So I'm supposed to come up with a new name for a phenomenon because some white Jewish girls see themselves in the stereotype of a basic bitch?
Go fuck yourself.
Maybe you are a basic bitch.
You realize this is the height of hypocrisy right? The stereotype is about someone who claims to be inclusive and liberal but really is close minded and only cares about herself.
I mean, whatever, KOKO, but you're not exactly "listening and learning" here.
(And a side note: Mary and John are NOT Jewish names. Mary is decidedly a New Testament name. Jonathan/Yonatan is a Jewish name, but Jews tend to go by Jack, not John.)
I've usually been impressed with the way delicate conversations on Israel have gone on this board but this is getting ugly. I think I need a board break.
That's not what a Becky or a Basic Bitch is.
Beckys aren't even trying to be inclusive or liberal. They're just white girls mostly blindly navigating spaces as if they own them alone.
Think of the Becky conversation that spurred the term.
And you're right. I'm not listening and learning from white folks who cannot see that in this context they are still white even if they are Jewish.
My point about the name Becky is that it and others like it have been coopted by white Christianity for generic western European use. Becky is a common name despite it's roots. It would be silly to presume that each Becky you meet is more likely to be Jewish than not.
To me much of these responses seem to be an active attempt to separate Jews in America as a whole from white privilege. And you don't get to do that. The worlds overlap. And if you're uncomfortable perhaps is because you might see how you live in those systems and often benefit from default whiteness but like Bernie Sanders don't want to look at it too closely.
You realize this is the height of hypocrisy right? The stereotype is about someone who claims to be inclusive and liberal but really is close minded and only cares about herself.
I mean, whatever, KOKO, but you're not exactly "listening and learning" here.
(And a side note: Mary and John are NOT Jewish names. Mary is decidedly a New Testament name. Jonathan/Yonatan is a Jewish name, but Jews tend to go by Jack, not John.)
I've usually been impressed with the way delicate conversations on Israel have gone on this board but this is getting ugly. I think I need a board break.
That's not what a Becky or a Basic Bitch is.
Beckys aren't even trying to be inclusive or liberal. They're just white girls mostly blindly navigating spaces as if they own them alone.
Think of the Becky conversation that spurred the term.
And you're right. I'm not listening and learning from white folks who cannot see that in this context they are still white even if they are Jewish.
My point about the name Becky is that it and others like it have been coopted by white Christianity for generic western European use. Becky is a common name despite it's roots. It would be silly to presume that each Becky you meet is more likely to be Jewish than not.
To me much of these responses seem to be an active attempt to separate Jews in America as a whole from white privilege. And you don't get to do that. The worlds overlap. And if you're uncomfortable perhaps is because you might see how you live in those systems and often benefit from default whiteness but like Bernie Sanders don't want to look at it too closely.
I've made it super clear in this and other threads that there is definite overlap between being Jewish and white privilege and we benefit from the color of our skin (in general, as Ashkenazi Jews. The situation is different for many Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews and there are incredible challenges for Jews of color.) But that doesn't discount the fact that anti-Semitism is real in this country, and in this thread. For example, this past year, the school my son is attending next year was evacuated because of a bomb threat in which the caller talked about the "blood of Jewish children being splattered on the walls." That happened. Steve Bannon, a white fucking Nationalist Nazi, is in the White House. He hates you. He hates me. He wants to destroy us all. He pulled his kid from a school because there were too many Jews. He calls Gary Cohen "globalist Gary" - that's anti-Semitic code that every Jew recognizes as "Jews control the money systems of the world."
So like I said, let's not play the Oppression Olympics. No one wants to win that shit.
This Becky issue is not seeing the forest for the trees.
I'm cry laughing/hyperventilating because I was literally planning on taking my kids to the Chicago Pride Parade today. We live in the neighborhood. It's a gay neighborhood and a Jewish neighborhood. The rabbi of our Orthodox synagogue is extremely outspoken in his support of gay rights. And yet when a gay woman tries to express her Judaism as part of her identity it's found as threatening??? That flag had nothing to do with Israel, it was an expression of her Jewish identity and her gay identity. Fuck this shit. We use the Star of David for other things too.
When Jewish identity gets untangled from Israeli politics, someone please call me.
I also can almost guarantee that this was done by a bunch of white liberals who claim to be anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian without actually doing much investigation into what that means.
When Jewish identity gets untangled from Israeli politics, someone please call me.
I also can almost guarantee that this was done by a bunch of white liberals who claim to be anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian without actually doing much investigation into what that means.
