SW: The Last Jedi SPOILERS/chat

[twilightmv]

Dec 15, 2017 13:15:43 GMT -5 taratru said:

Dec 15, 2017 13:00:29 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

She was the one pregnant, though. She'd have known there were two babies in there.

Amidala didn't know. 
 eta: I guess she wasn't of the Force or whatever.  Still, is it beyond a possibility?  I'm just sayin I need another "Luke, I am your father" moment in this set.  

Come on. This is bananas. She would know what came out of her vagina/uterus. And Han would be a pretty big monster to hide a baby from Leia. And why would they hide?? There was no more big bad in the universe that would be chasing the babies. They didn’t hide Ben. Rey is not a Skywalker. Gavel!

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 15, 2017 13:15:43 GMT -5 taratru said:

Dec 15, 2017 13:00:29 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

She was the one pregnant, though. She'd have known there were two babies in there.

Amidala didn't know. 
 eta: I guess she wasn't of the Force or whatever.  Still, is it beyond a possibility?  I'm just sayin I need another "Luke, I am your father" moment in this set.  

Amidala couldn't use the force and apparently they don't have ultrasounds in a galaxy far, far away. Spaceships, sure, but ultrasounds not so much. And she died after giving birth so she never saw those babies.

Leia survived her birth, so she did/would have seen the product(s) of it. Also, Leia interacted with Kylo in utero via the force in the Bloodlines novel. Like she knew he was a boy (despite noted lack of ultrasounds) Rey was definitely not in there. Not unless she was hiding behind her placenta and placentas are to the force what lead is to Superman's x-ray vision. lol

[taratru]

Dec 15, 2017 13:20:18 GMT -5 twilightmv said:

Dec 15, 2017 13:15:43 GMT -5 taratru said:

Amidala didn't know. 
 eta: I guess she wasn't of the Force or whatever.  Still, is it beyond a possibility?  I'm just sayin I need another "Luke, I am your father" moment in this set.  

Come on. This is bananas. She would know what came out of her vagina/uterus. And Han would be a pretty big monster to hide a baby from Leia. And why would they hide?? There was no more big bad in the universe that would be chasing the babies. They didn’t hide Ben. Rey is not a Skywalker. Gavel!

OHHHHHHHH....right.  Because this series doesn't pull ridiculous shit out allllllll the time.  Like how would Darth Vader, master of all, not know HE was the father of twins?  I don't know, maybe she gave birth completely knocked out.  The medical world in these movies isn't exactly...realistic.  

Also, I'd like to say again that I am not as into this stuff as other people. I don't CARE if it's realistic or not, because it's, you know, not.  It's science fiction. I like epic stories to have fun twists and not be predictable, so I'm trying to guess ways it could be.  Let me be in my ridiculousness. 

[twilightmv]

Amidala did meet and name the babies but was not in on the hair-brained baby hiding scheme, as she died before she had the chance to say “....what? You’re hiding the boy on anakin’s home planet and letting him keep the name Skywalker and telling him his father was named Anakin Skywalker? Cool plan, assholes”

[taratru]

Dec 15, 2017 13:27:47 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Dec 15, 2017 13:15:43 GMT -5 taratru said:

Amidala didn't know. 
 eta: I guess she wasn't of the Force or whatever.  Still, is it beyond a possibility?  I'm just sayin I need another "Luke, I am your father" moment in this set.  

Amidala couldn't use the force and apparently they don't have ultrasounds in a galaxy far, far away. Spaceships, sure, but ultrasounds not so much. And she died after giving birth so she never saw those babies.

Leia survived her birth, so she did/would have seen the product(s) of it. Also, Leia interacted with Kylo in utero via the force in the Bloodlines novel. Like she knew he was a boy (despite noted lack of ultrasounds) Rey was definitely not in there. Not unless she was hiding behind her placenta and placentas are to the force what lead is to Superman's x-ray vision. lol

Staaaaahp.  My students are looking at me because I'm laughing so hard right now. 

I haven't read, so I don't know all that other stuff. 

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 15, 2017 13:32:30 GMT -5 taratru said:

Dec 15, 2017 13:27:47 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Amidala couldn't use the force and apparently they don't have ultrasounds in a galaxy far, far away. Spaceships, sure, but ultrasounds not so much. And she died after giving birth so she never saw those babies.

