rvan0905 What do you mean by your condescending as fuck comment, "Honestly, I don't know what you want from us?" mean?
What do I, personally want? Or what does Palestine want?
I came in to add to the discussion, which in retrospect looks like a bad choice.
You want Palestinians "to live in peace and prosper in our own country if we chose to do so" -which is also a fucked up comment. Like innocent Palestinians have a choice in how we live right now? Have you read anything I wrote or what other posters have about life in the occupied territories?
Of course Palestinians want to live in peace in their own country. What makes up that country is the basis of the entire conflict, which you know. So, don't act some sort of way in posting that patronizing comment.
Thank you for your apology earlier. Your original comment shows that bias exists even when we aren't aware of it and this topic is not ever an easy one to discuss.
I said "I don't know what you want" when I thought you were arguing that Israel is an apartheid regime, and I am so very sorry again that I misunderstood. I meant the comment "if you choose to" in terms of if you yourself wanted to move to the free country of Palestine that should exist right now. Israel's occupation of your land is immoral wrong. I apologize for not being clear. That is not acceptable, and I apologize for the hurt my words have caused.SaveSave
Will I be labeled an anti-semite terrorist Palestinian who doesn't actually want peace if I say that I can't take your posts seriously on this topic anymore?
Three fucked up inaccurate comments geared towards me and/or Palestinians and 2 apologies in 8 pages. I mean, how many more will there be if this thread continues?
Will I be labeled an anti-semite terrorist Palestinian who doesn't actually want peace if I say that I can't take your posts seriously on this topic anymore?
Three fucked up inaccurate comments geared towards me and/or Palestinians and 2 apologies in 8 pages. I mean, how many more will there be if this thread continues?
It actually, in all seriousness, makes me sad.
I said pro-palestinian groups, like Hamas and BDS call for the destruction of Israel. Do they not?
I never called or inferred that you were a terrorist. I have been exceedingly clear that I only think that calling for the destruction of Israel is anti-semitic in terms of what I have experienced from the Palestinian viewpoint, including yours.
Now I'm somehow not credible to you because I clarified my statements, retracted errors when they were pointed out, and apologized for offense I may have caused?
You don't have to like me, you can think I'm a bitch, and that's fine. I'm not going to ignore blatant anti-Semitism because you don't see it or because people are using the struggle between our people as a way to get away with showing their Jew hatred in society.SaveSave
Except of all the people here, fryjack2 never said Israel was an apartheid regime - she said that her family is experiencing things that are similar to experiences of apartheid. And I personally know that she supports the existence of the state of Israel. But at the same time, Israel is oppressing her family, so she's going to come at the issue from one direction. On the other hand, we see people using Israel and their views towards their policies as a vehicle for justification of anti-semitism, and therefore we come at it from another direction. But in this particular case, I promise you, that's not what is happening.
rvan0905 and I'm not going to ignore blatant anti-Palestinian comments just because you, and others apologize for them.
Negativity and prejudice towards Arabs and Muslims and Palestinians is so prevalent. I can see it as easily as you see anti-semitism.
I don't always speak up about it because I am afraid of what I will be incorrectly labeled. Which is what I meant by my first sentence -Not that you called me those things.
I don't think you are a bitch and I don't know you well enough to not like you. But based on THIS thread, I will not read your posts the same way. Words have meaning and there are consequences for saying them. I'm just one random poster, so it won't really matter what I think anyway.
I should have been posting Eid pictures to FB for my family to see like I had intended to do instead of getting side tracked in this thread. I need to go do that.
Any lurkers reading this who may celebrate, Eid Mubarak to you!
I should have been posting Eid pictures to FB for my family to see like I had intended to do instead of getting side tracked in this thread. I need to go do that.
Any lurkers reading this who may celebrate, Eid Mubarak to you!
Eid Mubarak to you fryjack! Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.
Wading into the fray of a subject I don't know enough about to merely say that this thread (again) breaks my heart, to see the infighting among us. Jews *are* a minority discriminated against for centuries. Israelis *are* oppressing Palestinians in occupied territories. You can have one while having the other. Nobody (afaik) has said otherwise. It Is distressing to see a minority telling another that "you're not oppressed enough to speak on oppression." Oppression is oppression, no matter the type or caliber. And yes, an oppressor can also be oppressed as well; they are not mutually exclusive.
