Post by rupertpenny on Jun 25, 2017 21:09:04 GMT -5
I don't understand what is happening here. No one is saying that Palestinians are not oppressed. Saying apartheid isn't an appropriate term =/= denying any oppression.
I have been typing and retyping because I don't know what to say in this thread. I imagine that it is very difficult to be Jewish while the Israeli government commits atrocities that are in defiance of the tenants of Judaism. I don't presume to understand how that feels. I do know that I haven't met a single Jewish person who supports what is happening to the Palestinians right now, online or in real life. You can support and recognize how necessary the existence of Israel is while supporting Palestine and its people and condemning the treatment that they are receiving. In fact, I don't recall seeing otherwise in this thread.
I saw a lot of experiences being shared, and I appreciate being let into those experiences, Palestinian and Jewish alike. I feel like what I am saying right now isn't enough and sounds stupid, but I really don't know what else to say. The situation between Palestine and Israel right now breaks my heart.
Which country is yours? The one in which you hold power or the one in which you don't?
Look, I'm neither Jewish nor black, so maybe i'm just missing something - but what do you mean by this? In which country are you implying MrsAJL holds power? The US? Israel? Are you talking about MrsAJL specifically or are you making a larger point about jewish people?
I am asking this with all sincerity, because i'm honestly not getting what you're getting at here, but I'll admit that I can't come up with an interpretation of this statement that doesn't make me think you sound pretty antisemitic here. But maybe i'm just not following.
We got 300 mill and counting? Do you really want to play this game?
Oh and guess what I pay taxes for the state to kill me.
You are missing the point. Israel was created in 1948 because for 500 yrs Jews had been kicked out of countries or prevented from immigrating for being Jewish and faced death because of it. Ending with the Holocaust where millions died because they were denied visas solely on the basis of their religion. Israel was formed because the International community accepted its need to exist as a safe guard.
One can support that and still support Social Justice issues in the US.
* also the 6 million is strictly the Holocaust not the Progroms, expulsions, Spanish Inqusition Deaths, the random acts of violence against Jewish communities, KKK deaths, men like Leo Frank who was lynched.
but. didn't fryjack2 say her Palestinian family members have said they are living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid? so isn't it unfair to tell them their experience isn't what it is, simply because it's hard to hear?
(if i am misinterpreting what you said, fryjack2 , I apologize and please ignore my post.)
I honestly don't know if I can keep responding in this thread.
I wrote a bunch of what I know as a Palestinian and then a few posts later read a post thanking all the Jewish posters for continuing to educate all the non jewish posters who are listening and learning and for all the Jewish allies on CEP.
Then I read a post telling rjamz to fuck off when she was describing her experience as a Jew.
Now I just read that the only hope for Palestinian are acts of terrorism which is such a fucked up depressing opinion to read about your country and its people. We can all see how well #45's administration is doing by way of peace talks. No matter how much Jews here and in Israel want to find an end to this conflict, it won't be anytime soon.
AJL apologized, but I'm still wtfing her post. It just shows how much emotion is embedded in this topic. I avoided this thread all day because its depressing and disgusting with some attempts at a real conversation. I'm not sure I have it in me to try to navigate the fuckery to have one.
ETA: Well, I see I missed a lot while typing that response. Sadly, this is now another thread about this topic that doesn't end well.
I don't understand what is happening here. No one is saying that Palestinians are not oppressed. Saying apartheid isn't an appropriate term =/= denying any oppression.
I don't either. I reread a couple times, but I'm still confused.
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 25, 2017 21:23:25 GMT -5
A week ago the bookstore put a quote in the window that included the word "lynching" my allies were quick to denounce the shop.
I googled the quote. I demand education among my advocates. I challenege every person on this thread to go back and challenge what fryjack2 wrote before you were able to get distracted by a black woman 3000 miles away.
