there is a polite way to even inquire as to why or how you reside in a bubble and don't care.
Post by fuckyourcouch on Jul 30, 2015 14:31:16 GMT -5
A friend who is vegan posted a rant saying that if you eat animal products you're a hypocrite because any killing is still killing. I commented with the same sentiment many in here have offered - the real hypocrisy is the outrage over this but not police brutality, mass shootings, etc. it's certainly possible to care about both issues, but you just don't see the same outcry. And then one of her fb friends commented that the real hypocrites are anyone that doesn't oppose abortion because that's murder too. Just when I thought the vegans outdid everyone :/
And damn, I'm really sorry for how some of you have felt dismissed in this thread.
I can't even believe there is arguing about this. How is a lion more important, or even equal to human lives? I get that as a country, it is easier for the collective "us" to talk about mistreatment of animals than the fact that racism is still alive and widespread. This needs to be a look in the mirror moment though. I love animals and all, but damn, these stories are not even REMOTELY close in importance.
Every time this comes up, I'm reminded by the apparent apathy of my facebook feed. The only thing I've seen about either of these stories is from people here and maybe 1-2 of my other FB friends who regularly post news articles and such. And anyone who posted about Cecil also posted about Sam DuBose and other current events.
I am not Facebook friends with you, but I have to ask - when you say that your feed has been pretty silent on these issues, are you referring to people who normally post about current events and political issues? If so, then I think your conclusion is correct. I just know a lot of people, myself included, who just generally don't post much in the way of politics or or current events on Facebook.
That's me too. I never post about current events or politics. That's not why I'm on FB. But everyone who knows me IRL and has seen me in the last week is well aware of my opinion on Sam DuBose (and the Donald, the other subject I keep talking about) because I have zero qualms about sharing my thoughts in person. Sometimes FB is a great indicator of what a person thinks on a range of issues, and sometimes it's not. I have definitely seen some people post a bunch of Cecil stuff and other CEP things, and say nothing about blacklivesmatter, etc. I think it's valid to sideeye that. And I also agree never posting about CEP things could be the result of apathy, or ignorance. But it's not always that.
I am not Facebook friends with you, but I have to ask - when you say that your feed has been pretty silent on these issues, are you referring to people who normally post about current events and political issues? If so, then I think your conclusion is correct. I just know a lot of people, myself included, who just generally don't post much in the way of politics or or current events on Facebook.
That's me too. I never post about current events or politics. That's not why I'm on FB. But everyone who knows me IRL and has seen me in the last week is well aware of my opinion on Sam DuBose (and the Donald, the other subject I keep talking about) because I have zero qualms about sharing my thoughts in person. Sometimes FB is a great indicator of what a person thinks on a range of issues, and sometimes it's not. I have definitely seen some people post a bunch of Cecil stuff and other CEP things, and say nothing about blacklivesmatter, etc. I think it's valid to sideeye that. And I also agree never posting about CEP things could be the result of apathy, or ignorance. But it's not always that.
I'm kind of on this train of thought as well re: FB. Part of my problem is that if I post anything overtly political online (under my actual name) it could cause problems at work. At the same time, I fully believe that at least 50% of what most people post is pure bullshit. So I have a hard time (with some exceptions) with taking their posts at face value. Now of course some people are genuine assholes and should be called out, and that is a topic I have been thinking about quite a bit lately so the board can totally flame me for my inaction in those instances right now. I deserve that criticism.
With that said, I have never held back in a face-to-face conversation and people know that. People can't ignore you as easily in person when called out on their baloney.
The other thing is, let's be honest, Facebook sucks as an app. I miss half the stuff my friends and family post simply because the app shows me what it thinks I want to see. Hence why I see the 4-day old post by a friend talking about their new ugly tattoo over and over and over again. So even if my friends and family are talking about this stuff, I may never see it without real effort to seek it out.
I am not Facebook friends with you, but I have to ask - when you say that your feed has been pretty silent on these issues, are you referring to people who normally post about current events and political issues? If so, then I think your conclusion is correct. I just know a lot of people, myself included, who just generally don't post much in the way of politics or or current events on Facebook.