There has been no way to balance the needs and identities of both successfully, and we aren't going to get there any time soon. There is too much imbalance, hate, misinformation and distrust between the two sides. I'm not versed enough to say anything beyond the solution should be a two-state solution, but I don't see how it can be done, not until the two sides can talk to each other and learn to trust each other. And that won't be happening under the current policies.
Thank you fryjack2 for your input into these discussions. As the sole Palestinian voice on this board, it is *extremely* important that we hear your stories and that you are not discounted. And thanks to rvan0905AJLrjamz (especially noting your support of fryjack) and others for their views, education and information.
I'm currently reading and watching Frontline's "Battle for the Holy Land" in an effort to be more versed on this. It's so far athe closest I've been able to find to the PBS show that I saw back in 1995 that first set me back on my heels regarding this subject. There is no way I can ever feel educated on this subject. It is too nuanced, with way too many emotions involved, for me to ever think I'll know even enough to be stupid on the subject, let alone informed, particularly as a white Christian whose only introduction to the subject could ever be "someone I know..." I learned this the hard way too many years ago.
On another, much shorter note, how many times have we said that we need to listen when a minority gets to say what is offensive to them, and those who are not of the minority need to pay attention? That it's not their job to educate us? Re: Becky, there is a whole *host* of Jewish women who have said "this is offensive to us" and stated why, to them, it was. Whether there are other groups who use the same name, they, as a group, have stated that they believe the reason for the use of that particular name in that particular manner is offensive to them. They should not be shouted down, or shut down, just because others view it differently.
We, as a board, have said that many times in the past. "Listen and learn" should apply in all aspects, not just at selected, convenient, times. I hope that those who were commenting take a moment to reflect why they were reactive, and to hopefully "listen and learn" here instead of trying to teach a minority group a lesson as to why they are wrong to feel as they do.
(Been on vacation but wanted to say something anyway, no matter how untimely.)
I get why Israel is a global necessity. I disagree that apartheid is necessary for that goal. Shall we present all the unmaimed handmaid's?
4th glass in fyi
 Oh. Well. That seems like a good plan. Tipsy posting on the topic of antisemitism and Israeli/Palestinian relations. Sure. Do that. It's not a serious and personal topic to many here or anything.
Thank you for posting this as I couldn't believe the word kept getting repeated and then explained away by this? It's gross and I'm surprised more haven't spoken against it.
To the rest....I am reading each account and my heart is with all sharing these painful stories and concerns.
The digging in of heels on using the word apartheid, and the dismissal of experiences, is amazing. I can't have a conversation with someone who does this. I applaud those who have the fortitude, but it feels like just trolling now.
fryjack2 I am another Jew who appreciates you sharing your perspective and will always welcome it. Thank you.
Chiming in despite having stepped back into lurker status the last couple of years. I saw the "Where are you guys?!" post. I hope more folks weigh in on the weekdays to make it clear that we can argue about Israel without falling into the anti-Semiticism that slid into this thread.
Regardless of the terrible conflicts in Israel, the agonizing position of Israeli Jews and deplorable conditions of Palestinians, conflating Jewishness with Israel is gross. Dismissing the persecution of Jews in the U.S. is gross. Dismissing the holocaust because of slavery is downright disturbing and appalling.
The Anti-Semitism that creeped into the left, here and in Europe is so disturbing. I have had other non-Jewish acquaintances (liberal intellectuals specifically) make casual remarks that are basically along the lines of "Well, they're miserly because they're Jewish." Even the notion that Jews in America have had a "good run" isn't totally accurate. My friends have feared burning crosses and hate crimes as long as I've known them.
Coming from New Orleans, I saw a fair amount of mutual antipathy among Jewish folks and African Americans there. Both groups having internalized the same bigoted nonsense from racist, anti-Semitic white supremacist hegemonic society. No need to recapitulate it on this board.
Will I be labeled an anti-semite terrorist Palestinian who doesn't actually want peace if I say that I can't take your posts seriously on this topic anymore?
Three fucked up inaccurate comments geared towards me and/or Palestinians and 2 apologies in 8 pages. I mean, how many more will there be if this thread continues?
It actually, in all seriousness, makes me sad.