Post by mrsdewinter on Jun 25, 2017 21:24:06 GMT -5
I don't even understand what is going on here but fuck this whole thread. Fuck the implication that Jews don't care about the injustices happening in the US, or in Israel/Palestine. Fuck the implication that Jews' real allegiance lies with Israel, and that we are just power hungry white oppressors. Between this and the Chicago pride march kicking out people for being openly Jewish, just fuck everything.
but. didn't fryjack2 say her Palestinian family members have said they are living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid? so isn't it unfair to tell them their experience isn't what it is, simply because it's hard to hear?
(if i am misinterpreting what you said, fryjack2 , I apologize and please ignore my post.)
I honestly don't know if I can keep responding in this thread.
I wrote a bunch of what I know as a Palestinian and then a few posts later read a post thanking all the Jewish posters for continuing to educate all the non jewish posters who are listening and learning and for all the Jewish allies on CEP.
Then I read a post telling rjamz to fuck off when she was describing her experience as a Jew.
Now I just read that the only hope for Palestinian are acts of terrorism which is such a fucked up depressing opinion to read about your country and its people. We can all see how well #45's administration is doing by way of peace talks. No matter how much Jews here and in Israel want to find an end to this conflict, it won't be anytime soon.
AJL apologized, but I'm still wtfing her post. It just shows how much emotion is embedded in this topic. I avoided this thread all day because its depressing and disgusting with some attempts at a real conversation. I'm not sure I have it in me to try to navigate the fuckery to have one.
I really appreciated hearing what you had to say. I cried reading about the experiences that your family has had. I am so very sorry for what you/they are going through. I will never presume to know how it feels to be in your position either, and it seems unfathomable to even try.
A week ago the bookstore put a quote in the window that included the word "lynching" my allies were quick to denounce the shop.
I googled the quote. I demand education among my advocates. I challenege every person on this thread to go back and challenge what fryjack2 wrote before you were able to get distracted by a black woman 3000 miles away.
Privilege is a mother fucker
You still haven't addressed my question do you get why Isreal's existence is important to the Jewish people? And why labeling Isrealas an apartheid state (which the UN has not done) endangers its existence?
No one is saying Israeli policies are good they are saying labeling them with a label that has huge consequences to its existence is not OK.
but. didn't fryjack2 say her Palestinian family members have said they are living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid? so isn't it unfair to tell them their experience isn't what it is, simply because it's hard to hear?
(if i am misinterpreting what you said, fryjack2 , I apologize and please ignore my post.)
I honestly don't know if I can keep responding in this thread.
I wrote a bunch of what I know as a Palestinian and then a few posts later read a post thanking all the Jewish posters for continuing to educate all the non jewish posters who are listening and learning and for all the Jewish allies on CEP.
Then I read a post telling rjamz to fuck off when she was describing her experience as a Jew.
Now I just read that the only hope for Palestinian are acts of terrorism which is such a fucked up depressing opinion to read about your country and its people. We can all see how well #45's administration is doing by way of peace talks. No matter how much Jews here and in Israel want to find an end to this conflict, it won't be anytime soon.
AJL apologized, but I'm still wtfing her post. It just shows how much emotion is embedded in this topic. I avoided this thread all day because its depressing and disgusting with some attempts at a real conversation. I'm not sure I have it in me to try to navigate the fuckery to have one.
[
I just wanted to say that I truly appreciate your posts and perspective here. I completely understand not having the emotional energy to keep engaging in this thread. I hope in the future, posts on this topic can be more productive and less full of fuckery.
Without Jews in America and Israel speaking up, the only hope for people like fryjack2 's family is resorting to terrorism via supporting Hamas.
[
i wasn't going to wade into this at all, because the most important thing I learned in my time working in Israel and Palestine was to keep my mouth shut (seriously, it's known as a career ending post in my world for a reason).
But I hope you don't mean that statement literally.fryjack2 can speak for herself, but my experience has been that Palestinian people, much like Israelis are pretty diverse and find hope in a lot of things, many of which are positive initiatives generated in their own communities. A statement that without others speaking for them they'll have no hope but to resort to Hamas is kind of extreme, though no doubt well intentioned. Many many Palestinians will never support Hamas for a dizzying array of reasons--regardless of what anyone else says or does.
*back to mouth shut*
Thank you.
I didn't even know how to respond to that comment and you wrote the perfect response.
