Post by lovelovelove on Jun 25, 2017 21:55:25 GMT -5
I don't have anything valuable to add at the moment but wanted to say that I very much appreciate everyone in here who has shared personal stories, sources, and history.
I'm sorry. I do not mean it's the only option or one that most people choose.
I have never heard of that book, but like others, I know the more extreme voices in the Jewish community are dangerous and threatening. A viable, independent, Palestinian state is the only way I can see Israel's long-term survival.
Two Jewish posters have apologized for their comments made in here about Palestine or the conflict.
A third has posted 2 totally fucked up comments about Palestinians.
All written knowing a Palestinian is in here reading and responding.
All three have written that they are against the oppression of Palestinians, want to find a peaceful resolution, and have meaningful discussions to that end.
And we wonder why its so hard to have these threads? And why peace in the Middle East is so hard to achieve? And why some Palestinians may not fully trust Jews/Israelis?
Maybe we all should be looking in the fucking mirror.
I just finished reading and am trying to form a coherent thought that would add to the conversation. I admit to being relatively ignorant about Israel/Palestine, beyond a surface knowledge, and I appreciate all of you who have shared your personal experiences.
That being said, barcelonagirl , what's your end game here? You seem to be trying hard to discount the experiences that have been shared here. Why?
edited because of autocorrect
I'm not barcelonagirl but there are victims of israeli oppression that use the word apartheid to describe their situation. Saying that they are not allowed to use that word discounts their real lived experiences, doesn't it?
Post by berrysweet on Jun 25, 2017 21:58:08 GMT -5
One of the major takeaways I've had from "listening and learning" on this board is that when it comes to microaggressions, *impact* is more important than *intent*.
In this particular thread, I'm seeing Jewish posters and a Palestinian poster speak to the impact of specific phrases in terms of oppression or a perceived intent to oppress in their lives both individually and collectively as part of the groups that they identify with. I'm also seeing their feedback about the *impact* being dismissed because it lacked *intent*, or just because others seem to disagree with the impact that they feel.
I just finished reading and am trying to form a coherent thought that would add to the conversation. I admit to being relatively ignorant about Israel/Palestine, beyond a surface knowledge, and I appreciate all of you who have shared your personal experiences.
That being said, barcelonagirl , what's your end game here? You seem to be trying hard to discount the experiences that have been shared here. Why?
edited because of autocorrect
I thought I was supporting fryjack2 who seems to have been silenced
Wow. I'm not sure why I'm responding since it's clear that most of you ladies want a platform to talk about your hurt feelings and tears but don't want to listen and learn about people who are facing actual oppression at the hands of the Israeli government. When I hear my Palestinian friends talk about the checkpoints and economic strangulation and restrictions on basic needs like electricity and home demolitions and restrictions from accessing their own land they face because they are Palestinian, and when they describe it as apartheid-like policies, I say it is bullshit that they are experiencing that and I hold the Israeli government responsible for its discriminatory and inhumane policies. I don't say ok thanks for sharing but don't you dare call it apartheid, you anti-Semite. I'm going to let the victims describe their own situations, since they are going through it and also hey, the word they chose does fit the commonly accepted usage of the word apartheid even if it is not all of the exact same structure as the apartheid of South Africa. A word can have an accepted meaning beyond that historical moment, as clearly apartheid does to the victims using it.
You can continue to try to shift the conversation to how hurt your feelings are that a governments actions are being described using a certain word, or you can take issue with the actual actions of said government. I choose to do the latter. But keep on trying to convince people that Palestinians are the ones with the power the Israel is the oppressed. Maybe some listeners and learners will buy it. I guess I take comfort in the fact that even if you manage to create a safe space for yourselves on this board (read: echo chamber where you shut down discussion by labeling it anti-Semitic), the broader conversation outside this board is changing and is more willing to hold Israel responsible for the choices it makes.
You do realize the only people in this thread insisting on using the word apartheid is you and barcelonagirl, right? And neither of you are Jewish or Palestinian, so I can think of no other reason for this besides bigotry.
You still haven't addressed my question do you get why Isreal's existence is important to the Jewish people? And why labeling Isrealas an apartheid state (which the UN has not done) endangers its existence?
No one is saying Israeli policies are good they are saying labeling them with a label that has huge consequences to its existence is not OK.
I get why Israel is a global necessity. I disagree that apartheid is necessary for that goal. Shall we present all the unmaimed handmaid's?
4th glass in fyi
Oh. Well. That seems like a good plan. Tipsy posting on the topic of antisemitism and Israeli/Palestinian relations. Sure. Do that. It's not a serious and personal topic to many here or anything.
