That's exactly the point. If you were uninformed, you might find Bernie to be a likable guy and choose him. You are informed and understand that she is smarter and more capable. People who choose not to inform themselves or think critically may not make the same choice.
Just because I don't agree with you about Bernie being more capable or as smart as Hillary doesn't mean I don't think critically about the issues, it means we have used different criteria to define those things.
Uh, ok? I said some MAY not make the same choice. There are supporters of literally every candidate who are well-informed and believe they are making the best choice.
That's exactly the point. If you were uninformed, you might find Bernie to be a likable guy and choose him. You are informed and understand that she is smarter and more capable. People who choose not to inform themselves or think critically may not make the same choice.
Bernie is an idea man! He's always been a thinker and always will. And that's a great thing! But idea men (especially those who've never been taken seriously) are not skilled in bringing those ides to fruition. They rely on other people to see the brilliance of their ideas and do it for them, while they remain removed in an advisor role. Bernie is no different. He's spent DECADES worth of energy thinking up and focusing ideas, and his supporters seem too politically naive to understand and the difference between a thinker and a doer. They look at the thinker and expect them to do, and Bernie....just can't.
I love his ideas. But I live in England where free education went away (it wasn't sustainable) and where the NHS (free health care) is under fire and struggling. England is so very much like the US in so many ways and I can't see how such a bigger country, with all its educational issues in just K-9, and with the differences it does have to actually do the things Bernie is hoping for. I would be so much more for Bernie if his platform was about revamping and putting money into K-12 years, making university more AFFORDABLE (not free) and working toward a single-payer system by working with what is already there. I would be more interested if it wasn't always just an attack on Wall Street (which, by the way, is where my retirement fund is sitting, so I'd like to keep having that money available as would many others) and "the Establishment". I would like Bernie more if he actually had stood up and said that we need to focus on how to support all the Democrats in all the states so that we can get them elected and do things who are different from straight white males. And finally, I'd honestly support Bernie if his numbers worked in any way shape or form, and if he had actually worked WITH OTHERS to get things done - it's how politics work. And he hasn't.
I know several wicked smart Bernie supporters. Some even know how politics work.
Listen to Ezra Klein's podcast with Robert Reich.
I don't agree with them, but acting as though they are unintelligent doesn't help.
Exactly. Y'all know hating Bernie sanders is my part time job, but acting like all his supporters are uninformed lemmings isn't a good look. Let's leave the condescension to the Bernie Bros.
Bernie's platform is not unintelligent - it's compassionate, focused on income inequality, universal healthcare, affordable/free higher education, and being a champion for the little guy. If you focus on that only, it's progressive and focused. I see a lot of my teacher/educator friends loving his idealism and focusing on that, but they are also people who also see the same idealism in their students, so it's not that big of a stretch. I equate them with the side of Bernie you see in the hippie-like Bernie ads about bringing people together and his calm NPR chats - like I heard yesterday morning on the radio.
The Bernie Bros (women and men)I have in my life are louder, more sucked into USUncut crap, anti-establishment, and usually are the uninformed ones about the political process. They are not uninformed about all areas in their life, but to me they feel like they are brand new to this. I equate them with identifying more won't finger-wagging angry debate Bernie and his stupid campaign manager's anti- HRC Sunday political show rants. I am most frustrated with these people for acting brand new, not unintelligent.
None of this hinders on overall intelligence of my friends/family, but I also talk with outright happy Trump supporters and feel like I judge them much more and harshly.
Bernie's platform is not unintelligent - it's compassionate, focused on income inequality, universal healthcare, affordable/free higher education, and being a champion for the little middle class white guy. If you focus on that only, it's progressive and focused. I see a lot of my teacher/educator friends loving his idealism and focusing on that, but they are also people who also see the same idealism in their students, so it's not that big of a stretch. I equate them with the side of Bernie you see in the hippie-like Bernie ads about bringing people together and his calm NPR chats - like I heard yesterday morning on the radio.
The Bernie Bros (women and men)I have in my life are louder, more sucked into USUncut crap, anti-establishment, and usually are the uninformed ones about the political process. They are not uninformed about all areas in their life, but to me they feel like they are brand new to this. I equate them with identifying more won't finger-wagging angry debate Bernie and his stupid campaign manager's anti- HRC Sunday political show rants. I am most frustrated with these people for acting brand new, not unintelligent.
None of this hinders on overall intelligence of my friends/family, but I also talk with outright happy Trump supporters and feel like I judge them much more and harshly.