Feel free to keep talking and not shut your mouth. I'd love to hear more about your time working in Israel and Palestine.
A week ago the bookstore put a quote in the window that included the word "lynching" my allies were quick to denounce the shop.
I googled the quote. I demand education among my advocates. I challenege every person on this thread to go back and challenge what fryjack2 wrote before you were able to get distracted by a black woman 3000 miles away.
Privilege is a mother fucker
You still haven't addressed my question do you get why Isreal's existence is important to the Jewish people? And why labeling Isrealas an apartheid state (which the UN has not done) endangers its existence?
No one is saying Israeli policies are good they are saying labeling them with a label that has huge consequences to its existence is not OK.
I get why Israel is a global necessity. I disagree that apartheid is necessary for that goal. Shall we present all the unmaimed handmaid's?
but. didn't fryjack2 say her Palestinian family members have said they are living in conditions similar to those of an apartheid? so isn't it unfair to tell them their experience isn't what it is, simply because it's hard to hear?
(if i am misinterpreting what you said, fryjack2 , I apologize and please ignore my post.)
I honestly don't know if I can keep responding in this thread.
I wrote a bunch of what I know as a Palestinian and then a few posts later read a post thanking all the Jewish posters for continuing to educate all the non jewish posters who are listening and learning and for all the Jewish allies on CEP.
Then I read a post telling rjamz to fuck off when she was describing her experience as a Jew.
Now I just read that the only hope for Palestinian are acts of terrorism which is such a fucked up depressing opinion to read about your country and its people. We can all see how well #45's administration is doing by way of peace talks. No matter how much Jews here and in Israel want to find an end to this conflict, it won't be anytime soon.
AJL apologized, but I'm still wtfing her post. It just shows how much emotion is embedded in this topic. I avoided this thread all day because its depressing and disgusting with some attempts at a real conversation. I'm not sure I have it in me to try to navigate the fuckery to have one.
ETA: Well, I see I missed a lot while typing that response. Sadly, this is now another thread about this topic that doesn't end well.
RECORD SCREECH
I missed the part about the terrorism being the only resort and HOLY SHIT NO. By saying that Palestinians need us, American and Israeli Jews to bring them peace otherwise they are forced to resort to terrorism is so...patriarchal and dehumanizing and WRONG. Yes, Hamas took power in Gaza, but not because they had a message of terror. They won an election in Gaza with a message of improving life for the downtrodden people of Gaza. They promised hospitals and schools. I understand that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but that isn't how they presented themselves when they ran as a political party. And the Palestinians in the West Bank would be just fucking fine if the Israelis stopped settling on their land and building walls through their property. To say they NEED us is to diminish them as a nation and as human beings. As partners for peace, we have to work together, yes. But as EQUALS.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Jun 25, 2017 21:34:14 GMT -5
I'm so confused by some of the posts in this thread. I'm putting aside the Israeli and Palestinian discussion because honestly I think it's incredibly complicated and tragic on a variety of levels.
But, there are a bunch of people forgetting that privilege comes in a lot of forms.
If you are white, you are privileged.
If you are male, you are privileged.
If you are Christian, you are privileged.
If you are heterosexual, you are privileged.
If you identify as the sex you were born as, you are privileged.
If you are able-bodied, you are privileged.
If someone who is black, female, Jewish, Muslim, gay, transgender, or disabled tells me that they have experienced discrimination and faced hatred, I am not going to argue with them, especially in a place where we purport to support one another.
You still haven't addressed my question do you get why Isreal's existence is important to the Jewish people? And why labeling Isrealas an apartheid state (which the UN has not done) endangers its existence?
No one is saying Israeli policies are good they are saying labeling them with a label that has huge consequences to its existence is not OK.
I get why Israel is a global necessity. I disagree that apartheid is necessary for that goal. Shall we present all the unmaimed handmaid's?
4th glass in fyi
No one agrees with the policies for the millionth time. BUT labeling it as apartheid opens up Israel to being targeted for decimation and being taken over by hostile neighbors is ending its existence. That's why it's a big freaking deal to do so and why the UN does not do so. The policies suck no one disagrees with that. But it's going to be a hot button issue to use a label that could endanger Israel's right to exist.