Leia survived her birth, so she did/would have seen the product(s) of it. Also, Leia interacted with Kylo in utero via the force in the Bloodlines novel. Like she knew he was a boy (despite noted lack of ultrasounds) Rey was definitely not in there. Not unless she was hiding behind her placenta and placentas are to the force what lead is to Superman's x-ray vision. lol

Staaaaahp.  My students are looking at me because I'm laughing so hard right now. 

I haven't read, so I don't know all that other stuff. 

Most people haven't, but I have a deep love of Star Wars and Star Trek so I am in to ALL THE THINGS.

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 15, 2017 13:31:50 GMT -5 twilightmv said:

Amidala did meet and name the babies but was not in on the hair-brained baby hiding scheme, as she died before she had the chance to say “....what? You’re hiding the boy on anakin’s home planet and letting him keep the name Skywalker and telling him his father was named Anakin Skywalker? Cool plan, assholes”

Anakin hates sand! He certainly was never going back to Tatooine. It was a great plan! lol

[twilightmv]

Food for thought. I like Joanna Robinson from her GOT and Westworld podcasts:
www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex/amp

[thebulldog]

and also ---i love the moment where Luke just tosses the light saber -- like that was the big cliffhanger end of the last movie - we are all waiting for the moment and then boom, HA HA.

[twilightmv]

Another one:
www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-run-time-too-long-cut-canto-bight/amp

I disagree with her somewhat here. I definitely wanted more Finn. He’s my second favorite. But why couldn’t they give him an actual character arc, vs having him just chasing a mcguffin? When we first meet Finn, he’s rocked out of his stormtrooper brain washing when he sees a fellow stormtrooper die. I had hoped this was going to be a conflict for him. It didn’t pan out in TFA, which was disappointing but I gave a pass to since there was so much going on. But it seems like such an easy way to add drama to this movie and delve more into his character. And it totally fits the theme of blurry lines between good and evil. Missed opportunity for me.

[alleinesein]

Rey and Kylo are not twins. That theory needs to die. They arent even the same age.

ETA:
Kylo- born in 5 ABY (1 year after the Battle of Endor)

Rey- born in 15 ABY (11 years after the Battle of Endor)

There is a 10 year age gap between them.  

[alleinesein]

Dec 15, 2017 12:02:28 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Also, HTF did DJ even know to decloak the escape vessels?

I'm taking a wild guess and I am going to say that he overheard the communications between Finn and Poe.

[alleinesein]

Dec 15, 2017 13:18:39 GMT -5 twilightmv said:

I’m not sure why Kylo is keeping Hux around. Doesn’t really jive with me, especially since Kylo basically immediately took over the army stuff. I guess they need him to sneer for one more film.

I don’t hate Hux. I like a good imperial sneer.

Oh, although that does remind me of disliking that whole “we have them on a string” reveal. Why did they have to make that into a mystery? I thought it was going to be that they were secretly tracking a person, or there was a spy. It’s just ship stuff!! No need to be mysterious about that. It doesn’t make it more interesting, it’s still pretty boring.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hux does something in episode 9 to make Kylo turn against the First Order.  I just want to watch Kylo force choke the life out of that weasel.  I loathe Hux.

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 16, 2017 0:46:00 GMT -5 alleinesein said:

Dec 15, 2017 12:02:28 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Also, HTF did DJ even know to decloak the escape vessels?

I'm taking a wild guess and I am going to say that he overheard the communications between Finn and Poe.

I didn't think anyone said anything about them being cloaked until Leia had shot & dragged Poe onto the transport after they got sold out.

Imma have to watch it again. This bothered me like when Batman & Superman knew who each other were without doing anything.

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 16, 2017 1:59:34 GMT -5 alleinesein said:

Dec 15, 2017 13:18:39 GMT -5 twilightmv said:

I’m not sure why Kylo is keeping Hux around. Doesn’t really jive with me, especially since Kylo basically immediately took over the army stuff. I guess they need him to sneer for one more film.

I don’t hate Hux. I like a good imperial sneer.

