Post by CheeringCharm on Oct 10, 2017 9:04:56 GMT -5
Also now that I think about it, it's BS that Clooney tries to shame Sharon Waxman and calls her out by name for bowing to pressure and spiking her article on Weinstein and then keeping quiet on the info she had gathered on him instead of shaming his pals Matt Damon and Russell Crowe, the NYT editorial board, and the TWC board for pressuring her in the first place! Gross how men always band together.
I assume the reason she never published what she had was because she didn't want to get sued to kingdom come.
Lainey Gossip had one of the most famous and specific blinds in like 2009 and she's mentioned before that the lawyers came after her hard. And that was a no name blind on a gossip site.
I'll be interested to see if Blake Lively says anything. The rumors swirled that she was who Harvey ditched Gretchen Mol to pursue but that she was resisting his advances.
There's plenty of blame to go around but I also think it's important to continue to point out that he chose his targets carefully. Because we are human and we do ignore and live in denial for our own purposes - and part of understanding how to prevent these things is to realize how it happens to begin with and that includes how the perpetrators choose victims.
Also I'm pretty sure the picture rumor/gossip has been around for awhile - specifically with regards to Gretchen Mol.
I feel bad for her. The blinds and rumors about her are the worst. Very sad that she's getting dragged through all this again.
On other sites, people are asking why Rose McGowan is coming off so hostile and combative (she tweeted at Matt Damon last night "what's it like to be a spineless profiteer who stays silent?"). Put yourself in her shoes. Imagine you told people this very powerful man raped you and no one believed you or, more likely, just didn't care. You have to see your rapist continue to be celebrated by the upper echelon of your industry. And then even after the legal evidence comes out, people stay silent. No wonder she is furious. It would be crazy making imo.
Observers are less cognitively busy and more open to information than actors.
This is why Meryl didn’t know. Hollywood is a bubble, a self-sustaining bubble. Meryl and many of the major stars who are now coming forward claiming they didn’t know have been privileged by a hierarchical system that not only separates celebrities from civilians but also celebrities from each other. And the most powerful players within that ecosystem take advantage of that hierarchy to abuse their own control. The way Harvey treated Meryl is not the way Harvey would have treated a young actress hoping to become the next Meryl. And the hierarchy would have prevented that young actress from addressing their experiences with the Meryls in Hollywood, should they have the opportunity to come across them. Can you imagine anyone having that conversation with Meryl Streep and not fearing judgment after so many years – an entire history, really – of seeing what happens to women who speak up and speak out? It’s taken generations for us to even acknowledge that conditioning. It’ll take even longer for us to break it.
Here's what I don't buy about this. I get what she's saying about the bubble Meryl Streep would live in. But for that very reason, she has tons of people working for her - her manager, agent, publicist, PAs, etc. etc. Those people would have been in a position to know and if they wanted to protect her, common sense suggests they would have told her. Also she has daughters who are up and coming actresses. No HW most likely wouldn't have tried anything on them. But presumably they have friends who are actresses and their own "people" - all of whom would have been in a position to hear these rumors and warn them. Jessica Chastain said she heard warnings from the beginning of her career about him. Wouldn't people have warned Meryl's daughters or their friends to avoid him? Wouldn't they have been part of gossip sessions that are common among friends in the same business? If they heard, wouldn't it be natural to be like "hey mom, what do you think of this story?"
As for Meryl’s assertion that if everyone had known, the media would have broken the story a long time ago, there are many reporters on the record who say they've been going after this story for a LONG time. They've just been waiting for someone to be willing to go on record and sit down and talk about. Come to find out, the reason why so many of the women wouldn't do that is because they signed away their right to talk when they accepted a settlement. So that part of her excuse makes no sense even just logically speaking.
George and whoever follows him is going to say "Oh, I heard rumors I just didn't know they were true/thought it wasn't that bad" spin because they can't claim ignorance now that Chastain and others have come out saying it was known. I just don't believe anyone acting like they didn't know since this is so prevelant in Hollywood.
Observers are less cognitively busy and more open to information than actors.
This is why Meryl didn’t know. Hollywood is a bubble, a self-sustaining bubble. Meryl and many of the major stars who are now coming forward claiming they didn’t know have been privileged by a hierarchical system that not only separates celebrities from civilians but also celebrities from each other. And the most powerful players within that ecosystem take advantage of that hierarchy to abuse their own control. The way Harvey treated Meryl is not the way Harvey would have treated a young actress hoping to become the next Meryl. And the hierarchy would have prevented that young actress from addressing their experiences with the Meryls in Hollywood, should they have the opportunity to come across them. Can you imagine anyone having that conversation with Meryl Streep and not fearing judgment after so many years – an entire history, really – of seeing what happens to women who speak up and speak out? It’s taken generations for us to even acknowledge that conditioning. It’ll take even longer for us to break it.