FTFY
I have a ton of anti Bernie positions but my primary overwhelming rejection of him stems from his ignorance and wholesale dismissal of issues relating to race and poverty, and no, I don't view free or affordable college as a fix for either of those issues. College could be free all day but until quality low cost education is available to everyone preschool through 12th grade, college will still only be within reach of those who already have access, albeit at the cost of crippling debt.
Bernie wants to alleviate debt for the educated middle class. Eveyone else can pretty much go fuck themselves.
Post by imobviouslystaying on May 6, 2016 4:54:35 GMT -5
Oh and I don't think universal healthcare does much to address poverty and racism either.
But here are somethings I think would:
affordable housing affordable vocational training universal free daycare/preschool/pre k programs quality and accessible k-12 education
And as a bonus, if you do these things and address the rising costs of college, you wouldn't need college to be free.
It's vitally important to have a population with a minimum education standard and to get those people into the job force, whether it be courtesy of a four year degree or a completed apprenticeship.
And it would help if once you got into the workforce you did not find your income negated by the cost of housing or childcare.
I have a ton of anti Bernie positions but my primary overwhelming rejection of him stems from his ignorance and wholesale dismissal of issues relating to race and poverty, and no, I don't view free or affordable college as a fix for either of those issues. College could be free all day but until quality low cost education is available to everyone preschool through 12th grade, college will still only be within reach of those who already have access, albeit at the cost of crippling debt.
Bernie wants to alleviate debt for the educated middle class. Eveyone else can pretty much go fuck themselves.
Stop getting me thinking more about ECE and K-12 public education - I'm too much in agreement with your statements. Now I'm liable to start judging all the pro-Bernie public school teachers I know for not asking more from their candidate and also for accepting his free-college-talking point so openly.
I will confess to being a Bernie supporter. I don't talk about it much, except to clarify or correct issues related to this "Scandinavian utopia" I apparently live in.
For the most part, it's a vote of conscience for me. I'm a socialist, and as long as there is no socialist party candidate in my state, I will vote as far left as the Democratic Party will let me. I have always believed in a living wage, a flatter pay scale across professions, and far lower compensation for management and executive management (for multiple reasons). And I see the benefits and the shortcomings of the Scandinavian model on a daily basis. Would it work in the US, and do I think Sanders would be able to pull much of it off? No, but I believe that the first step is to start talking about it and to begin to destigmatize the ideology.
As for the political connections, after the last few years I am doubtful whether any president could get much done if the Congressional party majority swings the other direction. So I don't see it as a huge selling point.
That said, I would also consider myself a Clinton supporter and will happily vote for her in the general election. In fact, I will probably actively campaign for whoever gets the nomination, because I think they're both great candidates. I honestly don't understand why people seem to think that you have to pick a side rather than just a preference.
ETA - I'm about to head into a very long meeting, so it will be radio silence for a few hours.
Exactly. Y'all know hating Bernie sanders is my part time job, but acting like all his supporters are uninformed lemmings isn't a good look. Let's leave the condescension to the Bernie Bros.
Right? I'm kind of laughing at this thread. I mean, hell, we have educated, informed posters on this board who voted for Bernie. And that's fine. Let's not act like if Bernie supporters could just BE INFORMED and "see the light" then they would all come vote for HRC.
My issue is not that people prefer Bernie or voted for Bernie. My issue has more to do with the tone of his campaign/followers, the increasing sexism in his attacks against Clinton, and the fact that he plans on making her fight until the end and spend unnecessary money, considering she is pretty much guaranteed the nomination at this point.
In fact, one of the tone problems some of his supporters have been criticized for is saying that people of color don't vote for him only because they don't know about him and once they learn about him, they see how he's so much better. And that is condescending as fuck. Look, I will own that I can be condescending, but let's try not to be condescending as fuck. REIN THAT SHIT IN, PEOPLE!
I think it's quite possible to be very intelligent and educated but not understand really how the political system in this country works on a day to day basis.
I think many of Bernie's ideas are very appealing, and I agree with him on most issues. I almost certainly would have been a big supporter say, 10 or 15 years ago. But I've spent a lot of time in the past 10-15 years reading about, following, studying, experiencing the political process and how things work in DC, and it's because of that that I can't support Bernie. It's what leads me to believe that his ideas are great but unrealistic and politically untenable. If I didn't have that experience in my life, I would likely feel differently.
All of this plus a whole helping of "Bernie is one dimensional."
He's got great ideas in a few areas, but the debates and his record show he's woefully uninformed on a whole host of other issues. TBH a president can have great ideas and dreams:plans, but they are responsibld for executive leadership at the end of the day. You want to promote good ideas and socialist policies, then congress is the perfect place to actually advance that platform.