Oh, although that does remind me of disliking that whole “we have them on a string” reveal. Why did they have to make that into a mystery? I thought it was going to be that they were secretly tracking a person, or there was a spy. It’s just ship stuff!! No need to be mysterious about that. It doesn’t make it more interesting, it’s still pretty boring.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hux does something in episode 9 to make Kylo turn against the First Order.  I just want to watch Kylo force choke the life out of that weasel.  I loathe Hux.

Hux is a terribe being. He's totally gonna get himself choked out. And he's gonna deserve it.

[twilightmv]

Dec 16, 2017 0:46:00 GMT -5 alleinesein said:

Dec 15, 2017 12:02:28 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Also, HTF did DJ even know to decloak the escape vessels?

I'm taking a wild guess and I am going to say that he overheard the communications between Finn and Poe.

Yes, I think Poe was starting to explain the plan over the comms just prior to Finn’s capture. DDT’s character was right there fiddling with the control panel.

[twilightmv]

So my husband had an idea and I kind of like it. I was whining that Kylo is the only villain left, so redemption seems unlikely from a movie structure standpoint. DH was also asking about Snoke, and if we ever find out who he was. So I said, no, I guess it doesn’t matter. Maybe it was Darth Plageous and palpatine didn’t actually kill him because hell, his power is returning from the dead.
So DH said, well, maybe that’s your third movie villain. Maybe Snoke will come back and reveal he was Plageous. Would open up the door to another big bad aside from Kylo.
Thoughts? I kinda like it.

[nsl]

I saw it yesterday morning and am headed back with the family in a few hours, so my thoughts may change after a repeat viewing, but I'm really disappointed that we didn't learn anything substantial about Snoke. He's obviously extremely powerful, and went through some serious shit given his face, and I felt like that deserved at least some exploration. I mean, cut five minutes from the endless Canto Bight scenes to do a flashback or some exposition before you chop him in half. Darth Maul came back (in the cartoons) from a similar injury, but the amount of screentime that was devoted to his super dead-looking face made me think that Johnson really, REALLY wants Snoke to stay canonically dead.

Re: no other villain, though, there's always Hux to consider. He's whiny and awful, but he's totally devoted to the First Order, and hates Kylo Ren. Some kind of a power struggle between them for control over the First Order would be totally appropriate for Episode IX.

And what about the half dozen Jedi apprentices who disappeared with Kylo when he destroyed the Jedi training temple? I didn't imagine Luke saying that, right? What happened to them?

[twilightmv]

Dec 16, 2017 13:19:51 GMT -5 nsl said:

I saw it yesterday morning and am headed back with the family in a few hours, so my thoughts may change after a repeat viewing, but I'm really disappointed that we didn't learn anything substantial about Snoke. He's obviously extremely powerful, and went through some serious shit given his face, and I felt like that deserved at least some exploration. I mean, cut five minutes from the endless Canto Bight scenes to do a flashback or some exposition before you chop him in half. Darth Maul came back (in the cartoons) from a similar injury, but the amount of screentime that was devoted to his super dead-looking face made me think that Johnson really, REALLY wants Snoke to stay canonically dead.

Re: no other villain, though, there's always Hux to consider. He's whiny and awful, but he's totally devoted to the First Order, and hates Kylo Ren. Some kind of a power struggle between them for control over the First Order would be totally appropriate for Episode IX.

And what about the half dozen Jedi apprentices who disappeared with Kylo when he destroyed the Jedi training temple? I didn't imagine Luke saying that, right? What happened to them?

Read my post just prior to yours about Snoke.
I don’t think Hux is prime super villain material. They spent his whole film compromising his power and dignity. If they want us to be scared of him, they should have laid groundwork.

[alleinesein]

Dec 16, 2017 13:19:51 GMT -5 nsl said:

I saw it yesterday morning and am headed back with the family in a few hours, so my thoughts may change after a repeat viewing, but I'm really disappointed that we didn't learn anything substantial about Snoke. He's obviously extremely powerful, and went through some serious shit given his face, and I felt like that deserved at least some exploration. I mean, cut five minutes from the endless Canto Bight scenes to do a flashback or some exposition before you chop him in half. Darth Maul came back (in the cartoons) from a similar injury, but the amount of screentime that was devoted to his super dead-looking face made me think that Johnson really, REALLY wants Snoke to stay canonically dead.

Re: no other villain, though, there's always Hux to consider. He's whiny and awful, but he's totally devoted to the First Order, and hates Kylo Ren. Some kind of a power struggle between them for control over the First Order would be totally appropriate for Episode IX.