I get why Israel is a global necessity. I disagree that apartheid is necessary for that goal. Shall we present all the unmaimed handmaid's?
4th glass in fyi
No one agrees with the policies for the millionth time. BUT labeling it as apartheid opens up Israel to being targeted for decimation and being taken over by hostile neighbors is ending its existence. That's why it's a big freaking deal to do so and why the UN does not do so. The policies suck no one disagrees with that. But it's going to be a hot button issue to use a label that could endanger Israel's right to exist.
I live in a country that refuses to acknowledge mass genocide and calls it Thanksgiving.
Post by whereswaldo2010 on Jun 25, 2017 21:39:15 GMT -5
Wow. I'm not sure why I'm responding since it's clear that most of you ladies want a platform to talk about your hurt feelings and tears but don't want to listen and learn about people who are facing actual oppression at the hands of the Israeli government. When I hear my Palestinian friends talk about the checkpoints and economic strangulation and restrictions on basic needs like electricity and home demolitions and restrictions from accessing their own land they face because they are Palestinian, and when they describe it as apartheid-like policies, I say it is bullshit that they are experiencing that and I hold the Israeli government responsible for its discriminatory and inhumane policies. I don't say ok thanks for sharing but don't you dare call it apartheid, you anti-Semite. I'm going to let the victims describe their own situations, since they are going through it and also hey, the word they chose does fit the commonly accepted usage of the word apartheid even if it is not all of the exact same structure as the apartheid of South Africa. A word can have an accepted meaning beyond that historical moment, as clearly apartheid does to the victims using it.
You can continue to try to shift the conversation to how hurt your feelings are that a governments actions are being described using a certain word, or you can take issue with the actual actions of said government. I choose to do the latter. But keep on trying to convince people that Palestinians are the ones with the power the Israel is the oppressed. Maybe some listeners and learners will buy it. I guess I take comfort in the fact that even if you manage to create a safe space for yourselves on this board (read: echo chamber where you shut down discussion by labeling it anti-Semitic), the broader conversation outside this board is changing and is more willing to hold Israel responsible for the choices it makes.
Look. I'm a white Christian majority in the US. I will not use Becky as a pejorative anymore. That is 1) not something I have ownership of and 2) when someone tells me something is offensive I need to honor that.
Second, this thread is pretty textbook on how antisemitism presents itself. I've read a lot of things that say that when Jews finally get power over something they can control they are seen as power hungry, controlling, and sitting in the seat of privilege. We forget that it's not just the Holocaust. This discrimination goes back to the time before Christ. I'm having a hard time in seeing that we need to dismiss that because they've had a good run the last 60 or so years.
i wasn't going to wade into this at all, because the most important thing I learned in my time working in Israel and Palestine was to keep my mouth shut (seriously, it's known as a career ending post in my world for a reason).
But I hope you don't mean that statement literally. fryjack2 can speak for herself, but my experience has been that Palestinian people, much like Israelis are pretty diverse and find hope in a lot of things, many of which are positive initiatives generated in their own communities. A statement that without others speaking for them they'll have no hope but to resort to Hamas is kind of extreme, though no doubt well intentioned. Many many Palestinians will never support Hamas for a dizzying array of reasons--regardless of what anyone else says or does.
*back to mouth shut*
I'm admittedly feeling a little bit extreme and didn't word that as well as I'd like. It's more that we need each other's cooperation and a civil conversation to make anything change. But terror does increase when peace talks stall. I've heard from Palestinian friends that their family turned to Hamas because they saw them as getting shit done when peace talks weren't doing anything.
So, because a friend of your's has a family member who became a stupid fucking moron and turned to Hamas, its the only hope for all Palestinians?
I read today that there was a NUMBER FUCKING ONE best seller on Amazon called, The History of the Palestinian People, that is 132 FUCKING BLANK PAGES because Palestinians aren't a real people so can't have a legitimate history. Written by a Jewish man. But that one repulsive books didn't lead me to type that Jewish men don't believe Palestinians exist.