I said pro-palestinian groups, like Hamas and BDS call for the destruction of Israel. Do they not?
I never called or inferred that you were a terrorist. I have been exceedingly clear that I only think that calling for the destruction of Israel is anti-semitic in terms of what I have experienced from the Palestinian viewpoint, including yours.
Now I'm somehow not credible to you because I clarified my statements, retracted errors when they were pointed out, and apologized for offense I may have caused?
You don't have to like me, you can think I'm a bitch, and that's fine. I'm not going to ignore blatant anti-Semitism because you don't see it or because people are using the struggle between our people as a way to get away with showing their Jew hatred in society.SaveSav
Lurker feeling the need to jump into this painful conversation. This is about how it goes when my own (Jewish) family tries to discuss Israel-Palestine, so it's no surprise to see it happening here, but it stings nonetheless. I am grateful to both fryjack2 and to several of my Jewish sisters for sharing their experiences---there's trauma on every side of this experience, and we won't get anywhere until we acknowledge our own and each other's.
I did want to respond to the bolded above. I can't speak to Hamas's charter, but BDS is a strategy/a tool, not a movement in and of itself, and not everyone who advocates some form of BDS seeks to destroy Israel, economically or in any other way. I'm tangentially involved with Jewish Voice for Peace, which is pro-BDs , and I'm still figuring out my own response to BDS. But there's a wide range between boycotting any company with a presence in Israel and boycotting products made by Israeli companies manufacturing in, and using resources from, the West Bank. Both of these examples fall under the broad umbrella of BDS, but the latter, in my view, seeks specific shifts from specific private companies, not broad devastation.
Post by sugarglider on Jun 26, 2017 7:49:40 GMT -5
As a cis WASP woman, I recognize I benefit from every privilege except male.
There are several topics being discussed here that require a great deal of nuance and careful word choice in order to not offend. And it's troubling that we as a board are not there yet with these topics. It is no fun being called a bigot, racist, or anti-Semite. But it's also important to recognize in ourselves what we did to earn that label. I truly appreciate the patience of the black women on this board who have taken the time to identify microaggressions. And I appreciate the same of the Jewish women in here who have done the same. (Having grown up in a part of the Midwest where there are almost no Jewish people, I actually didn't know any of the negative stereotypes until I moved to NY for college.)
What makes this discussion particularly delicate is that we have three broad POVs of persons who have faced some type of oppression(s)--Jewish people, Arab/Palestenian/Muslim people, and black people. And they're all being injured by everyone in here, both intentionally and not.
For example, the "Becky" discussion--the term, "Becky," as slang comes from the AA community to describe a particular type of white woman (particularly even me in certain circumstances). Now, while it has Hebrew roots, it is a very popular, very common name among non-Jewish white women. So, it's important to recognize that this is, at its core, not intended to be an anti-Semitic term. That said, it is important to consider the Hebrew roots of the name Becky in the context of discussions on Israel. Because what is meant to be an eyeroll at upper class white women clutching their pearls shifts in its meaning when most/all of those women are Jewish. But it is also important to remember that outside the context of this discussion, it is still a common slang term used by WOC. And so it's condescending for my fellow non-Jewish white women to come in here and declare a moratorium on the word that is not ours to use in the first place.
Basically, I want everyone in here to be nice and love each other. But as someone who would like to be an ally to all three of the general groups (which are intersectional among themselves as well), I don't like the SJW mindset coming in and attempting to police this situation, as well-intentioned as it is. And that's probably very hypocritical of me to say when I want everyone to hold hands and sing hippie music. But looking beyond the labels being tossed back and forth, there are productive points being made. So thank you to ALL of you who have posted through extremely emotional and sensitive topics.
I said pro-palestinian groups, like Hamas and BDS call for the destruction of Israel. Do they not?
I never called or inferred that you were a terrorist. I have been exceedingly clear that I only think that calling for the destruction of Israel is anti-semitic in terms of what I have experienced from the Palestinian viewpoint, including yours.
Now I'm somehow not credible to you because I clarified my statements, retracted errors when they were pointed out, and apologized for offense I may have caused?