Here's what I don't buy about this. I get what she's saying about the bubble Meryl Streep would live in. But for that very reason, she has tons of people working for her - her manager, agent, publicist, PAs, etc. etc. Those people would have been in a position to know and if they wanted to protect her, common sense suggests they would have told her. Also she has daughters who are up and coming actresses. No HW most likely wouldn't have tried anything on them. But presumably they have friends who are actresses and their own "people" - all of whom would have been in a position to hear these rumors and warn them. Jessica Chastain said she heard warnings from the beginning of her career about him. Wouldn't people have warned Meryl's daughters or their friends to avoid him? Wouldn't they have been part of gossip sessions that are common among friends in the same business? If they heard, wouldn't it be natural to be like "hey mom, what do you think of this story?"
As for Meryl’s assertion that if everyone had known, the media would have broken the story a long time ago, there are many reporters on the record who say they've been going after this story for a LONG time. They've just been waiting for someone to be willing to go on record and sit down and talk about. Come to find out, the reason why so many of the women wouldn't do that is because they signed away their right to talk when they accepted a settlement. So that part of her excuse makes no sense even just logically speaking.
I think there's an element of truth as to why stuff wasn't brought to Meryl and the bubble. But I still think some things probably penetrated. I doubt Meryl would be like "well I did hear some rumors of so and so sleeping with harvey but it seemed like a mutually beneficial arrangement so I didn't think anything of it."
At the same time Lainey tends to know a lot about Hollywood and celebrity so I don't want to totally dismiss her thoughts on the subject because she knows way more than I do as to how Hollywood operates. I also think being able to deny knowing might be more protection than warning someone like Meryl.
Post by CheeringCharm on Oct 10, 2017 9:50:32 GMT -5
I would bet serious money that Meryl heard the rumors about some things (probably the coercion stuff but not the more disturbing stories about making women watch him jerk off) but had no proof and didn't want to believe this about a long time friend who has always treated her very well (I mean, who would really) so she looked the other way. It's human nature and obviously she wouldn't have been the only one to make that call. She just doesn't want to admit it now that she was wrong to ignore the fact that her friend was coercing young women into sex.
Thinking about this now, it is interesting to see where people draw the line on what they consider to be reprehensible behavior. Obviously everyone is disturbed and grossed out by that poor tv anchor's story about being forced to watch him masturbate into a potted plant. But is it not disgusting to coerce a young woman who would never normally sleep with you in a million years to do so by promising her a role in a movie? That's not disgusting behavior that should be shamed? She wouldn't mind if someone put one of her daughters in that situation? It's all gross.
Except the "ol' Harvey is a dog" bullshit IS terrible. He's a man of power chasing women. Not looking for a mate, just looking to bone. And where does that leave them? They're all just a lot of prey, fish in a barrel, meaningless and unimportant. Did anyone step up and give them any thought or camaraderie? Nope, they left them to fend for themselves. And that in and of itself is disappointing at best, but mostly disgusting.
Exactly. I don't buy that you can think he's a "dog" who chases young actresses WITHOUT thinking about the power differential and related implications. What that really means is that you think either that the women were getting something out of it that makes bargaining their bodies okay or that they're beneath your notice.
Post by sofamonkey on Oct 10, 2017 10:28:38 GMT -5
I also think a lot of these "I didn't know" fools didn't know because they purposely turned a blind eye to all of the shit happening. Both the coercion they saw, and the rumors. They could have at ANY point looked into it at all. But they just flat out didn't care. And that will forever be on them.
Except the "ol' Harvey is a dog" bullshit IS terrible. He's a man of power chasing women. Not looking for a mate, just looking to bone. And where does that leave them? They're all just a lot of prey, fish in a barrel, meaningless and unimportant. Did anyone step up and give them any thought or camaraderie? Nope, they left them to fend for themselves. And that in and of itself is disappointing at best, but mostly disgusting.
Exactly. I don't buy that you can think he's a "dog" who chases young actresses WITHOUT thinking about the power differential and related implications. What that really means is that you think either that the women were getting something out of it that makes bargaining their bodies okay or that they're beneath your notice.
And how can they ignore that when women refuse these advances or speak out against them that they are blacklisted in the industry?
Except the "ol' Harvey is a dog" bullshit IS terrible. He's a man of power chasing women. Not looking for a mate, just looking to bone. And where does that leave them? They're all just a lot of prey, fish in a barrel, meaningless and unimportant. Did anyone step up and give them any thought or camaraderie? Nope, they left them to fend for themselves. And that in and of itself is disappointing at best, but mostly disgusting.