And what about the half dozen Jedi apprentices who disappeared with Kylo when he destroyed the Jedi training temple? I didn't imagine Luke saying that, right? What happened to them?

Luke said it. My theory is that they became the knights of ren.

[secretlyevil]

I laughed, I cried, I got mad, I was on the edge of my seat...it was so good! I’m actually excited to see it again.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Dec 16, 2017 17:10:37 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

I laughed, I cried, I got mad, I was on the edge of my seat...it was so good! I’m actually excited to see it again.

I'm glad to hear this from someone. I left thinking I wasn't in as good of an emotional place as I thought I was considering it made me cry a couple of times.

[NitaX]

Dec 15, 2017 6:53:41 GMT -5 alleinesein said:

My random thoughts and questions-

1. How in hell are they going to eliminate Leia from Episode 9? Something catastrophic is going to have to happen b/c right now she is alive and well at the end of Episode 8.

2. Leia finally using the force to save herself. YAY!

3. Is it wrong that I kinda wanna know what roasted Porg tastes like??

4. Kylo force choking Hux...I just want to watch this on replay. I hate Hux and that little shit deserved that. I really hope Kylo straight up kills him in Episode 9.

5. YODA!! Was not expecting that at all.

6. So is Poe going to be the new leader of the Resistance? Holdo is dead, Ackbar is dead, Leia is going to die and there really isn't anyone left.

7. Holdo's death scene- the entire theater was absolutely silent. We all just sat there in awe.

8. I need a pet Porg!

9. Anyone else notice the change in tone in Kylos voice (not counting the force bond moments)? It was there in TFA but was more apparent in TLJ. Its like when he is channeling Kylo he has the weird, slightly muffled voice and when he is channeling Ben he speaks in a normal voice.

10. Shirtless Kylo...I can die happy now. My disney prayers have been answered. I had a running joke with my friends that after being tortured with that frozen abomination that disney owed me and as payment I wanted a half naked Kylo in TLJ. I got my wish!

11. Did anyone say "I have a bad feeling about this"? I did not notice it in either showing that I saw and I was actively listening for it the second time.

12. The Rey scene in the cave was just odd. I get that it is more of a flashback because she is telling Ben about it but it is just strange and I am trying to figure out what it is supposed to mean.

So, shirtless Ren is not cute. Sorry. No muscle definition, just a barrel chest. No thanks.

[firedancer10288]

Dec 15, 2017 6:53:41 GMT -5 alleinesein said:

11. Did anyone say "I have a bad feeling about this"? I did not notice it in either showing that I saw and I was actively listening for it the second time.

I said the same thing leaving the theater, so I looked it up. BB8 "says" it in the opting sequence.

[Queen Mamadala]

I have so many thoughts. H and I watched a few of our favorite Youtube reviewers and talked for a couple hours. In short, I loved it so much. On par with Empire for me, if not better for its complexity and layers.

1. The humor was great.
2. The tension in the beginning had me on the edge of my seat. The space battle scenes were phenomenal. Fantastic work, Rian & team.
3. Luke/Mark Hamill is at his best. Raw, weathered damaged by his failures.
4. I'm digging the Reylo connection, though I'm not sure about a love interest-y element. I don't want it to take away from her overall journey and further character development and evolution.
5. I love where they took Kylo. There are many layers and he's obviously carrying around a lot of hurt and pain. He seems conflicted, but his internal conflict -- anger, pain, abandonment, manipulation by those around him, created this multifaceted monster. I think it's possible he can be redeemed.

6. I got the sense that the lessons here were not just about individual failures, but the failure of the Jedi Order and its dogma. That even those with the best intentions can falter. H and I speculate the Jedi Order knew about the "unlimited powers" that can be accessed through the Force, as we see in Snoke, by tapping into our emotions, the full spectrum. I think Vader came to realize that and sought to use his raw power to shape the galaxy as he saw fit. The Jedi Order created rules and dogma that forbade Jedi from forming attachments that can facilitate a range of these human emotions. They were restricted from using other aspects of the Force for fear it would "turn" them or cause them to crave too power (it reminds me a bit of Doctor Strange with the Ancient One and her disciples. The disciples were led astray when they tapped into "forbidden magic" that led them to Dormammu, when sorcerer Kaecilius discovered the Ancient One was tapping into it for her immortality. She made decisions for the betterment of all sorcerers and the universe. She use restraint and understood balance is necessary, but others, like Kaecilius, would abuse it.) Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if other orders/users of the Force have been able to tap into its raw power that Jedi used restraint and restrictions, but at what cost? Again, what if it isn't Light vs. Dark and there are shades of grey and balance is key to all things. Just like human emotions.

