I do think Disney could have made this water less enticing and been a lot more clear that there is actual danger if you go in the water at all. I know it's Disney and the "happiest place on Earth" and they don't want to scare the tourists, but if there is a life-or-death situation possibly in the water, I think it's on them to make that clearer on their own property. Like others have suggested, instead of "no swimming" signs, maybe "STAY OUT OF WATER" signs or DANGER. To me, no swimming=no swimming, which doesn't necessarily mean I can't go IN the water even to my ankles.
It is a tragic, awful accident and I can't even imagine what the parents are going through right now. It is absolutely not their fault. And I am not blaming Disney that a gator was on their property because that would be stupid--gators can be anywhere in FL. But if they knew there was even a minuscule chance something dangerous was in the water, I do think they should have better signage or not make the water so easy to enter. Hopefully they'll improve that area going forward so this never happens again.
Post by mom2twoboys on Jun 15, 2016 9:53:32 GMT -5
So tragic and I can't imagine what that family is going through. Growing up in the south we were told not to go by any water at dusk and beyond because that is when alligators hunt. They need to have a sign warning people if they do not know this.
I wonder if people have been feeding them. There was a report from my old town in Texas of an alligator chasing people on the bayou. I would run and let my kids bike there all the time. It turns out kids have been feeding him and he started chasing people thinking they had food. They ended up having to kill him because he was so aggressive and was actively chasing someone.
I just hope that family can have some closure of what happened. They will be in my thoughts.
I would have probably let my child put their feet in. We went camping at a lake that said no swimming a few years ago and they sat in the sand and let the water splash them. I usually take it to mean "No lifeguard, don't sue us!". Disney definitely needs to put danger signs there, tourists have no clue about gators.
I can't imagine. The poor dad trying to fight the gator away and failing. omg.
Post by vanillacourage on Jun 15, 2016 10:09:00 GMT -5
Is this the beach in question? I searched for Grand Floridian beach and this is the first image result. If so, fuck, I would totally have assumed kids could build sandcastles and wade. There are pics online of kids doing just that.
JFC Disney, you don't bring in white sand and beach chairs and then get surprised when people treat it like a beach.
Is this the beach in question? I searched for Grand Floridian beach and this is the first image result. If so, fuck, I would totally have assumed kids could build sandcastles and wade. There are pics online of kids doing just that.
JFC Disney, you don't bring in white sand and beach chairs and then get surprised when people treat it like a beach.
Yep. We stayed at the Polynesian on the other side of that pond a few years ago and I had absolutely no idea there were gators in there.
To me, a "No Swimming" sign doesn't mean "stay out of the water." It means literally, do not go swimming. I probably would have let my kid wade in the pond. My 2-year old doesn't know how to swim anyway!
I mean, I get that it's Florida. But it's DISNEY. You don't think there would be a gator on a beach at the Grand Floridian, one of Disney's premiere resorts.
Same here.
"No swimming" to me would mean no swimming - not stay out of the water. Just like when beaches have red flags meaning not to go swimming but people still walk along the edge of the water, collect shells, etc
That poor baby and those poor parents. I can't even imagine. I would have never even THOUGHT about the potential of an aligator while at a resort in Disney.
Ditto this - if the water was completely off limits I would assume that the signs would be more specific. I don't assume that "no swimming" means don't even go near the water. I would look for signs that said "keep back "x" feet" or something.
I now assume that "no swimming" means don't touch the water.
I def. think "no swimming" is ambiguous. For a different reason, we have the same sort of problem at the Jersey shore. Unprotected beaches and those beaches that are protected but after hours say "no swimming" or "swim at your own risk". For those that are unprotected, there are a myriad of reasons why no swimming is posted. Sometimes it's as benign as there being no lifeguard. But other times, hidden rocks or jettys can be dangerous. Some have riptides that come on in an instant and have swept grown men to their death - men who were walking in ankle/calf deep water, NOT "swimming". There has been a major push to be more explicit with the warnings to include messaging to just stay out of the damn water all together bc it's so dangerous, because "swimming" is interpreted different ways by different people.
Is this the beach in question? I searched for Grand Floridian beach and this is the first image result. If so, fuck, I would totally have assumed kids could build sandcastles and wade. There are pics online of kids doing just that.
JFC Disney, you don't bring in white sand and beach chairs and then get surprised when people treat it like a beach.
Yeah - I admit I would have assumed that "no swimming" in that picture was because of the fact that there are no lifeguards, not that there were alligators.