Exactly. I don't buy that you can think he's a "dog" who chases young actresses WITHOUT thinking about the power differential and related implications. What that really means is that you think either that the women were getting something out of it that makes bargaining their bodies okay or that they're beneath your notice.
Yes. They absolutely thought these peons were beneath them.
Exactly. I don't buy that you can think he's a "dog" who chases young actresses WITHOUT thinking about the power differential and related implications. What that really means is that you think either that the women were getting something out of it that makes bargaining their bodies okay or that they're beneath your notice.
And how can they ignore that when women refuse these advances or speak out against them that they are blacklisted in the industry?
I believe that Meryl didn't know. Like eclaires said HW picked his victims carefully and Meryl was never among them. I know there's this huge push now to figure out who knew what and when, and I'm sure that many who were NOT victims knew what was going on. I'm just not understanding the insistence that Meryl HAD to know and that there's NO WAY she didn't know. Maybe she did and her statement is full of BS. Maybe she knew stuff along the lines of what George Clooney was saying. Maybe she knew nothing and lives in her own little bubble.
I find Clooney's comments to be a lot more troublesome for reasons others have said. So you didn't know about the harassment (which I believe) but you were okay with him being "a dog" because that's just how he was and just how the world works? Rich men like pretty young girls on their arms and *shrug* nothing we can do about it, even if the pretty young girl desperately wants to be successful in the rich man's industry. Nothing untoward there at all. Its just life.
Celebitchy (don't judge) posted some excerpts from Ronan Farrow's New Yorker article about this. I'm going to read the article itself in a minute. It seems....intense.
I'm surprised because I thought Gwyneth would have been totally off limits based on who her parents were. Maybe he didn't choose his victims carefully. Maybe they were all just so ashamed and intimidated by the interactions they didnt speak about them.
I believe that Meryl didn't know. Like eclaires said HW picked his victims carefully and Meryl was never among them. I know there's this huge push now to figure out who knew what and when, and I'm sure that many who were NOT victims knew what was going on. I'm just not understanding the insistence that Meryl HAD to know and that there's NO WAY she didn't know. Maybe she did and her statement is full of BS. Maybe she knew stuff along the lines of what George Clooney was saying. Maybe she knew nothing and lives in her own little bubble.
I find Clooney's comments to be a lot more troublesome for reasons others have said. So you didn't know about the harassment (which I believe) but you were okay with him being "a dog" because that's just how he was and just how the world works? Rich men like pretty young girls on their arms and *shrug* nothing we can do about it, even if the pretty young girl desperately wants to be successful in the rich man's industry. Nothing untoward there at all. Its just life.
I didn't read Clooney's comments that way. He said he didn't want to give credence to the rumors because the rumors seemed to be a way of denigrating actresses by implying they weren't talented enough to land parts on their own merits. This is assuming you buy his belief that those women were with Harvey by their own choice, and not that they were coerced.
You know what tells me where we are fucked as a society...the part where Rosanna Arquette recounts this horrifying story and then says "I'm not that girl. I will never be that girl." Fuck man. It's so ingrained in us, will we ever do better?
I'm surprised because I thought Gwyneth would have been totally off limits based on who her parents were. Maybe he didn't choose his victims carefully. Maybe they were all just so ashamed and intimidated by the interactions they didnt speak about them.
Same with Jolie (I haven't read the link yet, I just see her name in the URL so I don't know what she said.)
I think the thing with Meryl too is that they are the same age, more or less. Meryl has been a pretty big Hollywood star since the 70s. These stories of harassment/assault/rape all center on actresses who were significantly younger than him. (meryl is 68, HW is 65.) I don't know the timeline for Miramax and its success, but it could be that by the time HW was someone who was able to get away with these things, Meryl was already too famous for him. She didn't need Harvey's "help" to get good scripts. Someone like Gwyneth, even with her parents, still needed help for good scripts at that point.
I'm reading all these allegations and stuff and I'm just like.....who were the people covering this up?? I know that he was/is "powerful" in Hollywood but he was raping women and people in his company knew about it.
So Brad Pitt knew? I'm glad he confronted Weinstein but you figure Jolie probably also told him about her experience at some point, since she says she refused to work with HW ever again.
I guess I am starting to fall into the camp of "people who say they didn't know are full of BS" since its starting to seem like literally EVERYONE knew.
I'm surprised because I thought Gwyneth would have been totally off limits based on who her parents were. Maybe he didn't choose his victims carefully. Maybe they were all just so ashamed and intimidated by the interactions they didnt speak about them.
Same with Jolie (I haven't read the link yet, I just see her name in the URL so I don't know what she said.)
