I liked the movie It felt kinda like two movies Like they crammed two movies together, you know? The A plot was fucking fantastic (I’ll go into that more) and the B plot was lame o Loved the whole theme of there is no obvious good/no obvious evil. No clear right and wrong type of stuff. That’s the theme I thought this trilogy would have.
A plot thoughts I LOVED the connection between Rey and Kylo. Those moments were the best, and honestly the most human connection I’ve felt in the new trilogy so far. I liked the burning of the Jedi stuff and the acknowledgment that it had become a bloated institution that couldn’t see the forest for the trees. I liked Luke explaining the force to Rey. Felt like a nice reset after the medicloreon debacle WTF to Luke though. I can kinda see him thinking for a minute about killing Ben. Luke has always has some dark in him, he knows his bloodline is powerful and can lean dark. But my WTF is to him straight up lying about it to Rey. Man, Luke. Man. Shady mcShadster over here. Snokes overarching goal seemed pretty murky. But whatever. He was boring and now he’s gone and that scene was overall just the tits. Poor lonely Kylo
B plot thoughts WHY? No seriously. What??? Finn go do this thing. Now do this other thing. Hell, how about another thing? And none of this will really give you much of a character arc. I love fin but this wasted his time so hard. Oh hey, it’s phasma! Ok, bye, phasma ! Poe had a good arc, but Jesus it was boring and frustrating to watch. Chewie and Leia had jack all to do. Oh no, kids! NO KIDS IN SW MOVIES THEY ARE ALWAYS TERRIBLE
Open questions Do we believe Kylo about Rey’s parents? I hope it’s true, but don’t we see her getting rescued from somewhere in force awakens? And he seems to know about her in that movie (“what girl?”). I think he lies. Is rey and Finns romance storyline dunzo? I think it is. They barely acknowledged each other and it seems like he’s moved on. Is kylo dooooomed now? I thought after force awakens that rey was going to become something entirely new. Not a Jedi, and not a sith, but something with true balance. After this one, I’m not so sure. Seems like she’s positioned as Jedi 2.0, and Kylo is now stuck in Sith mode as he can’t get over his past. I think he’s doomed but I’m still rooting for him. Kylo and Finn are still my faves. I liked Rey better in this movie, as I feel like her scenes with Kylo humanized her. I worry she may be dull again by the next movie, now that she’s firmly in camp light side.
Open questions Do we believe Kylo about Rey’s parents? I hope it’s true, but don’t we see her getting rescued from somewhere in force awakens? And he seems to know about her in that movie (“what girl?”). I think he lies. Is rey and Finns romance storyline dunzo? I think it is. They barely acknowledged each other and it seems like he’s moved on. Is kylo dooooomed now? I thought after force awakens that rey was going to become something entirely new. Not a Jedi, and not a sith, but something with true balance. After this one, I’m not so sure. Seems like she’s positioned as Jedi 2.0, and Kylo is now stuck in Sith mode as he can’t get over his past. I think he’s doomed but I’m still rooting for him. Kylo and Finn are still my faves. I liked Rey better in this movie, as I feel like her scenes with Kylo humanized her. I worry she may be dull again by the next movie, now that she’s firmly in camp light side.
Do we believe Kylo about Rey’s parents? Yes. He really has no reason to lie to her about them and Luke had no clue who she was. The flashback scenes in TFA do not show Rey actually being rescued. The Knights of Ren scene does not involve Rey; the majority of the scenes that she sees are someone else's memories/experiences. The Rey scene is her being handed off to Unkar Plott.
For the love of all things holy people have got to stop trying to make FinnRey happen. Finn and Rose can go off and make babies.
Kylo is not doomed. He is not a blood thirsty, pissant, tyrant like Hux. And he had the chance to kill Leia and he didn't. Ben is still in there and there is still hope for him. His anger/rage/hatred towards Luke is somewhat justified considering that Ben was still a child/teenager when everything went down at the temple and who wouldn't freak the eff out if they woke up and someone was standing over them wielding a lightsaber who had thoughts of killing them. Kylo does seem a bit hell bent on destroying the things that have hurt him- Han pretty much was an absent father, Luke had thoughts of killing him, and Snoke who had been manipulating him for most of his life.
Post by alleinesein on Dec 15, 2017 6:53:41 GMT -5
My random thoughts and questions-
1. How in hell are they going to eliminate Leia from Episode 9? Something catastrophic is going to have to happen b/c right now she is alive and well at the end of Episode 8.