I just asked H, "when did Pro Palestine become synonymous with Anti Israel and anti Jew?"
When Jewish identity gets untangled from Israeli politics, someone please call me.
I also can almost guarantee that this was done by a bunch of white liberals who claim to be anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian without actually doing much investigation into what that means.
No shit. That article is so depressing. The Jewish community has long supported LGBT rights.
Post by goldengirlz on Jun 25, 2017 15:01:19 GMT -5
So I nearly derailed the thread earlier but I had a larger point that I wanted to make, and it's related.
In 1948, no one would have said the creation of Israel amounted to apartheid just because the land was set aside for a specific ethnic group. No one would have said that there an imbalance of power in the Jews' favor because they were (and, frankly, still are) a tiny blip of a nation surrounded by much larger, oil-rich nations that have tried to destroy Israel at least three times.
Israel wouldn't even be in the position of having "occupied territories" if those other countries hadn't launched a military campaign against it. Those other countries then closed their borders to refugees who might have sought to return. They get blame too.
But liberals have latched on to this apartheid idea as a battle between the wealthy (white) Israelis and the poor (brown) Muslims ... claiming parallels with our own treatment of POC. Now, I'm NOT saying Israel's hands have been entirely clean here. But 1) from a racial perspective, Israelis and Palestinians are closer than most people think. 2) The power dynamic is not entirely straightforward. Are innocent civilians caught in the middle? I don't think anyone on this thread is saying they aren't. But this is not AT ALL like the Americans "stealing" land from the Native Americans. The Israelis were not conquerors. They were driven from their land into the diaspora and when that didn't end so well for them (remember how we even got here: the Holocaust), the land was then returned to them by the British, which was the nation in charge at the time. They had to get strong because it was the only way they could survive. Were they supposed to just let the Arabs attack them three times? Are they supposed to do nothing in the face of terrorist attacks? (Like the U.S. would ever do THAT.)
Anyway. I suspect people are funny about Jewish wealth and power just like they're funny about any minority group gaining wealth and power. We've talked about this in the context of black people. And I suspect that's where the term "JAP" comes from and I suspect that's why the term "apartheid" gets thrown around. It's to put us in our place.
Funny how the dissent from the black women within this thread has been dismissed.
Do you really think this is because the dissent is coming from black women?
ETA: The major issue in this thread is the use of the term "apartheid state". No one has said that Palestinians are not experiencing serious issues because of Israeli policies. No one has said that they back the policies and actions of the Israeli government at the expense of the human rights of Palestinians. No one has disagreed that Israel is engaging in some shitty things.
Not one Jewish poster here said, "Fuck Palestinians! Too bad, so sad!" To one degree or another, we have all said that we are not supportive of the ill treatment that Palestinians in the occupied territories are receiving. We've all said, in one way or another, that we want to know more about what Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza experience because that is a side of the story we're not getting in the U.S.
We were lucky enough have a poster who was brave enough to present a Palestinian side. This thread got off on the stupidest tangent about what it means to be a "Becky" and what was really important - hearing each other's side - got lost.
I appreciate your dedication to standing up for the oppressed. I really do. But this isn't a black and white issue. There are aggressors and victims on both sides. There are serious political games being played and both political sides want a larger piece of a tiny pie. The people caught in the middle are ordinary Israelis and Palestinians. But we can't talk about that, because we get waylaid by terminology that a) inaccurately describes a delicate and complicated situation and b) shuts down a conversation before it even begins.
But go ahead and make this all about how we're ignoring the dissenting black woman's point of view.
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 25, 2017 17:04:10 GMT -5
Oh jeez. The Becky thing. Yall brought that up. The white liberal hipocrasy. Yall brought that up too. (Nope I'm black)
Am I having a reading fail?.
This is disappointing.
What happened to citations? I actually applaud @ajl for linking that study. Did anyone read it? Where are your links in opposition? If we can't answer one question about a State's official polices without being accused of hurting Rnivka who remembers being called Becky one time Imma have a problem.
Oh jeez. The Becky thing. Yall brought that up. The white liberal hipocrasy. Yall brought that up too. (Nope I'm black)
Am I having a reading fail?.
This is disappointing.
What happened to citations? I actually applaud @ajl for linking that study. Did anyone read it? Where are your links in opposition? If we can't answer one question about a State's official polices without being accused of hurting Rnivka who remembers being called Becky one time Imma have a problem.