I think the thing with Meryl too is that they are the same age, more or less. Meryl has been a pretty big Hollywood star since the 70s. These stories of harassment/assault/rape all center on actresses who were significantly younger than him. (meryl is 68, HW is 65.) I don't know the timeline for Miramax and its success, but it could be that by the time HW was someone who was able to get away with these things, Meryl was already too famous for him. She didn't need Harvey's "help" to get good scripts. Someone like Gwyneth, even with her parents, still needed help for good scripts at that point.
I'm reading all these allegations and stuff and I'm just like.....who were the people covering this up?? I know that he was/is "powerful" in Hollywood but he was raping women and people in his company knew about it.
It seems like a lot of the cover up came from the company. Obviously the names we all know are actors and actresses but based on his MO his actions seem like they'd be relatively easy to shield from them. Because he did it during the casting process or as a way to get access to good scripts - all things that would happen without much interference or input from outside the company.
I also note that George mentions rumors from the 90s and I wonder if after Gwyneth told him no (and some others) people did know of that (since she told Brad Pitt) and after that he focused on less powerful/connected women. It seems like as you get closer to the 2000s the women speaking up are less connected.
It also sounds like from the New Yorker article he really intimidated his victims and tried to smear them in the news/gossip sites. Just sad and disgusting all around.
I’m not finished with the article but it’s so heartbreaking that these women are forced to maintain contact with their rapist and assaulter or they wouldn’t have careers. The power dynamic is so extreme in these situations and I hate reading how every one of them blamed themselves.
Post by CheeringCharm on Oct 10, 2017 12:55:37 GMT -5
I'm really surprised he harassed Gwenyth and Angelina. They both seem like their connections would have been too powerful and established for that. GP's godfather is Steven Spielberg! Kudos to Brad Pitt for confronting him. That must have been tough.
From the article, this is the kind of thing that makes me doubt people who say they really and truly had NO inkling and never heard ANY whispers:
His alleged behavior became something of a Hollywood open secret: When the comedian Seth MacFarlane announced Oscar nominees in 2013, he joked, “Congratulations, you five ladies no longer have to pretend to be attracted to Harvey Weinstein.”
Ronan Farrow's article was hard to read. The fact that Weinstein used his female employees as honey pots to lure in vulnerable actresses by making them feel comfortable and then asking them leave so he could swoop in for the kill and assault/rape them if he had to is sickening. He clearly got off on putting women in vulnerable positions and humiliating/frightening them. It's sociopathic. I don't even know what to say about the fact that so many of his employees knew this was going on but kept working for him anyway. It's truly stunning that this type of behavior went on for so long and no one ever said anything publicly about it until now.
I'm surprised because I thought Gwyneth would have been totally off limits based on who her parents were. Maybe he didn't choose his victims carefully. Maybe they were all just so ashamed and intimidated by the interactions they didnt speak about them.
This right here says they ALL knew something was up. Men enabled it by ignoring it. Agents enabled it by continuing to send young actresses for "meetings" alone with him. Women who spoke up faced the very real threats of never working again and/or being financially ruined by lawsuits against them on his behalf.
"His alleged behavior became something of a Hollywood open secret: When the comedian Seth MacFarlane announced Oscar nominees in 2013, he joked, “Congratulations, you five ladies no longer have to pretend to be attracted to Harvey Weinstein.” The audience laughed."
I'm surprised because I thought Gwyneth would have been totally off limits based on who her parents were. Maybe he didn't choose his victims carefully. Maybe they were all just so ashamed and intimidated by the interactions they didnt speak about them.
This right here says they ALL knew something was up. Men enabled it by ignoring it. Agents enabled it by continuing to send young actresses for "meetings" alone with him. Women who spoke up faced the very real threats of never working again and/or being financially ruined by lawsuits against them on his behalf.
"His alleged behavior became something of a Hollywood open secret: When the comedian Seth MacFarlane announced Oscar nominees in 2013, he joked, “Congratulations, you five ladies no longer have to pretend to be attracted to Harvey Weinstein.” The audience laughed."
There was also a mention in 30 Rock about the character having to sleep with HW.
Post by CheeringCharm on Oct 10, 2017 13:10:25 GMT -5
And the sad thing is, it's only coming out now because he's hasn't been making as much money as in the past and thus isn't as powerful as he used to be. If he could still make or break a movie's chance at an Oscar, no one would be talking about this openly.
The fact that society is changing and men like Cosby, Ailes, and O'Reilly are being named and shamed helps. But look at Trump. Elected to the oval office despite harassment allegations and being caught on tape saying he can grab any pussy he wants because he's a star. It's sick. It's demoralizing. If Weinstein still had the golden touch, there wouldn't be any articles exposing him.