I just finished reading and am trying to form a coherent thought that would add to the conversation. I admit to being relatively ignorant about Israel/Palestine, beyond a surface knowledge, and I appreciate all of you who have shared your personal experiences.
That being said, barcelonagirl , what's your end game here? You seem to be trying hard to discount the experiences that have been shared here. Why?
edited because of autocorrect
I thought I was supporting fryjack2 who seems to have been silenced
I guess in my skimming I missed where she was silenced.
I think there's a difference between supporting one person's viewpoints and suppressing another's.
Post by hopecounts on Jun 25, 2017 22:10:46 GMT -5
A lot of this comes back to Jews are privileged until they aren't. In the Middle Ages French Jews were prosperous until it it saved the King money to kick them all out so he didn't have to pay his debts. Spanish Jews were good until Isabella and Fendinand decided to get rid of them.
Jews in 1920s Germany were doing pretty well and were pretty assimilated until the Nuremberg laws.
1930s French Jews were doing well until the French police rounded them up and sent them to the camps.
I can understand why as a group they are conscious of their mixed status of being accepted as long as they are viewed as beneficial and then being attacked along with other minority groups when it's convenient.
I don't expect them to forget thousands of years of oppression and mistreatment because for 50ish years they have been doing well.
I've been trying to learn more about that part of the world for many years, and so often things seem hopeless and positions intractable. But I've learned two things I believe are true: Palestinians are suffering unjustly, and a strong Israel, with an eternal right to return, is ever necessary.
Destruction of apartheid regimes not fucking countries. South Africa survived why can't Israel?
Because nobody wanted to end South Africa or take its lands and there is plenty of Desire to end Israel and give its lands to Palestine in certain places. The two scenarios are not the same due to the diplomatic position each held/holds.
Two Jewish posters have apologized for their comments made in here about Palestine or the conflict.
A third has posted 2 totally fucked up comments about Palestinians.
All written knowing a Palestinian is in here reading and responding.
All three have written that they are against the oppression of Palestinians, want to find a peaceful resolution, and have meaningful discussions to that end.
And we wonder why its so hard to have these threads? And why peace in the Middle East is so hard to achieve? And why some Palestinians may not fully trust Jews/Israelis?
Maybe we all should be looking in the fucking mirror.
Honestly, I don't know what you want from us. I want you and your family to live in peace and prosperity in your own country if you choose to.
You keep calling the occupation "apartheid", and I've objected to that because international law calls for the destruction of apartheid governments, and right now, what is going on is horrible but has not met the definition of the word. So Israel does not deserve to be destroyed per international law. I'll be really honest, if you think Israel should be destroyed I do think that is an anti-semitic thought process because global history has shown why there is a need for a Jewish state. I don't think that makes you an anti-semite if you choose to prioritize your people over mine, or if you disagree with me on how we can come together to make a better future.
I apologized earlier for calling you ignorant because you are not and I should have been more clear that I was talking about people who are outside and looking in to the situation. SaveSave
I have not called it apartheid. There is confusion/questioning about why its being called apartheid and why its incorrect. I responded giving examples of what my family currently experiences that are similar to some characteristics that black people experienced in S. Africa. As a reference as to why others may refer to it as such. Other posters gave lit. sources that do the same.
In fact, I stated that I wish people would stop using the term because it is not accurate.
Bolded to ensure that there isn't confusion about how I reference the situation.
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 25, 2017 22:19:14 GMT -5
Listen. This topic has been of interest to me since I was a child. Blame my father. I grew up Pro Palestinian without understanding why. I got an A in Contemporary Politics of the Middle East in 2000 at Rutgers. My first job included a contract provision where I could not work from Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. I have been in a sukkah. So if you want to make me the boogeyman, sure.
I am not to terms with the way religious minorities can hide their differences. I say the names and it hurts too much. So sorry. I'm out of fucks to give to you.
Listen. This topic has been of interest to me since I was a child. Blame my father. I grew up Pro Palestinian without understanding why. I got an A in Contemporary Politics of the Middle East in 2000 at Rutgers. My first job included a contract provision where I could not work from Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. I have been in a sukkah. So if you want to make me the boogeyman, sure.
I am not to terms with the way religious minorities can hide their differences. I say the names and it hurts too much. So sorry. I'm out of fucks to give to you.
OMG YOU'VE BEEN IN A SUKKAH?? Why didn't you say so in the first place???
You couldn't possibly have an anti-Semitic bone in your body!
Destruction of apartheid regimes not fucking countries. South Africa survived why can't Israel?