You don't have to like me, you can think I'm a bitch, and that's fine. I'm not going to ignore blatant anti-Semitism because you don't see it or because people are using the struggle between our people as a way to get away with showing their Jew hatred in society.SaveSav
Lurker feeling the need to jump into this painful conversation. This is about how it goes when my own (Jewish) family tries to discuss Israel-Palestine, so it's no surprise to see it happening here, but it stings nonetheless. I am grateful to both fryjack2 and to several of my Jewish sisters for sharing their experiences---there's trauma on every side of this experience, and we won't get anywhere until we acknowledge our own and each other's.
I did want to respond to the bolded above. I can't speak to Hamas's charter, but BDS is a strategy/a tool, not a movement in and of itself, and not everyone who advocates some form of BDS seeks to destroy Israel, economically or in any other way. I'm tangentially involved with Jewish Voice for Peace, which is pro-BDs , and I'm still figuring out my own response to BDS. But there's a wide range between boycotting any company with a presence in Israel and boycotting products made by Israeli companies manufacturing in, and using resources from, the West Bank. Both of these examples fall under the broad umbrella of BDS, but the latter, in my view, seeks specific shifts from specific private companies, not broad devastation.
Peace to all.
I'm intrigued by your stance on BDS. I've never met another Jew who was pro-BDS and I'm legitimately asking this out of curiosity on what led you there.
I'm firmly opposed to any intellectual boycott like some of the British universities have engaged in (not allowing the papers of Israeli academics to be published and things like that) because the exchange of ideas is one of the most useful tools that we have. I understand not investing in a company that actively participates in the destruction of Palestinian homes and land to make way for settlements.
It's the in between I'm most curious about. What about Israeli drug companies that create life saving drugs? Or a company like Sodastream which employed local Palestinians and paid them and promoted them equally to their Israeli employees until they moved their factories out of the West Bank (and yes, having their factory there in the first place was a problem, but all in all, they were willing to work with local Palestinian authorities to make it an investment in the local community until international pressure forced them to move).
Lurker feeling the need to jump into this painful conversation. This is about how it goes when my own (Jewish) family tries to discuss Israel-Palestine, so it's no surprise to see it happening here, but it stings nonetheless. I am grateful to both fryjack2 and to several of my Jewish sisters for sharing their experiences---there's trauma on every side of this experience, and we won't get anywhere until we acknowledge our own and each other's.
I did want to respond to the bolded above. I can't speak to Hamas's charter, but BDS is a strategy/a tool, not a movement in and of itself, and not everyone who advocates some form of BDS seeks to destroy Israel, economically or in any other way. I'm tangentially involved with Jewish Voice for Peace, which is pro-BDs , and I'm still figuring out my own response to BDS. But there's a wide range between boycotting any company with a presence in Israel and boycotting products made by Israeli companies manufacturing in, and using resources from, the West Bank. Both of these examples fall under the broad umbrella of BDS, but the latter, in my view, seeks specific shifts from specific private companies, not broad devastation.
Peace to all.
I'm intrigued by your stance on BDS. I've never met another Jew who was pro-BDS and I'm legitimately asking this out of curiosity on what led you there.
I'm firmly opposed to any intellectual boycott like some of the British universities have engaged in (not allowing the papers of Israeli academics to be published and things like that) because the exchange of ideas is one of the most useful tools that we have. I understand not investing in a company that actively participates in the destruction of Palestinian homes and land to make way for settlements.
It's the in between I'm most curious about. What about Israeli drug companies that create life saving drugs? Or a company like Sodastream which employed local Palestinians and paid them and promoted them equally to their Israeli employees until they moved their factories out of the West Bank (and yes, having their factory there in the first place was a problem, but all in all, they were willing to work with local Palestinian authorities to make it an investment in the local community until international pressure forced them to move).
Right. Those in-between places are the ones I struggle to figure out. I'm also totally opposed to academic boycotts, because in general I believe that discourse is better than not. I don't personally see a need to, say, boycott technology made in Tel Aviv. But companies directly participating in the occupation, I will boycott. My point is only that BDS is a broad strategy, and it's tough to generalize about everything it could encompass. I'm coming from a shul community that's probably 1/3 supportive of *some* BDS measures, so I know it's an unusual perspective.
I'm intrigued by your stance on BDS. I've never met another Jew who was pro-BDS and I'm legitimately asking this out of curiosity on what led you there.