It just took me way too long to write that because I'm upset and never should have come in here again. I'm sure there are many more posts and we have moved on, but whatever.
Which country is yours? The one in which you hold power or the one in which you don't?
I will not play Who is More Oppressed with you.
i have not responded in this thread because I am admittedly not well-versed on Israeli/Palestinian issues, but I completely agree with this. The Who is More Oppressed game is gross and unproductive. Also, I thought this thread was about Israeli/Palestinian issues...how did it get to this?!
I get why Israel is a global necessity. I disagree that apartheid is necessary for that goal. Shall we present all the unmaimed handmaid's?
4th glass in fyi
No one agrees with the policies for the millionth time. BUT labeling it as apartheid opens up Israel to being targeted for decimation and being taken over by hostile neighbors is ending its existence. That's why it's a big freaking deal to do so and why the UN does not do so. The policies suck no one disagrees with that. But it's going to be a hot button issue to use a label that could endanger Israel's right to exist.
Being labeled as apartheid opens it up to being targeted for decimation? Wow. Was South Africa decimated because it was labeled apartheid? Or was it just forced to do some soul searching and change its policies to change it's discriminatory and oppressive policies?
Beckys are basic white girls, full stop and since Jewish is broadly defined some of them can be Jewish. But that doesn't make it a Jewish characterization.
Also, who is the the damned fool who assumes a girl named Becky is a Becky?
Look, I'm not automatically assuming that because my parents call me Becky, I'm a Becky. But it's jarring to read about "Beckiness" when that's your name. It just is. What if I called all antisemites "imnotstayings?" Wouldn't you get a little thrown off every time I said it even though you knew I wasn't referring to you specifically. I get that it was INTENDED to be Jewish (probably - I'm not here to call Sir Mix A lot an anti-Semite) but Rebecca is a very common Jewish name. It just is. Fact.
Keep on keeping on with it if you want, we're just telling you how it is perceived by some of us.
My name is Becky, too. Every time I see the term used I cringe a little because...well, it's my name. And I can't stand the type of person the term describes.
I just finished reading and am trying to form a coherent thought that would add to the conversation. I admit to being relatively ignorant about Israel/Palestine, beyond a surface knowledge, and I appreciate all of you who have shared your personal experiences.
That being said, barcelonagirl , what's your end game here? You seem to be trying hard to discount the experiences that have been shared here. Why?
the word they chose does fit the commonly accepted usage of the word apartheid even if it is not all of the exact same structure as the apartheid of South Africa. A word can have an accepted meaning beyond that historical moment, as clearly apartheid does to the victims using it.
Except it has a legal definition and the Israel/Palestine situation does not meet it. And the legal and diplomatic impact of using it is the issue because it would be the end of Israel because it would give its hostile neighbors the justification to conquer them. Something that most have wanted to do since 1948. A very different scenario from South Africa where it's neighbors had no desire to remove it or to give its land to others just supported an end to its apartheid policies.
So yes using it is a big fucking deal to Jewish people who can point to 1939 and say if only Israel existed then my Grandmother would be alive.
No one agrees with Israeli handling of Palestine.
Israel needs to accept a two state solution and focus on negotiating a equitable division so that both Palestine and Israel can exist peacefully.
But pushing for its end is not the way to handle this and that's where using the term begins to cross into Anti-Semitism.
(For the record I am a southern American Methodist my only dog in this fight is knowing the history and getting why this matters in a diplomatic sense)
No one agrees with the policies for the millionth time. BUT labeling it as apartheid opens up Israel to being targeted for decimation and being taken over by hostile neighbors is ending its existence. That's why it's a big freaking deal to do so and why the UN does not do so. The policies suck no one disagrees with that. But it's going to be a hot button issue to use a label that could endanger Israel's right to exist.
Being labeled as apartheid opens it up to being targeted for decimation? Wow. Was South Africa decimated because it was labeled apartheid? Or was it just forced to do some soul searching and change its policies to change it's discriminatory and oppressive policies?
considering Israel's turbulent history, and the tendency for people to believe the worst of Jewish people over the last thousands of years, the global perception is a little different