That's me too. I never post about current events or politics. That's not why I'm on FB. But everyone who knows me IRL and has seen me in the last week is well aware of my opinion on Sam DuBose (and the Donald, the other subject I keep talking about) because I have zero qualms about sharing my thoughts in person. Sometimes FB is a great indicator of what a person thinks on a range of issues, and sometimes it's not. I have definitely seen some people post a bunch of Cecil stuff and other CEP things, and say nothing about blacklivesmatter, etc. I think it's valid to sideeye that. And I also agree never posting about CEP things could be the result of apathy, or ignorance. But it's not always that.
I need to catch up on this thread but it seems like the right place to jump in. I did do a quick survey of my FB feed yesterday. Not one mention of Sam Dubose. Lots of mentions of the lion. It made me ashamed.
I posted a status about Sam Dubose, and my very liberal husband actually told me he thought it was inappropriate. I asked him why - he said (essentially) that it was appropriating an issue that isn't mine. That my expression of anger and disgust, a feeling of this is NOT RIGHT, could be offensive to black people. I came back at him with "how are black people supposed to fix this problem alone? If we don't speak up how do we engage the people who are PART of the PROBLEM?"
So I think it's possible that there are well intentioned white people who don't really feel empowered (el oh fucking el) to speak out.
Wait till he hears I want to put a #blacklivesmatter lawn sign in our yard.
I need to catch up on this thread but it seems like the right place to jump in. I did do a quick survey of my FB feed yesterday. Not one mention of Sam Dubose. Lots of mentions of the lion. It made me ashamed.
I posted a status about Sam Dubose, and my very liberal husband actually told me he thought it was inappropriate. I asked him why - he said (essentially) that it was appropriating an issue that isn't mine. That my expression of anger and disgust, a feeling of this is NOT RIGHT, could be offensive to black people. I came back at him with "how are black people supposed to fix this problem alone? If we don't speak up how do we engage the people who are PART of the PROBLEM?"
So I think it's possible that there are well intentioned white people who don't really feel empowered (el oh fucking el) to speak out.
Wait till he hears I want to put a #blacklivesmatter lawn sign in our yard.
Girl, send your husband here. We'll happily set him straight on what is appropriation and what isn't. Tryin' to Rachel you..HAVE A SEAT, SON.
He shut up when I asked the question though - he's got the right mentality - he just needs to find his voice.
I think one of those reasons is just sheer laziness, for lack of a better word. I CAN do something about racism in American society. I can't change the whole system, but I can do something. I can discuss the issues and the individual incidents. I can teach my children about it. I can vote for politicians who support policies that I think help black people rather than punish them (thinking of things like affirmative action, mandatory jail sentences etc). And so on. But that requires two things - first, reflecting on my beliefs and opinions and looking at our society and acknowledging the issues, and then actually doing those things I listed. It takes effort.
Posting about Cecil the lion, or Kony2012, etc - that doesnt really take effort. That's me clicking "Share" on my facebook and knowing that probably no one is going to argue with me or push back on it.
I keep coming back to this - it's true that in some ways having the option to DO something makes it less likely for someone TO do it - whining aboug insurmountable problems (like the fact I'm evidently going to die in an earthquake soon) absolves one of responsibility to do something.
But ffs, we're talking about social media. The bar is fucking low. If 10% of the white people who gave a shit did something as SIMPLE as posting a status expressing their anger, outrage, or inviting people to a conversation - that would go a HUGE long way. Starting, having, and engaging in conversation about injustice is low hanging fruit. And it can make a difference. So it's baffling that people would choose to winge over something they have FAR less of a chance of actually doing about than, ya know, DOING something.
And sure, social medial is just social media. But we're on page four talking about it, we are on it, and it's a dominant mode of community conversation. Facebook's app might suck; people might not post about politics; those are all excuses -- if we see a void in the most dominant, public, and easily accessible communications platform ever known -- why wouldn't we fill it?