I'm firmly opposed to any intellectual boycott like some of the British universities have engaged in (not allowing the papers of Israeli academics to be published and things like that) because the exchange of ideas is one of the most useful tools that we have. I understand not investing in a company that actively participates in the destruction of Palestinian homes and land to make way for settlements.
It's the in between I'm most curious about. What about Israeli drug companies that create life saving drugs? Or a company like Sodastream which employed local Palestinians and paid them and promoted them equally to their Israeli employees until they moved their factories out of the West Bank (and yes, having their factory there in the first place was a problem, but all in all, they were willing to work with local Palestinian authorities to make it an investment in the local community until international pressure forced them to move).
Right. Those in-between places are the ones I struggle to figure out. I'm also totally opposed to academic boycotts, because in general I believe that discourse is better than not. I don't personally see a need to, say, boycott technology made in Tel Aviv. But companies directly participating in the occupation, I will boycott. My point is only that BDS is a broad strategy, and it's tough to generalize about everything it could encompass. I'm coming from a shul community that's probably 1/3 supportive of *some* BDS measures, so I know it's an unusual perspective.
There's just an automatic reaction to BDS in my community (actually, in the one I grew up in. I have a feeling things are different in the far more liberal one I live in now) that I have trouble vocalizing even my support for divesting in companies that actively take a role in the occupation. So often BDS is always assumed to be the "anything that comes out of Israel" stance that it's difficult to even begin the conversation, so I really appreciate being able to discuss this with you.
I'm not sure what to say in this thread. I feel terrible that it got so ugly as all threads on this topic seem to do.
But I'm someone that feels pretty well versed on both sides of the argument. I got my Masters in foreign affairs. I took an entire class on genocide in the Holocaust and wrote a 20-page paper on French collaboration during the Holocaust. I've read a few books recently on the history of the Balfour Declaration and WWI/WWII, which I would recommend to anyone who wants to know the history of how we got here, which I think is pretty important.
I believe that Israel is here to stay. It doesn't mean that I don't disagree with how it was created and what happened to people that were living on the land where they settled.
I believe that US has a role in guiding Israel towards a two-state solution and that we and other Western allies can have a profound impact in the area if we play our cards right. Israel is one of the few democracies in the region and our ally, so yes we hold them to a higher standard than most other countries. Just like we would Great Britain or France if they were violating international agreements. Stability in Israel is in the interest of the entire world.
The Palestinian people are caught in the middle. How are they supposed to work towards a two-state solution for a government that treats them as second-class citizens? They don't have a voice in the world. The Israeli government has shown in recent years that they are going to do whatever they want, international agreements be damned.
Terrorism is not the answer, but it's easy to see why Palestinians would turn towards terrorism when they are dealt such a difficult hand.
It is a very complicated issue and there is no easy solution. Unfortunately, I don't believe the current administration will do anything to help the situation.
I am caught up. Honestly, this topic is one on which I am not very knowledgeable, and it feels....I don't know, maybe like I'm trying white-splain, or talk just to hear myself talk...if I jump in on a topic like this, because I don't know that much and for some people in this thread it is an intensely personal topic. So usually with Israel discussions I read along but I don't comment because I don't feel like I have anything constructive to add.
That said, I didn't see how the thread derailed over the weekend and I'm sorry for all those who felt like their perspectives were dismissed. I agree with the points that the term "apartheid state" has a specific definition and meaning and it should not be tossed around lightly. Based on what I do know, I don't think Israel is blameless or perfect(I know no one in this thread has said that) but I definitely think Israel has the right to exist, so like many others much smarter and more knowledgeable than me I don't know the solution.
Post by iammalcolmx on Jun 26, 2017 8:37:25 GMT -5
Didn't we have another thread where we agreed to NOT call Israel an apartheid state? That was the thread which made BunnyBean leave. Why are we doing this all over again? Also I am sad I can't say Becky anymore DAMMIT!
Thank you. (And in a thread with a lot of snarkiness, I mean that sincerely.)
When I started this whole thing, I didn't think I would touch the nerve that I did, and I didn't think it would be perceived as me stepping on someone else's safe space with my delicate feelings.
Just don't ... waltz into a thread about Israel using the term Becky. Because emotions are running high and Jews have had their supposed wealth thrown into their face throughout history. (I've been called a JAP enough times in my life to know how that goes.) Context matters. And that goes for white women too if they're using it toward Jewish girls.