2. Leia finally using the force to save herself. YAY!
3. Is it wrong that I kinda wanna know what roasted Porg tastes like??
4. Kylo force choking Hux...I just want to watch this on replay. I hate Hux and that little shit deserved that. I really hope Kylo straight up kills him in Episode 9.
5. YODA!! Was not expecting that at all.
6. So is Poe going to be the new leader of the Resistance? Holdo is dead, Ackbar is dead, Leia is going to die and there really isn't anyone left.
7. Holdo's death scene- the entire theater was absolutely silent. We all just sat there in awe.
8. I need a pet Porg!
9. Anyone else notice the change in tone in Kylos voice (not counting the force bond moments)? It was there in TFA but was more apparent in TLJ. Its like when he is channeling Kylo he has the weird, slightly muffled voice and when he is channeling Ben he speaks in a normal voice.
10. Shirtless Kylo...I can die happy now. My disney prayers have been answered. I had a running joke with my friends that after being tortured with that frozen abomination that disney owed me and as payment I wanted a half naked Kylo in TLJ. I got my wish!
11. Did anyone say "I have a bad feeling about this"? I did not notice it in either showing that I saw and I was actively listening for it the second time.
12. The Rey scene in the cave was just odd. I get that it is more of a flashback because she is telling Ben about it but it is just strange and I am trying to figure out what it is supposed to mean.
I don’t think anyone said “I have a bad feeling about this”. Unless it was during the dorky animal chase that I’m actively trying to forget.
Cave scene felt a little off to me too. That slip into first person narration while it was happening didn’t feel right. It made sense that it became a narrated flashback, but it didn’t fit with the rest of the way Star Wars has told us stories in the past.
I hope you’re right about Rey’s parents. I am really sick of everyone just coming from this one group of special people.
I also hope you are right about Kylo, but... I wonder where the next movie can/will go. Kylo is now our only remaining villain. So if his redemption is coming, seems like it would need to be towards the third act of the next movie, or we will be watching a movie without an antagonist. And a third act redemption arc...feels like I’ve seen that story before. I hope they surprise and delight me and pull off the whole balance thing, redeem Kylo, and still make an entertaining film.
We saw it on Wednesday afternoon, so I've had some time to think about it.
It's probably simpler if I just c&p my whole brain dump from the G&G board post:
Thought #1 - In the same way that The Force Awakens was disconcertingly channeling A New Hope, I felt that the first part of the film was heavy-handed on the Empire Strikes Back aspects. The rebels' evacuation reminded me of the scenes on Hoth. The whole hermit Jedi master refusing to train the scrappy upstart was practically a full-on recreation of Dagobah (complete with Force cave! Seriously?!). And then there was the introduction of a romance element. The second half of the film felt much more original.
Thought #2 - OMG I could not stand the scene with Leia in open space! First, it felt really bizarre and out-of-character. Leia has inklings of Force ability, but that seemed like a pretty extreme move! Second, it looked sooooo cheesy! When she starts to wake up, I was sitting there thinking, "No... They're not really going to do this, are they? OMG, they are!" And then when she starts flying through space in a full-on Superman pose, it was just embarrassing. I hated that scene. Not as much as Jar Jar. Maybe about as much as midichlorians. Third, the physics of the whole thing have been messing with my head. Even with Force manipulation, how did she suddenly accelerate towards the ship in a vacuum? How did she create thrust? ...In mulling this over just now, I've decided that since the Force is the energy that binds all things together, maybe instead of creating thrust to push herself towards the ship, she manipulated the Force to draw herself and the ship closer. Still, that seems like quite a feat for an untrained person who's never shown particularly strong talent for using the Force.
Speaking of physics, I also got kind of flustered with the bombers "dropping" bombs in open space. I'm now going to assume that this was achieved through some kind of polarized magnetics. (I think physics was on my mind, because before the show the cinema had a whole space battle projected onto its domed ceiling with TIE fighters, X-wings, the Falcon, and a few star destroyers. Seeing it overhead in 360° made me realize that all the Star Wars ships remain in a fixed "upright" orientation in relation to the planets below, and this got me thinking about how Ender's Game explains how moving effectively in 3D space means you need to stop thinking of "down" as a fixed direction. I digress.)