When we booked our Disney trip, I talked with our agent about the beaches. I wanted a resort with a beach. I asked about the different ones that had beaches. She was pumping this one up as having the nicest one. She mentioned people don't really "swim" bc the lake water is kind of murky, but NEVER were alligators mentioned. I could have sworn she said wading was common. Lakes gross me out so swimming wasn't a concern (or wading, ew), I just wanted to lounge on sand beaches. They def present this resort as having a beachy feel.
Post by thebreakfastclub on Jun 15, 2016 10:54:57 GMT -5
My 3yo would totally want to walk in that water and run in and out, and I know I would have stood nearby while he got his feet wet. I don't blame these parents one bit.
To me, holding a park sponsored event on a beach implies safety that close to the shore. Not so much if they swam out 100 feet.
An animal expert on CNN today said that a 12' gator can swim with just 4" of its head visible and they seek prey at dusk. Perhaps the set up is not inherently unsafe, but maybe holding events in such close proximity during prime feeding hours is.
I definitely not placing blame but reading this post has me surprised at the different ways 'no swimming' is interpreted. In my experience, 'no swimming' means the bacteria counts are in the water are through the roof so don't even think of going near it or you will get sick. Seeing how every ones here interprets it really shows how this family may have been thinking.
Regardless of what their thoughts on the signs were this is so so terrible and I hate that their parenting is going to be put under question while they are mourning this horrible thing.
There is no way I would think that water was dangerous. As someone who lives and grew up way north, that is not a body of water I expect to find alligators
I definitely not placing blame but reading this post has me surprised at the different ways 'no swimming' is interpreted. In my experience, 'no swimming' means the bacteria counts are in the water are through the roof so don't even think of going near it or you will get sick. Seeing how every ones here interprets it really shows how this family may have been thinking.
Regardless of what their thoughts on the signs were this is so so terrible and I hate that their parenting is going to be put under question while they are mourning this horrible thing.
See and this wouldn't have ever entered my head.
I probably wouldn't assume because no lifeguard. Just because my experience is "swim at your own risk. No lifeguard on duty"
But I also wouldn't consider up to your ankles as swimming. I'd expect a "don't go in the water ever" type sign.
You can't have signs for every single danger every single place. They have signs up that say no swimming, they regularly patrol for alligators, you bet your butt they do everything they can to keep gators out. They didn't think it was a very large threat. Gators usually stay away from places with lots of people and lights. I've been to Disney many times. I've been on that beach before. Disney is so careful with safety, there is no WAY they thought an alligator that big would be there (I've seen small gators at Disney before). I mean, when you go a beach resort on Hawaii you don't see shark warning signs everywhere. But a shark attack can happen. I don't blame Disney at all. I don't blame the parents at all. This is a fucked up horrible accident.
Post by peachykate on Jun 15, 2016 11:29:49 GMT -5
The whole thing is terrible. In the 20+ times I've been there I have never seen someone in the water. We go to those movie nights, it's all just so awful to think about. I just read they are closing all the beaches for the foreseeable future.
In addition to the alligators, they closed the River Country(I think that's the name) Park years ago because of the deadly ameobas in the water. I read a little girl died but that's on the unofficial sites.
The whole thing was odd when I was up with Owen in the middle of the night. First there was no eye witnesses, they were sitting in their chairs, not sitting in their chairs, the toddler wandered off, he was with his parents. Conspiracy theory central.
I believe Disney is at fault to some degree. I know people who worked there and they told me Disney is trying really hard to make this place look magical and they won't post signs for possible dangers. It would remind people this is still real life.
If Florida + water = very likely a gator might be in the water, they should post signs everywhere warning people. But I bet they didn't do it because it would kill the magic. I hope they change their tune after this accident.
I have read ( before this) that the no swimming signs were put up about 20 years ago due to the amoeba in the water ( brain eating). I know that's why River Country was closed.
I have heard that LARGE gators being that close to the property is very rare, and therefore not a concern for Disney. I believe only one other gator attack has ever happened on property and it was at Ft Wilderness in 1986 ( the kid survived)
I always thought that the movies and fire pits and torches at the Poly would scare away the gators ( noise, lights,lots of people) .
Does anyone remember that article that was posted awhile ago about Nile Crocodiles being released and mating with Gators in Florida? I wonder if that has to due with the uptick in attacks. Am I crazy or was this a thing?
I don't think Disney would have spent $$$$$ building those overwater bungalows at The Poly & the beach side cabins at Wilderness Lodge ( not yet opened) if they had thought this would ever happen.
Now I am thinking of a popular spring here that has a swimming area roped off, but there are alligators on the other side of the river. I always mused about what kept them on that side of the rope.. knowing that the answer was obviously nothing. But we all swam in there anyway. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it. We also have tubing in the rivers, etc. The assumption is just that they're not all out there in the open areas with a lot of people and noise and splashing around.