How would that fucking work, exactly? How would you disable Israel's government and military and then it would survive? How would letting Palestinians come into Israel proper and take back property and change the constitution and laws allow it to survive? Do you even know what the actual stops are in the peace process? Do you know what the right of return even is?
Also, where is your sadness for the 900,000 Jews kicked out of Arab countries during the formation of Israel? Where is your condemnation of any other countries' war time actions? No where. Because Jews are white devils (want to check for my horns beneath my curls?) who don't experience any racism because some of us are or look white.
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You are NOT making any sense. Please calm down. This is an internet argument.
Listen. This topic has been of interest to me since I was a child. Blame my father. I grew up Pro Palestinian without understanding why. I got an A in Contemporary Politics of the Middle East in 2000 at Rutgers. My first job included a contract provision where I could not work from Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. I have been in a sukkah. So if you want to make me the boogeyman, sure.
I am not to terms with the way religious minorities can hide their differences. I say the names and it hurts too much. So sorry. I'm out of fucks to give to you.
Wow. I'm not sure why I'm responding since it's clear that most of you ladies want a platform to talk about your hurt feelings and tears but don't want to listen and learn about people who are facing actual oppression at the hands of the Israeli government. When I hear my Palestinian friends talk about the checkpoints and economic strangulation and restrictions on basic needs like electricity and home demolitions and restrictions from accessing their own land they face because they are Palestinian, and when they describe it as apartheid-like policies, I say it is bullshit that they are experiencing that and I hold the Israeli government responsible for its discriminatory and inhumane policies. I don't say ok thanks for sharing but don't you dare call it apartheid, you anti-Semite. I'm going to let the victims describe their own situations, since they are going through it and also hey, the word they chose does fit the commonly accepted usage of the word apartheid even if it is not all of the exact same structure as the apartheid of South Africa. A word can have an accepted meaning beyond that historical moment, as clearly apartheid does to the victims using it.
You can continue to try to shift the conversation to how hurt your feelings are that a governments actions are being described using a certain word, or you can take issue with the actual actions of said government. I choose to do the latter. But keep on trying to convince people that Palestinians are the ones with the power the Israel is the oppressed. Maybe some listeners and learners will buy it. I guess I take comfort in the fact that even if you manage to create a safe space for yourselves on this board (read: echo chamber where you shut down discussion by labeling it anti-Semitic), the broader conversation outside this board is changing and is more willing to hold Israel responsible for the choices it makes.
You do realize the only people in this thread insisting on using the word apartheid is you and barcelonagirl, right? And neither of you are Jewish or Palestinian, so I can think of no other reason for this besides bigotry.
I'm laughing that you read my post and came back with that. Maybe more people that disagree with you are not posting because of the aforementioned echo chamber here. Fryjack2 has posted about her family's experiences and been met with total condescension. Like y'all literally said to her thank you for sharing it is so important to hear your perspective but let me continue talking only about how we are the victims and people should keep listening and learning from just us. Do some reading, the word apartheid is not very rarely used about Israel including by the former prime minister of Israel, but feel free to discount those voices as bigots. And only Jewish or palestinian people can care about oppression? Got it. So now I know how seriously to take all you non blacks when you voice your outrage about another police shooting of an innocent black man.
rvan0905 What do you mean by your condescending as fuck comment, "Honestly, I don't know what you want from us?" mean?
What do I, personally want? Or what does Palestine want?
I came in to add to the discussion, which in retrospect looks like a bad choice.
You want Palestinians "to live in peace and prosper in our own country if we chose to do so" -which is also a fucked up comment. Like innocent Palestinians have a choice in how we live right now? Have you read anything I wrote or what other posters have about life in the occupied territories?
Of course Palestinians want to live in peace in their own country. What makes up that country is the basis of the entire conflict, which you know. So, don't act some sort of way in posting that patronizing comment.
Thank you for your apology earlier. Your original comment shows that bias exists even when we aren't aware of it and this topic is not ever an easy one to discuss.
Listen. This topic has been of interest to me since I was a child. Blame my father. I grew up Pro Palestinian without understanding why. I got an A in Contemporary Politics of the Middle East in 2000 at Rutgers. My first job included a contract provision where I could not work from Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. I have been in a sukkah. So if you want to make me the boogeyman, sure.
I am not to terms with the way religious minorities can hide their differences. I say the names and it hurts too much. So sorry. I'm out of fucks to give to you.
Again the Social Justice issues in the US have squat to do with the Jewish need for a strong Israel.
They are separate problems and being able to see both of them as important as I do should be OK.