Thought #3 - Related to thought #2, but how many times can they play the "dead, not-dead" schtick in one film?! It felt like a clumsy attempt to create emotions, but by the end, I was just getting bored with it. And it cheapened Luke's ending for me. "He's dead!" *feels* "No, wait, he's not dead!" *actual surprise* "Oh, wait... No, he's dead again." *whatever*
Thought #4 - Porgs aren't that bad. (Embarrassing confession: I actually think they're kind of cute and sort of want one. It probably has something to do with the fact that I adore calico cats.)
Thought #5 - Some of the visuals in this film are stunning. I didn't really like the new throne room set, but the fight scene with all the guards was quite striking, and the sparseness of the background was a big part of that. And the white and red salt planet was a bit gimmicky but I'm willing to give them a pass, because the result was absolutely beautiful.
Thought #6 - It felt weird to me to have two different burgeoning romances in the same film. I would have liked the Rose-Finn thing to be more platonic. Men and women can be close friends without being siblings or sweethearts. I'd like to believe she meant "love" in a general sense, but if so, I think it could have been played out in a more obviously platonic way. Especially since I think Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver did a great job of creating a tense chemistry between them. Even more impressive for not being in the same scene together. (Another embarrassing confession: I dig the Rey-Ben love-hate relationship. I never understood why people were all swoony over Adam Driver in The Force Awakens, but I could understand it after this.)
Thought #7 - I wish Poe had died in an epic ball of failure. So much undermining of strong and intelligent women. I hope some of the male viewers learned something from the fact that he royally fucked everything up by not trusting the female leadership, but since he got to waltz out of the whole thing in an intact ball of machismo, I suspect they did not.
Thought #8 - If you can destroy a ship by running another ship through it at light-speed, why hasn't anyone done it before? Seems like the rebels could have just sacrificed a ship to a kamikaze run against the Death Star, considering how many more ships and people they lost in the process. Was everyone in the galaxy taught that this would lead to the end of the world a la Ghostbusters' "Don't cross the streams?" Maybe everyone wasn't acting shocked because they were surprised by the idea; maybe they legit thought that the universe was about to end! Haha!
Thought #8 - A hint of shoulder skin is apparently "in" this season in a galaxy far, far away.
I didn’t *hate* the Leia space blowout. My first reaction was to be pissed. I thought they went Game of Thrones on us or something and unceremoniously killed a major character and I was thinking THAT IS NOT HOW STAR WARS HANDLES DEATHS OF MAJOR CHARACTERS. Then when she did her thing, my thought was, cool, some exploration of Leia’s force powers. But also, oh dear. This looks cheesy. I think I would have liked it better if she had used her force power to stay shielded from the effects of the vacuum of space, and then they come scoop her up and she’s in a healing trance. That would have been less visually silly. But this overall isn’t a big deal for me. It’s a space adventure film, and magic exists in this universe, so meh.
Holdo’s dress is the ugliest effin dress in the galaxy. It made her look like a poop colored bird. I was very into the Rey Kylo connection. Romantic or not. They are both so lonely! Loved it!
I do like how the whole Finn/Poe sneaking onto the ship arc did nothing to help any characters escape and only caused more deaths (as the codebreaker alerted them to the escaping small ships). So it was very obviously, “the women have their shit together and the men are fucking it all up.”
Yes, so many people died in this movie because of Poe being a jackass. But I think that was his arc. That’s why he called for the retreat at the end. He realized that his heroics were just getting everyone killed and fucking up logical plans.
Also I was sad that dreadnaught was destroyed because that was a fucking awesome ship. I want one.
Another thought - I never know what to call KyloRenBen. It feels weird calling him Ben even when he's being Ben-ish. And "Kylo Ren" is awkward as fuck. But can it be shortened to just Kylo? Or is Kylo some kind of title like "Darth"? Or is it all one name, and Kylo Ren would force choke you for shortening it, being all, "My name is Kylo Ren. Not Kylo. Kylo Ren! Get it right!!!"
I just had a 10 minute argument with a student who called Luke's death a copout. He was arguing that Luke should have died fighting. My point was that he did. It ended with me saying I have failed as a literature teacher if he can't see that he metaphorically died and that for Luke to go out swinging a lightsaber would have been against every piece of his character.