I should probably lay off of Disney, given that having tourist attractions and even swimming in water where there are alligators is not exactly unheard of and alligator attacks are rare. I guess it bothers me more because it's such a major vacation destination and people from all over the world come there.
eta: Apparently the Spring does have this sign posted. I never really paid attention. etaa: it's also not deliberately designed to look like a beach at the ocean.
Tamb I've seen those exact signs in the springs we used to swim in. To me it was always like WTF, alligators are in the water, swim carefully??? How about alligators are in the water, stay the hell out! How does one swim with gators and use caution?
But it was the same thing with the roped off area and the notion that when people are splashing and creating noise in the roped off area a gator will stay away. They usually avoid people. But obviously this isn't always the case.
Admittedly the blase and breezy attitudes I encountered when I first moved to Florida as a teen came from other teens and later people in their 20s, mostly men. I moved away in my early 30s. I'm sure now as a middle aged woman if I still lived there, I'd be talking to other middle aged moms who are cautious and worried about gators. I just never felt like there was any real fear of gators. They were like the giant wolf spider. They are there and nothing you can do about them.
I can't find one bit of fault with these parents though. No swimming to me would mean no swimming as there is no lifeguard. I'd never think that meant no wading. Whether this is Disney's fault or not, they are going to have to take some different measures for the future, that's for sure.
I think Disney is at fault as much as the zoo was at fault. How long and no incidents in both cases? When we know better, we can do better. A 3 yo can scale a 3 foot wall and army crawl through 4 feet of bushes in under 30 seconds? Time to fix the barriers. A small child is grabbed by an alligator at the water's edge in a place that is assumed to be safe with no actual alligator/wildlife warning signs? Time to update you signage and make sure when people check into your resort that they know the risk of being by the water.
And I seriously can't shake this nauseated feeling each time I read a new update to this. DS is 2.5 and I probably wouldn't have let him in the water, but we definitely would have been close enough for a gator to lunge.
And not Monday morning quarterbacking, but you bet your ass I would have tried to stop the alligator. It wouldn't have worked and I know that, but my first instinct would be to protect my kid like his dad did (from the last report I had read.)
I have read ( before this) that the no swimming signs were put up about 20 years ago due to the amoeba in the water ( brain eating). I know that's why River Country was closed.
I have heard that LARGE gators being that close to the property is very rare, and therefore not a concern for Disney. I believe only one other gator attack has ever happened on property and it was at Ft Wilderness in 1986 ( the kid survived)
I always thought that the movies and fire pits and torches at the Poly would scare away the gators ( noise, lights,lots of people) .
Does anyone remember that article that was posted awhile ago about Nile Crocodiles being released and mating with Gators in Florida? I wonder if that has to due with the uptick in attacks. Am I crazy or was this a thing?
I don't think Disney would have spent $$$$$ building those overwater bungalows at The Poly & the beach side cabins at Wilderness Lodge ( not yet opened) if they had thought this would ever happen.
We stayed at the Wilderness Lodge this past September and wondered about the swimming in the lake, and whether it was ever allowed. We also wondered what the abandoned water park used to be. We did some "research" a la Google and also read about swimming being allowed until fairly recently (there were even pictures of people in the lake) and the brain eating amoeba.
I am heartbroken for that family, and I hope their son is found soon.
I just read an NPR article that said they've already found and euthanized 4 alligators in that lake since this happened (no evidence of the child still). It also said that Disney regularly searches the lakes for alligators and euthanizes them.
“Life is not orderly. No matter how we try to make it so, right in the middle of it lose a leg, fall in love, drop a jar of applesauce.” - Natalie Goldberg
Probably for the reason mentioned above. If you can blame someone, then there can be a REASON. I think it's human nature to want there to be a reason for something like this to have happened. If there's a reason for it, if someone is at fault, it probably makes people feel safer.
With that said, if you see a pool that says no swimming you aren't going to then proceed to wade and splash around in the shallow end, are you? Or even hang your legs in the water? Again, I am definitely NOT blaming the family. I see how this could happen and I see how there could have been things that were done to lessen the risk, but I really feel like this falls into the terrible accident category.
I don't know. I think they could have been more specific. Even "Do not enter water" or "danger" or something. But again, that might hurt Disney's bottom line. No swimming means no swimming. Looking at pictures of the "beach" only further enrages me.
It might have said something like that, I can't remember now. I just remember thinking that the girls should not go in the water at all. That was my impression. Same thing at the Yacht and Beach Club. Though my girls might not have been quite as far into the water as this little boy, they were pretty close looking for shells.
This is just a terrible, terrible tragedy. I am sure there will be major changes made, whether it is a fence at the shore line or getting rid of the beach area completely, I don't know, but I am sure something will happen.