7. Which leads me to the Canto Bight segment. I know many reviewers think this is the weakest part of the film. That it lags and messes with the pacing. (I agree on the pacing) And it doesn't exactly move the plot again. But I saw it as adding an important element to the overall story that there's more than Rebels vs. Empire. There are whole worlds that are far removed from the intergalactic war being waged. There are societies that deal in both sides. Rich people in the business of war, unharmed, but also guilty of subjugating others in the name of business and profit. DJ even says good guys and bad guys are just words, and Finn comes to realize the Rebels buy their weapons from the same dealers that do business with the Empire. That in war, good and bad is all relative. Obviously he believes in his mission, but it adds more layers and nuance to the effects and mechanism of war on both sides. I also think there was a major character arc for Finn if we look back to TFA where he was a deserter of the First Order who then tagged along with Rey and concerned himself mostly with saving her, not so much the Rebellion. But toward the end at the abandoned Rebel base we see him willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. His journey with Rose gave him a better understanding of what the Rebellion is and means to people, even those in far away planets untouched by war (the kids). Plus, this segment focuses on PoC characters, in which case representation matters. It's important. It may pull away from the main protagonists' narrative (and there are many fans who bitch about the Canto Bight segment because it's too SJW and PoC heavy -- they prefer the focus on the white characters -- fucking racist shitbags).

Also, this segment was one Po had part in planning, and once again, the plan failed -- going back to failure being an important lesson in growth. He undermined Vice Admiral Holdo, whose plan would have worked. Rose went along with the journey and adventure of being part of the Rebellion, and Po and Finn, while well-meaning in the intentions, made risky decisions. But those decisions led to further character arc. We see this at the end when Po is ready to fight the remaining First Order as they break through the armored fortress, but he realized that not all battles have to be won his way, with brute force and risky attacks.

8. Yoda...being yoda. Love, love, love.
9. I'm curious whether Kylo's right about Rey's parents. Was he just manipulating her to make her feel alone and abandoned like him in hopes it would persuade her to join him? I like the idea of her not coming from a prestige lineage. It rings true to the whole "the Force is in everyone and everything, not just Jedi" and since Jedi weren't supposed to have kids, that would be true, right? Force users would have to come from regular people. However, I don't think her parents were these awful drunkards like he claimed. I think he used that to manipulate her. Perhaps she essentially became an orphan due to circumstance out of their control.
10. Snoke's death. The whole scene. HOL-EE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Major goosebumps and I totally teared up. The fight scene with the Praetorian Guards was fucking fantastic. All of it, and the connection between Rey and Kylo. Wow. I really love the wide shots of lightsaber battles. They're my favorite.
11. I have to give mad props to Andy Serkis. He's phenomenal as Snoke. Very commanding presence and insane powers. He was a very intimating villain and it was interesting to get a better look at his dynamic with Kylo. We saw the manipulation and Kylo basically being used as a tool, a pawn, in a larger game. Snoke wanted Skywalker out of the picture. The remaining Jedi, and he used Kylo to lure him out. That was the point Kylo knew what he had to do. Out with the old and in with the new.

12. Hux is so weaselly and whiny, but so fun to laugh at, especially the dynamic between him and Kylo.
13. The scene with Holdo going into light speed made me feel all the feels. And the way the scene was captured. WOW.
14. Porgs...I want one.
15. <3 Leia using the Force.
16. I am bummed we don't know Snoke's backstory. He was a formidable foe and would have liked to know more about him, though H and I've been talking and supposedly he may have originated from an uncharted area of the galaxy, where the First Order was hiding out.

I may come back to discuss more.

[Queen Mamadala]

Oh, and I cried...a lot. I'm a crier.