Other than that, I need to process more. I still think Rey is part of the family. Kylo Ren needs her to believe she's not so that she will think she's alone and join him. Plus, he's a bad guy, do we really trust him? OR, the writing is going for the "see, anyone can be a hero, even people who have no family, because family is what you make it" blah blah, which to me is NOT the purpose of this series. Going away from that to make some kind of other point *would* seem like a copout to me. But I love Star Wars for the story; I loved episodes 1-3 because they began the story. I could not care less about the science of it or all the other details. I want a good story and some cool shit to look at while the story is being told.
Also, the whole trip to the casino was unnecessary and wasteful. I get it: it gave Rose some background, but it was dumb. As was Benicio del Toro - unless he turns up in Ep. 9, which I kinda hope he doesn't. The whole thing was distracting.
Post by twilightmv on Dec 15, 2017 10:58:43 GMT -5
Yeah, agree with you on the casino stuff. What a waste of Finn. They gave him so much to do, but none of it was interesting. Even watching the trailer, my takeaway was “ugh, they are going to have Finn go on some long, drawn out mcguffin sequence and I will not want to watch it”. I was right!
Per my first post, I don’t 100% believe Kylo about Rey’s parents (would he even know if they were just junk collectors who dumped her? How would he know that? Public records?). But I hope she’s not related. I definitely prefer it if she is “no one”. I have to watch TFA again though. Doesn’t Han seem to know her or something? I remember there being more hints. But Luke clearly doesn’t have a fucking clue who she is.
And I don’t think Kylo is just a bad guy who would necessarily just fuck with her because he’s “bad”, but maybe he would shield that info from her because he thinks the truth will hold her back or something. I could see that.
I’m kind of hoping that that was the truth, Rey’s parents are never mentioned again, and I will watch this trilogy 5 years from now and think “hey, remember when I wasted all that time fretting over Rey’s parentage and it wasn’t even a thing?” That is my hope.
My kid thinks Kylo and Rey are separated twins, a la Luke and Leia, and that they were separated to protect them. I don't buy it, but I like the thought.
Post by meshaliuknits on Dec 15, 2017 12:02:28 GMT -5
I loved it. I no small part because I WAS RIGHT. And I LOVE being right. lol
I loved Leia force pulling herself back onto the ship. I loved Paige doing her duty until the end. I adore the Tico sisters. I loved Rey's training sequence, I think it helps silence the Mary Sue bitches that I've seen/heard. She's good with melee weapons. Live with it and maybe read a book. Yoda popping up and knocking Luke on the head may have made my life. Luke went out like a G too, and I love him for it. Snoke getting got when/how he did was pretty great, props to Kylo for that masterful bit of misdirection. Very Dr Strange of him.
I was a bit disappointed that Canto Bight was such a small piece, there were SO MANY aliens there that I wanted a better look at, but I do love that the fathier's did make an appearance. Phasma continues to get the short end of the narrative. Phasma is BADASS. She is. Don't get between homegirl and what she wants, trust. That part when her helmet tore and you could see part of her face was SO SIGNIFICANT but you'd have to read the book to know it and it makes me sad. I really hope that Mr Don't Join and Snoke get books because I HAVE QUESTIONS. Also, HTF did DJ even know to decloak the escape vessels?
Rey and Finn can hook up, Finn Rose can hook up, Finn and Poe can hook up. I don't care one way or another, I just don't want Reylo to be a thing.
I continue to not really care for Emo Vader and General Weasley.
My kid thinks Kylo and Rey are separated twins, a la Luke and Leia, and that they were separated to protect them. I don't buy it, but I like the thought.
I've seen this floated, but I dislike the idea. Because it makes Han and Leia TERRIBLE parents. You don't just drop a kid off in the middle of nowhere with no one reliable to watch them. When Luke and Leia were split up, they were both put in homes. Rey was sold to a cruel Crolute who fancies himself the heir to a Hut. That's the sort of thing awful people do and while Han and Leia may not have been *awesome* parents, they weren't awful.
My kid thinks Kylo and Rey are separated twins, a la Luke and Leia, and that they were separated to protect them. I don't buy it, but I like the thought.
I've seen this floated, but I dislike the idea. Because it makes Han and Leia TERRIBLE parents. You don't just drop a kid off in the middle of nowhere with no one reliable to watch them. When Luke and Leia were split up, they were both put in homes. Rey was sold to a cruel Crolute who fancies himself the heir to a Hut. That's the sort of thing awful people do and while Han and Leia may not have been *awesome* parents, they weren't awful.