Did anyone read [the study]? Yes. I read it. I believe Rvan read it. Maybe others attempted to read it. I don't know. It was 74 pages long.
Where are your links in opposition? If I'm understanding this question correctly, the burden is upon us, the Jews, to present equally both sides of this issue; the Israeli and Palestinian POV? Is that right? Because if it is, start here, and then follow every single hyper link in each sub-section. Read all of it. I've read about 70% of it since the last time this subject blew up around here. I'm currently reading through section 4.9 Water Resources. Then let's come back here and talk about it.
but. didn't fryjack2 say her Palestinian family members have said they are living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid? so isn't it unfair to tell them their experience isn't what it is, simply because it's hard to hear?
(if i am misinterpreting what you said, fryjack2 , I apologize and please ignore my post.)
"Living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid" and declaring a country an "apartheid state" are two different things. One is a personal description of conditions one is living under and the other is an internationally recognized set of policies that constitute a regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group.
*Jews are not a race. **Neither are Palestinians. (* and ** Please, please, please do not get hung up on this. This is not germane to the issue at hand and the current problems in the conflicted areas.) This is an important distinction that is recognized by both Israel and the PA.
Israel has and does engage in actions that negatively impact Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza (this is simply a description of "what" and not "why" or "should they" or "does Israel have a right to".) Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens (though Jewish settlers in those areas are Israeli citizens. They are also settled illegally and that is a big issue in this ongoing conflict.) Israel has established a military occupation of those areas (this is a statement of fact. Not an endorsement of the occupation.) The West Bank and Gaza are governed by Fatah and Hamas (political groups recognized by the Palestinian National Authority.)
No on has denied fryjack2's family's experience. No one has said that what they are experiencing isn't awful, inhuman, and anathema to international human rights standards. For literally the 10th time in this thread, along with others, I am trying to explain that "apartheid state" and "apartheid" applied to Israel is inaccurate and not appropriate going forward in this discussion.
ETA: There are Palestinians who live in Israel and are citizens of Israel. They also have a unique position and stake in this conflict. I am still reading up on that issue, so I can't speak to it just yet.
barcelonagirl serious question -have you blocked AJL, MrsAxilla, and myself? All 3 of us have clearly explained the issues with your posts that make them anti-Semitic.
No one is providing anecdotes. I used Wikipedia for the definition of apartheid and the first point is its exclusion of the minority group from government participation. I don't have to read on beyond that because Israel has 13 Arab non-Jews serving in the Knesset (out of 120 seats). That is enough to be highly significant in a parliamentary system where the 2 largest parties have 30 and 19 seats, respectively. It's not even a "token" participation. Israel is not an apartheid state, so quit it. It's shutting down the conversation.
By using a factually incorrect term that is inflammatory in the way that apartheid is, since we apparently don't care about the academic definition, you are being anti Semitic. Own it. Several of us said to focus on policy and we will be there to have a conversation.
"I don't have to read beyond that and the language makes you uncomfortable". What language? Quote and cite.
Listen I'm not here for fake allies. Come up with a bettwr source than the UN article Ajl was brave enough to post and then come talk to me.
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 25, 2017 20:05:46 GMT -5
The question is whether Israel is an apartheid state. UN officials say yes. Jewish people are affronted.
Ok. You're not an apartheid state but you still admitted to forced sterilization of Ethiopian jews. So I'm standing up for my fellow blacks and browns the same way I would here.
And I wonder if everyone all up in arms rides as hard for black folk getting killed in this country on the daily.
Who holds the power? Israel. Who gets to define what's "nice"? The oppressed.
but. didn't fryjack2 say her Palestinian family members have said they are living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid? so isn't it unfair to tell them their experience isn't what it is, simply because it's hard to hear?
(if i am misinterpreting what you said, fryjack2 , I apologize and please ignore my post.)
"Living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid" and declaring a country an "apartheid state" are two different things. One is a personal description of conditions one is living under and the other is an internationally recognized set of policies that constitute a regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group.
*Jews are not a race. **Neither are Palestinians. (* and ** Please, please, please do not get hung up on this. This is not germane to the issue at hand and the current problems in the conflicted areas.) This is an important distinction that is recognized by both Israel and the PA.
Israel has and does engage in actions that negatively impact Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza (this is simply a description of "what" and not "why" or "should they" or "does Israel have a right to".) Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens (though Jewish settlers in those areas are Israeli citizens. They are also settled illegally and that is a big issue in this ongoing conflict.) Israel has established a military occupation of those areas (this is a statement of fact. Not an endorsement of the occupation.) The West Bank and Gaza are governed by Fatah and Hamas (political groups recognized by the Palestinian National Authority.)