Post by 5kcandlesinthewind on May 6, 2016 9:11:21 GMT -5
I'm flippant as fuck on here about Bernie and how intensely I dislike him and don't understand how anyone can support him, but in reality, I do see the appeal of his platform and why his ideas are resonating. My real source of irritation is around the otherwise very smart people who are clinging to the delusion that he's going to somehow flip all the superdelegates and get the nomination because MANDATE, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics to talk through how he's somehow going to get all of his brilliant ideas through an obstructionist Congress when he's elected. That is when I start to question your ability to think critically.
I love his ideas. But I live in England where free education went away (it wasn't sustainable) and where the NHS (free health care) is under fire and struggling. England is so very much like the US in so many ways and I can't see how such a bigger country, with all its educational issues in just K-9, and with the differences it does have to actually do the things Bernie is hoping for. I would be so much more for Bernie if his platform was about revamping and putting money into K-12 years, making university more AFFORDABLE (not free) and working toward a single-payer system by working with what is already there. I would be more interested if it wasn't always just an attack on Wall Street (which, by the way, is where my retirement fund is sitting, so I'd like to keep having that money available as would many others) and "the Establishment". I would like Bernie more if he actually had stood up and said that we need to focus on how to support all the Democrats in all the states so that we can get them elected and do things who are different from straight white males. And finally, I'd honestly support Bernie if his numbers worked in any way shape or form, and if he had actually worked WITH OTHERS to get things done - it's how politics work. And he hasn't.
It makes me sad that Hillary's proposals for college so often go unmentioned. Like Bernie is the ONLY ONE WITH FREE COLLEGE! I actually PREFER Hillary's platform. She wants free COMMUNITY COLLEGE, and a set, low rate for ALL educational loans. I mean, Bernie wants free college, great, but what does that do to my loans? I mean, it can't really be retroactive. So I don't understand how people with high loans are all, 'I want Bernie so this will go away." That's not how it works. It's free GOING FORWARD. Or maybe he wants to make it retroactive. I don't know., BECAUSE HE HASN'T EXPLAINED IT TO ME.
As for Bernie supporters-I know plenty of smart, well informed supporters. We differ in pragmatism. My friend likes what he says. She has 0 belief he will get any of it done, but thinks it will change the conversation. I would prefer to get SOMETHING done, and I don't think Bernie can. He won't compromise (that is OBVIOUS in the primary alone) and he doesn't really have an accomplishable plan. I don't think this makes my friend dumb, or uninformed, it means we have different priorities and different manners of affecting change. She would rather have nothing for 4 years, but have the conversation shift, I would prefer incremental change.
You know, I think I slid in without ever taking this quiz, and it bothers me because as many times as it comes up I've never retained the right answer.Â
Sugar, refined processed sugar.
Seriously, there is no correct answer.
Actually the pastry pictures is an eclair which is not a contested pastry. And it's really as much egg as anything else. (Egg dough, custard filling)
I am pretty into politics and the only reason HRC is getting my vote is because I view her as more politically savvy to get things done. I don't necessarily find her more likable or her platform more appealing.
That's exactly the point. If you were uninformed, you might find Bernie to be a likable guy and choose him. You are informed and understand that she is smarter and more capable. People who choose not to inform themselves or think critically may not make the same choice.
This is condescending as fuck.
It also ignores that people use different metrics when voting and extremely well informed people will prioritize certain metrics ahead of others. I support Sanders because I don't actually think he's all that radical. He only looks radical because over the past 30 years, the conversation has gotten pulled so very far to the right that he looks like someone who is on the margins. I said this on FB yesterday, that Bernie is not proposing a revolution (even if he and his stupid Bernie Bros think he is). He is proposing a continuation of the FDR platforms. It's just not that radical. What I see is:
- people who look at HRC and align with her more closely; - people who are voting strategically (either for Bernie or for Hillary) because of the nuances of this specific election + the nuances of their specific state - people who are voting for Bernie because they are grown up children who like stomping their feet and would happily sign on for a revolution irrespective of the authenticity of it being an actual revolution. These are the kids you went to high school with who did their homework with a sharpie because FUCK YOU HIGH SCHOOL. These people have found a community with the Bernie Bros. - people who are voting for Bernie because they think he pulls the conversation to the left in a political era where "moderate" has been consistently recast as Librul. - people who are conservative themselves and voted for the exact GOP candidates that have created the political climate that gave rise to Trump and now want to distance themselves from their complicity in this current election cycle by voting for HRC - she is more liberal than they would like, but at least she's not a socialist and maybe a vote for her will help them earn back the intellectual credibility they lost by voting for GWB, McCain/Palin, and Romney.