Right. Those in-between places are the ones I struggle to figure out. I'm also totally opposed to academic boycotts, because in general I believe that discourse is better than not. I don't personally see a need to, say, boycott technology made in Tel Aviv. But companies directly participating in the occupation, I will boycott. My point is only that BDS is a broad strategy, and it's tough to generalize about everything it could encompass. I'm coming from a shul community that's probably 1/3 supportive of *some* BDS measures, so I know it's an unusual perspective.
There's just an automatic reaction to BDS in my community (actually, in the one I grew up in. I have a feeling things are different in the far more liberal one I live in now) that I have trouble vocalizing even my support for divesting in companies that actively take a role in the occupation. So often BDS is always assumed to be the "anything that comes out of Israel" stance that it's difficult to even begin the conversation, so I really appreciate being able to discuss this with you.
I am familiar with that reaction, and I also appreciate the opportunity to discuss the full spectrum of BDS as a strategy.
We got 300 mill and counting? Do you really want to play this game?
Oh and guess what I pay taxes for the state to kill me.
You are missing the point. Israel was created in 1948 because for 500 yrs Jews had been kicked out of countries or prevented from immigrating for being Jewish and faced death because of it. Ending with the Holocaust where millions died because they were denied visas solely on the basis of their religion. Israel was formed because the International community accepted its need to exist as a safe guard.
One can support that and still support Social Justice issues in the US.
* also the 6 million is strictly the Holocaust not the Progroms, expulsions, Spanish Inqusition Deaths, the random acts of violence against Jewish communities, KKK deaths, men like Leo Frank who was lynched.
This is as far as I have gotten and this thread has been all over the place. But this was the question I asked a million years ago and looking at Wikipedia and other sources has not answered this question for me.
I fully understand why Israel was created in 1948. I fully understand that it was needed so the entire Jewish population was not exterminated (sorry if that isn't an appropriate term). But I also assume that there were inhabitants already on this land when Israel was created in 1948. What happened to those people? Who were those people? Were they Palestinians? What was supposed to happen when land that was occupied was given to other people? Jewish people are saying this land was returned to them if I am not mistaken and Palestinians are saying that the land was theirs, so how do you resolve that? Because deep down isn't this what it all comes down to?
Thank you. (And in a thread with a lot of snarkiness, I mean that sincerely.)
When I started this whole thing, I didn't think I would touch the nerve that I did, and I didn't think it would be perceived as me stepping on someone else's safe space with my delicate feelings.
Just don't ... waltz into a thread about Israel using the term Becky. Because emotions are running high and Jews have had their supposed wealth thrown into their face throughout history. (I've been called a JAP enough times in my life to know how that goes.) Context matters. And that goes for white women too if they're using it toward Jewish girls.
This is where i am too. I think also, pointing out that the name is jewish and that it bothers some of us when its used that way shouldnt be greeted with people rolling their eyes, telling us its not antisemitic because its sir mix-a-lot or beyonce (neither of whom are perfect, last i checked), and telling us we are coopting a name that IS jewish, is pretty fucked up.
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 26, 2017 9:21:09 GMT -5
"I supported BLM until they actively began discriminating against me and mine. I still cape for black rights and empowerment, but I don't support an organization that calls for my annihilation."
Wait Black Lives Matter calls for the annialiton of jewish people?
Can I have a citation for that?
I assume the pp was referring to this, from the official movement for black lives platform/demands:
he US justifies and advances the global war on terror via its alliance with Israel and is complicit in the genocide taking place against the Palestinian people. The US requires Israel to use 75 percent of all the military aid it receives to buy US-made arms. Consequently, every year billions of dollars are funneled from US taxpayers to hundreds of arms corporations, who then wage lobbying campaigns pushing for even more foreign military aid. The results of this policy are twofold: it not only diverts much needed funding from domestic education and social programs, but it makes US citizens complicit in the abuses committed by the Israeli government. Israel is an apartheid state with over 50 laws on the books that sanction discrimination against the Palestinian people. Palestinian homes and land are routinely bulldozed to make way for illegal Israeli settlements. Israeli soldiers also regularly arrest and detain Palestinians as young as 4 years old without due process. Everyday, Palestinians are forced to walk through military checkpoints along the US-funded apartheid wall.