No on has denied fryjack2's family's experience. No one has said that what they are experiencing isn't awful, inhuman, and anathema to international human rights standards. For literally the 10th time in this thread, along with others, I am trying to explain that "apartheid state" and "apartheid" applied to Israel is inaccurate and not appropriate going forward in this discussion.
ETA: There are Palestinians who live in Israel and are citizens of Israel. They also have a unique position and stake in this conflict. I am still reading up on that issue, so I can't speak to it just yet.
And the reason this is so critical is not because we're uncomfortable with the truth. It's not just semantics, like people seem to assume. Apartheid is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY! It has a definition and severe consequences. It's not a label to throw around lightly because it makes YOU feel better.
And seriously what the fuck is this shit that we have to cite and quote language we find offensive and convince you that it's offensive? I surely remember a different response when someone used the phrase "call a spade a spade" on ML.
The question is whether Israel is an apartheid state. UN officials say yes. Jewish people are affronted.
Ok. You're not an apartheid state but you still admitted to forced sterilization of Ethiopian jews. So I'm standing up for my fellow blacks and browns the same way I would here.
And I wonder if everyone all up in arms rides as hard for black folk getting killed in this country on the daily.
Who holds the power? Israel. Who gets to define what's "nice"? The oppressed.
1. No U.N. official has declared Israel an apartheid state. I'm fact the U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres denounced the report I linked.
2. We are not Israel, so no, the Jews in this thread are clearly not an apartheid state nor apologists of Apartheid. Israel is also not an apartheid state (for the 11th or 12th time now.)
3. I most certainly am up in arms about black people being killed in this country! And you can fuck off for assuming otherwise.
I AND THE OTHER JEWISH POSTERS IN THIS THREAD ACTIVELY DENOUNCE THE TREATMENT OF OPPRESSED PEOPLE, INCLUDING PALESTINIANS. However, Israel is not an apartheid state. It may be an oppressive government engaging in acts that are harmful to the well being of Palestinians in the militarily occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank. It that does not make it an apartheid state for reasons that have been laid out clearly and succinctly.
You are free to choose to believe what ever you wish to but that does not make your belief factually sound.
If you read my response above, the idea that the power is slanted toward Israel is not as clear cut as it seems. Only in recent years would anyone say Israel had power in the Middle East.
Also, Israelis are as brown as the Palestinians. So let's not with that. There are brown Jews and white Muslims. Neither religion is synonymous with a particular race.
Finally, there was a thread not long ago about whether Jews are POC and many of the WOC said it was our call, which was lovely. But clearly you didn't believe a word of that. All you see when you look at us are white Europeans and there's no room for nuance. Israelis = white and Palestinians = brown and so you chose your side. If that's the case, then nothing we say will be able to sway you because you insist on looking at the Israeli conflict through the lens of black oppression in the United States. That's not fair to us.
The question is whether Israel is an apartheid state. UN officials say yes. Jewish people are affronted.
Ok. You're not an apartheid state but you still admitted to forced sterilization of Ethiopian jews. So I'm standing up for my fellow blacks and browns the same way I would here.
And I wonder if everyone all up in arms rides as hard for black folk getting killed in this country on the daily.
Who holds the power? Israel. Who gets to define what's "nice"? The oppressed.
Honestly, fuck you.
The UN condemned the biased report that was drafted by a group of countries with skin in the game. It pulled it. But way to continue to ignore that fact because it doesn't fit your narrative.
There was no forced sterilization of Ethiopian Jews. A few hundred women were given Depo shots without their consent. That was wrong, it was brought to light, it was stopped, and the people who did it were punished. That all happened within the Israeli government. But again, continue to ignore the facts because it doesn't fit your narrative.
I am not a bigot because I don't agree with the destruction of Israel, which is what that UN report called for. I'm not lying, I fucking quoted it. My uncle was murdered in the Holocaust because he had nowhere else to go. Israel needs to exist to protect us.
Look at this shit you've done in this thread alone. You've discounted every single Jewish voice because you think we are less than you. You told me to "own what you are". What the fuck am I?
There are 16 million Jews in the world, with 6.5 million in Israel. There are 366 million Arabs living in Arab speaking countries. Who do you think has the fucking power? Google who has the most hate crimes perpetuated against them in Western countries. In America, its Jews, in Canada, Jews. Europe, Jews.