Oh and I don't think universal healthcare does much to address poverty and racism either.
But here are somethings I think would:
affordable housing affordable vocational training universal free daycare/preschool/pre k programs quality and accessible k-12 education
And as a bonus, if you do these things and address the rising costs of college, you wouldn't need college to be free.
It's vitally important to have a population with a minimum education standard and to get those people into the job force, whether it be courtesy of a four year degree or a completed apprenticeship.
And it would help if once you got into the workforce you did not find your income negated by the cost of housing or childcare.
That's exactly the point. If you were uninformed, you might find Bernie to be a likable guy and choose him. You are informed and understand that she is smarter and more capable. People who choose not to inform themselves or think critically may not make the same choice.
This is condescending as fuck.
It also ignores that people use different metrics when voting and extremely well informed people will prioritize certain metrics ahead of others. I support Sanders because I don't actually think he's all that radical. He only looks radical because over the past 30 years, the conversation has gotten pulled so very far to the right that he looks like someone who is on the margins. I said this on FB yesterday, that Bernie is not proposing a revolution (even if he and his stupid Bernie Bros think he is). He is proposing a continuation of the FDR platforms. It's just not that radical. What I see is:
- people who look at HRC and align with her more closely; - people who are voting strategically (either for Bernie or for Hillary) because of the nuances of this specific election + the nuances of their specific state - people who are voting for Bernie because they are grown up children who like stomping their feet and would happily sign on for a revolution irrespective of the authenticity of it being an actual revolution. These are the kids you went to high school with who did their homework with a sharpie because FUCK YOU HIGH SCHOOL. These people have found a community with the Bernie Bros. - people who are voting for Bernie because they think he pulls the conversation to the left in a political era where "moderate" has been consistently recast as Librul. - people who are conservative themselves and voted for the exact GOP candidates that have created the political climate that gave rise to Trump and now want to distance themselves from their complicity in this current election cycle by voting for HRC - she is more liberal than they would like, but at least she's not a socialist and maybe a vote for her will help them earn back the intellectual credibility they lost by voting for GWB, McCain/Palin, and Romney.
This is fair. I apologize for thinking too narrowly and being condescending. Apology goes out to you too cookiemdough and anyone else I offended.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on May 6, 2016 11:04:32 GMT -5
I really hate that he focuses on free college but is basically (entirely?) silent on k-12 and apparently thinks pre-k is a women's issue. IMO, that's pretty inexcusible.
I really hate that he focuses on free college but is basically (entirely?) silent on k-12 and apparently thinks pre-k is a women's issue. IMO, that's pretty inexcusible.
Bernie would be much more appealing to a wider audience if he connected the dots with improving our k-12 and early education system, costs of childcare, etc., instead of just going off on wall street, big banks, free college tuition, etc.
I am actually blown away by how much people here support Hillary. The most focus-group sculpted candidate of our lifetime. It's so confusing.
My heart is Bernie or Bust, but I know what I'll have to do if she's the nominee. I'll hate myself for it, though. I have no idea how she'll govern. Probably center-right except for women's issues. I do not trust a single word that comes out of her mouth.
But even as a woman at risk of having her uterus ruled by the GOP, the issues Bernie has focused on are by far more important. Our entire way of life depends on a functioning economy and every day we don't reform it, the more probable it is that the US empire will fully crumble sooner rather than later.
I am actually blown away by how much people here support Hillary. The most focus-group sculpted candidate of our lifetime. It's so confusing.
My heart is Bernie or Bust, but I know what I'll have to do if she's the nominee. I'll hate myself for it, though. I have no idea how she'll govern. Probably center-right except for women's issues. I do not trust a single word that comes out of her mouth.
But even as a woman at risk of having her uterus ruled by the GOP, the issues Bernie has focused on are by far more important. Our entire way of life depends on a functioning economy and every day we don't reform it, the more probable it is that the US empire will fully crumble sooner rather than later.
Go read the article I just posted about Trump's understanding of the economy to ease your self-loathing. You may not like all of her policies, but she won't plunge us into global financial despair.
But even as a woman at risk of having her uterus ruled by the GOP, the issues Bernie has focused on are by far more important. Our entire way of life depends on a functioning economy and every day we don't reform it, the more probable it is that the US empire will fully crumble sooner rather than later.
I have one question for you, how is he going to implement his big ideals?