Of course Palestine should exist so should Israel.
Yes religious monitories can generally hide, for now. Though tell that to a Hasidic Jew or any Jew who wears a yarmulke or covers her head.
But singling them out has never been a problem when it benefited the government they lived under (again see France, Spain, Germany, Russia, the U.K.) so it's a temporary protection at best and not one to be trusted.
Listen. This topic has been of interest to me since I was a child. Blame my father. I grew up Pro Palestinian without understanding why. I got an A in Contemporary Politics of the Middle East in 2000 at Rutgers. My first job included a contract provision where I could not work from Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. I have been in a sukkah. So if you want to make me the boogeyman, sure.
I am not to terms with the way religious minorities can hide their differences. I say the names and it hurts too much. So sorry. I'm out of fucks to give to you.
No one's "making you" anything in this thread. You've dug your heels in and many of your comments referencing other experiences of oppression seem designed to discount those of the ladies in this thread. I.e. "The way religious minorities can hide their differences."
Just because Jewish and Palestinian people haven't suffered in the same way as other people of color doesn't mean their people haven't suffered. I'm white an I'm ashamed of what my people have done to the rest of the world.
How would that fucking work, exactly? How would you disable Israel's government and military and then it would survive? How would letting Palestinians come into Israel proper and take back property and change the constitution and laws allow it to survive? Do you even know what the actual stops are in the peace process? Do you know what the right of return even is?
Also, where is your sadness for the 900,000 Jews kicked out of Arab countries during the formation of Israel? Where is your condemnation of any other countries' war time actions? No where. Because Jews are white devils (want to check for my horns beneath my curls?) who don't experience any racism because some of us are or look white.
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You are NOT making any sense. Please calm down. This is an internet argument.
It's not just an internet argument to the Jewish posters It is an intensely personal issue that matters to them deeply because of the history I have posted multiple times.
rvan0905 What do you mean by your condescending as fuck comment, "Honestly, I don't know what you want from us?" mean?
What do I, personally want? Or what does Palestine want?
I came in to add to the discussion, which in retrospect looks like a bad choice.
You want Palestinians "to live in peace and prosper in our own country if we chose to do so" -which is also a fucked up comment. Like innocent Palestinians have a choice in how we live right now? Have you read anything I wrote or what other posters have about life in the occupied territories?
Of course Palestinians want to live in peace in their own country. What makes up that country is the basis of the entire conflict, which you know. So, don't act some sort of way in posting that patronizing comment.
Thank you for your apology earlier. Your original comment shows that bias exists even when we aren't aware of it and this topic is not ever an easy one to discuss.
I said "I don't know what you want" when I thought you were arguing that Israel is an apartheid regime, and I am so very sorry again that I misunderstood. I meant the comment "if you choose to" in terms of if you yourself wanted to move to the free country of Palestine that should exist right now. Israel's occupation of your land is immoral wrong. I apologize for not being clear. That is not acceptable, and I apologize for the hurt my words have caused.SaveSave
IT'S bs over the internet if you need help please dial 911.
I'm laughing that you read my post and came back with that. Maybe more people that disagree with you are not posting because of the aforementioned echo chamber here. Fryjack2 has posted about her family's experiences and been met with total condescension. Like y'all literally said to her thank you for sharing it is so important to hear your perspective but let me continue talking only about how we are the victims and people should keep listening and learning from just us. Do some reading, the word apartheid is not very rarely used about Israel including by the former prime minister of Israel, but feel free to discount those voices as bigots. And only Jewish or palestinian people can care about oppression? Got it. So now I know how seriously to take all you non blacks when you voice your outrage about another police shooting of an innocent black man.
Ehud Barack said that if Israel continues the land grabs in the name of settlements and refuses to work towards the two state solution Israel would be on the path to becoming an apartheid government. He is gearing up to defeat Bibi and bring the country to the left.
At least attempt to know what you are talking about before coming in with "a Jew said this so he speaks for all Jews".SaveSave
Yep and I said Israel has apartheid like policies not that it is literally an apartheid state and I stand by that. So I guess I agree with ehud Barak that it will become an apartheid government if it continues its apartheid like policies. I am well aware of what I'm talking about.
Not sure where you got the speaks for all Jews from my comment? My point is that the term is not as decidedly taboo to everyone as y'all might like people to think. But you are loose with how you talk and like to make dramatic and unsupported claims so I don't really care if you have issues with what I'm saying. Btw you still haven't apologized for sugggesting that pro-Palestinian groups want the destruction of Israel while Israel wants peace with its neighbors, but listening and learning goes just one way, right?