Oh, and my family isn't fucking white. They are Mizrahi and Ashkenazi. If you passed them in the street you would call them brown, because they fucking are.
I supported BLM until they actively began discriminating against me and mine. I still cape for black rights and empowerment, but I don't support an organization that calls for my annihilation. Y'all don't stand for us when we are 3x as likely to have a hate crime perpetuated against us. link Yet, check out the ADL, Hadassah, or any mainstream Jewish publication and you will see SCORES of Jews who stand up for black americans. We do it as a matter of policy, a matter of religion, and matter of moral fiber.
I have repeatedly argued that Israel is committing wrongs against that Palestinians in this fucking thread, but you've ignored all of that and continue to be an insulting asshole spouting propaganda and anti-Semitism. If this shit was happening to any other ethnic group this wouldn't be tolerated here.
SaveSave
I have been told by multiple friends to no longer engage because I was so downtrodden by the end of the day yesterday that I wanted to hide in my house and take down my mezuzahs. But I'm back to say I fucking love you and everything you just said.
For three days I think I've done an excellent job keeping my cool. I've calmly and with resources, helped people here listen and learn. I've patiently answered the same question, literally a dozen time, but with this last post from you, barcelonagirl , I think I've reached my limit.
Because you know what, I'm a person of color. I'm Mexican-American. I'm a Jew. I'm the descendant of exiled Jews from Spain by way of the middle East. My ancestors are Sephardic and Yemeni (as in Yemen). I'm also descended from the Purepecha indgenious people of Michoacan, Mexico, as in my maternal grandfather was Purepecha. I might know a thing or two about oppression.
Not all Jews - in fact, many Jews don't live the white experience you assume we do. So fuck you in assuming you know our stories thus implying we don't give a shit or could possibly understand what other people of color are going through. Fuck you for thinking that we don't give a shit about what Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Over all, fuck you.
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 25, 2017 20:51:53 GMT -5
Great discussion. Loved how we analyzed the cv's of the authors of the U.N. study, loved how we credited the response of the sole Palestinian brave enough to post on this thread.
I am black. Not fucking tan. I can't disguise my face. Please don't you ever try and compare yourself to my experience in my fucking country. Back off Becky.
Great discussion. Loved how we analyzed the cv's of the authors of the U.N. study, loved how we credited the response of the sole Palestinian brave enough to post on this thread.
I am black. Not fucking tan. I can't disguise my face. Please don't you ever try and compare yourself to my experience in my fucking country. Back off Becky.
Great discussion. Loved how we analyzed the cv's of the authors of the U.N. study, loved how we credited the response of the sole Palestinian brave enough to post on this thread.
I am black. Not fucking tan. I can't disguise my face. Please don't you ever try and compare yourself to my experience in my fucking country. Back off Becky.
Ditto.
Which country is yours? The one in which you hold power or the one in which you don't?
Great discussion. Loved how we analyzed the cv's of the authors of the U.N. study, loved how we credited the response of the sole Palestinian brave enough to post on this thread.
I am black. Not fucking tan. I can't disguise my face. Please don't you ever try and compare yourself to my experience in my fucking country. Back off Becky.
Not a single fucking one of us has done that. We've all acknowledged that the experience of oppression Jews face is dramatically different than the one that black people in this country face. But fine. You win the oppression prize. Last time we won, they gave us yellow stars and train tickets. Happy to have those off our hands.
Great discussion. Loved how we analyzed the cv's of the authors of the U.N. study, loved how we credited the response of the sole Palestinian brave enough to post on this thread.
I am black. Not fucking tan. I can't disguise my face. Please don't you ever try and compare yourself to my experience in my fucking country. Back off Becky.
Millions of Jews died because no country would let them immigrate. - The Voyage of the St. Lois is a great case study on what happened to Jews because they couldn't get Visa's because they Were Jewish
Can you truly not understand why Isreal's existence and it being a strong country is a huge issue for Jewish people?
The right of return gives them a safe haven to ensure the Holocaust never happens again.
No one on here thinks the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians are a good thing. But 50 yrs ago Israels Muslim neighbors tried to remove it from existance. Peace with Egypt came in the late 70s
Israel is surrounded by countries that don't want to let it exist so yes being careful in how it's policies are labeled is important to the Jewish posters on here because Israel is necessary for their safety as proved through out history.
(I listed the numerous historical events earlier in the thread so won't cite them again unless you need me to)