[secretlyevil]

Dec 16, 2017 20:19:53 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Dec 15, 2017 6:53:41 GMT -5 alleinesein said:

My random thoughts and questions-

1. How in hell are they going to eliminate Leia from Episode 9? Something catastrophic is going to have to happen b/c right now she is alive and well at the end of Episode 8.

2. Leia finally using the force to save herself. YAY!

3. Is it wrong that I kinda wanna know what roasted Porg tastes like??

4. Kylo force choking Hux...I just want to watch this on replay. I hate Hux and that little shit deserved that. I really hope Kylo straight up kills him in Episode 9.

5. YODA!! Was not expecting that at all.

6. So is Poe going to be the new leader of the Resistance? Holdo is dead, Ackbar is dead, Leia is going to die and there really isn't anyone left.

7. Holdo's death scene- the entire theater was absolutely silent. We all just sat there in awe.

8. I need a pet Porg!

9. Anyone else notice the change in tone in Kylos voice (not counting the force bond moments)? It was there in TFA but was more apparent in TLJ. Its like when he is channeling Kylo he has the weird, slightly muffled voice and when he is channeling Ben he speaks in a normal voice.

10. Shirtless Kylo...I can die happy now. My disney prayers have been answered. I had a running joke with my friends that after being tortured with that frozen abomination that disney owed me and as payment I wanted a half naked Kylo in TLJ. I got my wish!

11. Did anyone say "I have a bad feeling about this"? I did not notice it in either showing that I saw and I was actively listening for it the second time.

12. The Rey scene in the cave was just odd. I get that it is more of a flashback because she is telling Ben about it but it is just strange and I am trying to figure out what it is supposed to mean.

So, shirtless Ren is not cute. Sorry. No muscle definition, just a barrel chest. No thanks.

Yeah, that did nothing for me either.

[meganew]

I really enjoyed it, HOWEVER-

-It was way too long

-It brought in a bunch of new characters that I don’t care about and it didn’t need

-I didn’t like the Rey/Kylo force FaceTime going on, I though it was pretty disjointed and the acting felt too dramatic

-not enough Chewie

-Luke brushed his shoulder off, and as I understand it Jay Z does not exist in their universe so I have no idea wtf that was about

-I think they spent way too long on side plots and didn’t use their time wisely for character development. I had a conversation with our babysitter about it when we got home last night and she brought up a great point that they spent so much time with Finn chasing around animals on some planet they just introduced with some girl they’re trying to make us emotionally invested in- but when Rey and Kylo fight, she leaves him there unconscious off screen. Why not take the time to show that? Did she struggle over whether to kill him? To take him with her? To actually escape? AND, why did Luke die on the island? What was the point of him not being there? Wouldn’t it have been much more symbolic if Kylo actually struck him down himself? Like Vader and Obiwan?

TLDR: too much time spent on shit that doesn’t matter, sloppy writing, not enough character development- but damn if I didn’t still like it somehow.

[meganew]

Dec 16, 2017 20:36:40 GMT -5 Queen Mamadala said:

I have so many thoughts. H and I watched a few of our favorite Youtube reviewers and talked for a couple hours. In short, I loved it so much. On par with Empire for me, if not better for its complexity and layers.

1. The humor was great.
2. The tension in the beginning had me on the edge of my seat. The space battle scenes were phenomenal. Fantastic work, Rian & team.
3. Luke/Mark Hamill is at his best. Raw, weathered damaged by his failures.
4. I'm digging the Reylo connection, though I'm not sure about a love interest-y element. I don't want it to take away from her overall journey and further character development and evolution.
5. I love where they took Kylo. There are many layers and he's obviously carrying around a lot of hurt and pain. He seems conflicted, but his internal conflict -- anger, pain, abandonment, manipulation by those around him, created this multifaceted monster. I think it's possible he can be redeemed.