That's a good point. Buuuuut....what if Leia didn't know? I mean, it seems like Han knew her, right? What if it was a master Jedi plot of some kind?
Of course, it's still my prediction that Rey is going to go to the dark side and Kylo will be redeemed.
And I don’t think Kylo is just a bad guy who would necessarily just fuck with her because he’s “bad”, but maybe he would shield that info from her because he thinks the truth will hold her back or something. I could see that.
I’m kind of hoping that that was the truth, Rey’s parents are never mentioned again, and I will watch this trilogy 5 years from now and think “hey, remember when I wasted all that time fretting over Rey’s parentage and it wasn’t even a thing?” That is my hope.
No, I don't think so. He liked her because she appreciated the Falcon and was good with ships. It struck me as a common interest bond more than anything. He's struck up mentor/mentee relationships with other people over the same thing. There was the one scene after Han died that Leia walked right past Chewy to hug Rey which was weird, but I think it was a force thing. I haven't read the novelization of TFA, but I'm told it was better explained there.
I don't think Kylo lied. I think Rey knew what her parents were and did bury it like he suggested. I think he plucked the info from her head and then looked the rest up.
Post by twilightmv on Dec 15, 2017 12:45:21 GMT -5
Honestly, I’m glad that so much was wrapped up in this one and they didn’t open up too many more “mysteries”. I want to enjoy my space adventure film, and get to know the characters, without constantly having to theorize on WTF is happening. Kudos to The Last Jedi for keeping the story telling tight and honest.
Post by twilightmv on Dec 15, 2017 12:47:06 GMT -5
And I know I said it in my first post, but double kudos for acknowledging two failures of the prequels and turning them into plot in this trilogy- -how shitty the Jedi/Jedi counsel were in the prequels -how shitty they explained the force in the prequels
I've seen this floated, but I dislike the idea. Because it makes Han and Leia TERRIBLE parents. You don't just drop a kid off in the middle of nowhere with no one reliable to watch them. When Luke and Leia were split up, they were both put in homes. Rey was sold to a cruel Crolute who fancies himself the heir to a Hut. That's the sort of thing awful people do and while Han and Leia may not have been *awesome* parents, they weren't awful.
That's a good point. Buuuuut....what if Leia didn't know? I mean, it seems like Han knew her, right? What if it was a master Jedi plot of some kind?
Of course, it's still my prediction that Rey is going to go to the dark side and Kylo will be redeemed.
She was the one pregnant, though. She'd have known there were two babies in there.
And I know I said it in my first post, but double kudos for acknowledging two failures of the prequels and turning them into plot in this trilogy- -how shitty the Jedi/Jedi counsel were in the prequels -how shitty they explained the force in the prequels
I feel whole again on these two topics, haha
I felt pretty good on this point after the Clone Wars cartoons. Yoda knew they lost their way. I'm 90% sure he knew Order 66 would happen and just let the force handle this.
Also, the Star Wars cartoons are great. Really great. Some of my favoritest characters come from those cartoons.
4. Kylo force choking Hux...I just want to watch this on replay. I hate Hux and that little shit deserved that. I really hope Kylo straight up kills him in Episode 9.
That's a good point. Buuuuut....what if Leia didn't know? I mean, it seems like Han knew her, right? What if it was a master Jedi plot of some kind?
Of course, it's still my prediction that Rey is going to go to the dark side and Kylo will be redeemed.
She was the one pregnant, though. She'd have known there were two babies in there.
Amidala didn't know. eta: I guess she wasn't of the Force or whatever. Still, is it beyond a possibility? I'm just sayin I need another "Luke, I am your father" moment in this set.
Post by twilightmv on Dec 15, 2017 13:18:39 GMT -5
I’m not sure why Kylo is keeping Hux around. Doesn’t really jive with me, especially since Kylo basically immediately took over the army stuff. I guess they need him to sneer for one more film.
I don’t hate Hux. I like a good imperial sneer.
Oh, although that does remind me of disliking that whole “we have them on a string” reveal. Why did they have to make that into a mystery? I thought it was going to be that they were secretly tracking a person, or there was a spy. It’s just ship stuff!! No need to be mysterious about that. It doesn’t make it more interesting, it’s still pretty boring.