And don't think I am not noting all 30 of y'all liking this "you can care about more than one thing at once."
I thank TTT for her apology, but all the rest of y'all who were acting basic or silently nodding along are on my fucking spreadsheet.
I liked it before I realized what was going on in the thread. I feel it's disingenuous to take back that like. I've read everything and I understand the viewpoints expressed now.
And don't think I am not noting all 30 of y'all liking this "you can care about more than one thing at once."
I thank TTT for her apology and others for listening even if they didn't get it at first, but all the rest of y'all who kept acting basic or silently nodding along are on my fucking spreadsheet.
And don't think I am not noting all 30 of y'all liking this "you can care about more than one thing at once."
I thank TTT for her apology and others for listening even if they didn't get it at first, but all the rest of y'all who kept acting basic or silently nodding along are on my fucking spreadsheet.
Shit. Am I on the spreadsheet?
You've been on the spreadsheet for your one night of drunk shenanigans. We're watching you.
And don't think I am not noting all 30 of y'all liking this "you can care about more than one thing at once."
I thank TTT for her apology, but all the rest of y'all who were acting basic or silently nodding along are on my fucking spreadsheet.
I liked it before I realized what was going on in the thread. I feel it's disingenuous to take back that like. I've read everything and I understand the viewpoints expressed now.
Same here, and because I had just had the same convo with crazy vegan that just because I'm sad about Cecil doesn't mean I don't care about other issues, ensuing abortion craziness. I just want everyone to quit being crazy assholes, man.
Post by Velar Fricative on Jul 30, 2015 20:31:24 GMT -5
Just wanted to say that I'm here reading. I'm not on FB as much these days and didn't notice a huge amount of outrage re: Cecil. I understand and share the frustration and sadness when comparing the different levels of outrage. Even when there's video proof that a black man was murdered, people bury their heads in the sand.
I liked it before I realized what was going on in the thread. I feel it's disingenuous to take back that like. I've read everything and I understand the viewpoints expressed now.
That's why I changed it to kept doing it. Because I know some folks listened and got it as the convo progressed. So it would not be fair to those who did to just leave it at the 30 folks who liked it.
Actually my spreadsheet consists of people who don't act brand new when it comes to this stuff. For example you would never hear cville saying side eye worthy shit when it comes to this stuff.
This makes me happy and I hope he gets charged. I have some assholes on FB (who hunt, go figure) thinking this is no big deal, and just a first world problem.
I've been trying to process my thoughts on all of this. The lack of attention these cases have gotten is tragic and I can see how the comparative outrage over a lion is like salt in the wound. I wouldn't want to invalidate those feelings. I think the response is often to turn it to yourself as an individual even though the complaint is more about society as a whole. I feel like it is fine to care about more than one issue, but the problem here is that many (most) people don't seem to care about African American lives.
As a person who cares a lot about animal welfare and conservation I will admit that I'm quick to get defensive. I'm regularly challenged about how much those issues matter compared to various human welfare issues. When comparisons are made like in the original tweet it almost feels like an issue I care about deeply gets thrown under the bus. I suppose caring about conservation and animal welfare might be an example of privilege though. I don't know.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
This makes me happy and I hope he gets charged. I have some assholes on FB (who hunt, go figure) thinking this is no big deal, and just a first world problem.
Post by penguingrrl on Jul 31, 2015 9:23:28 GMT -5
I wanted to say that I'm reading and nodding along. I've been really bothered that DuBose got no attention in my newsfeed at all, but Cecil did. I just don't get it. I will say that I did have several friends on my feed who did post about both and I have a lot of people I'm close with who are constantly discussing racial issues, which is heartening.
That said, I am part of the problem. I don't post anything political or CE related on my facebook page and haven't in a long time because H and I are both on the job market and I don't want anything to prevent us from getting jobs. I feel really guilty that I don't stand up for what's right in favor of getting work, but we've been underpaid for so long that I'm afraid of alienating a potential employer in any way. I feel like an asshole saying that, though.