6. I got the sense that the lessons here were not just about individual failures, but the failure of the Jedi Order and its dogma. That even those with the best intentions can falter. H and I speculate the Jedi Order knew about the "unlimited powers" that can be accessed through the Force, as we see in Snoke, by tapping into our emotions, the full spectrum. I think Vader came to realize that and sought to use his raw power to shape the galaxy as he saw fit. The Jedi Order created rules and dogma that forbade Jedi from forming attachments that can facilitate a range of these human emotions. They were restricted from using other aspects of the Force for fear it would "turn" them or cause them to crave too power (it reminds me a bit of Doctor Strange with the Ancient One and her disciples. The disciples were led astray when they tapped into "forbidden magic" that led them to Dormammu, when sorcerer Kaecilius discovered the Ancient One was tapping into it for her immortality. She made decisions for the betterment of all sorcerers and the universe. She use restraint and understood balance is necessary, but others, like Kaecilius, would abuse it.) Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if other orders/users of the Force have been able to tap into its raw power that Jedi used restraint and restrictions, but at what cost? Again, what if it isn't Light vs. Dark and there are shades of grey and balance is key to all things. Just like human emotions.

7. Which leads me to the Canto Bight segment. I know many reviewers think this is the weakest part of the film. That it lags and messes with the pacing. (I agree on the pacing) And it doesn't exactly move the plot again. But I saw it as adding an important element to the overall story that there's more than Rebels vs. Empire. There are whole worlds that are far removed from the intergalactic war being waged. There are societies that deal in both sides. Rich people in the business of war, unharmed, but also guilty of subjugating others in the name of business and profit. DJ even says good guys and bad guys are just words, and Finn comes to realize the Rebels buy their weapons from the same dealers that do business with the Empire. That in war, good and bad is all relative. Obviously he believes in his mission, but it adds more layers and nuance to the effects and mechanism of war on both sides. I also think there was a major character arc for Finn if we look back to TFA where he was a deserter of the First Order who then tagged along with Rey and concerned himself mostly with saving her, not so much the Rebellion. But toward the end at the abandoned Rebel base we see him willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. His journey with Rose gave him a better understanding of what the Rebellion is and means to people, even those in far away planets untouched by war (the kids). Plus, this segment focuses on PoC characters, in which case representation matters. It's important. It may pull away from the main protagonists' narrative (and there are many fans who bitch about the Canto Bight segment because it's too SJW and PoC heavy -- they prefer the focus on the white characters -- fucking racist shitbags).

Also, this segment was one Po had part in planning, and once again, the plan failed -- going back to failure being an important lesson in growth. He undermined Vice Admiral Holdo, whose plan would have worked. Rose went along with the journey and adventure of being part of the Rebellion, and Po and Finn, while well-meaning in the intentions, made risky decisions. But those decisions led to further character arc. We see this at the end when Po is ready to fight the remaining First Order as they break through the armored fortress, but he realized that not all battles have to be won his way, with brute force and risky attacks.

8. Yoda...being yoda. Love, love, love.
9. I'm curious whether Kylo's right about Rey's parents. Was he just manipulating her to make her feel alone and abandoned like him in hopes it would persuade her to join him? I like the idea of her not coming from a prestige lineage. It rings true to the whole "the Force is in everyone and everything, not just Jedi" and since Jedi weren't supposed to have kids, that would be true, right? Force users would have to come from regular people. However, I don't think her parents were these awful drunkards like he claimed. I think he used that to manipulate her. Perhaps she essentially became an orphan due to circumstance out of their control.
10. Snoke's death. The whole scene. HOL-EE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Major goosebumps and I totally teared up. The fight scene with the Praetorian Guards was fucking fantastic. All of it, and the connection between Rey and Kylo. Wow. I really love the wide shots of lightsaber battles. They're my favorite.
11. I have to give mad props to Andy Serkis. He's phenomenal as Snoke. Very commanding presence and insane powers. He was a very intimating villain and it was interesting to get a better look at his dynamic with Kylo. We saw the manipulation and Kylo basically being used as a tool, a pawn, in a larger game. Snoke wanted Skywalker out of the picture. The remaining Jedi, and he used Kylo to lure him out. That was the point Kylo knew what he had to do. Out with the old and in with the new.

12. Hux is so weaselly and whiny, but so fun to laugh at, especially the dynamic between him and Kylo.
13. The scene with Holdo going into light speed made me feel all the feels. And the way the scene was captured. WOW.
14. Porgs...I want one.
15. <3 Leia using the Force.
16. I am bummed we don't know Snoke's backstory. He was a formidable foe and would have liked to know more about him, though H and I've been talking and supposedly he may have originated from an uncharted area of the galaxy, where the First Order was hiding out.

I may come back to discuss more.

And even though I just said the opposite, everything you just said makes sense. And I can see it from that view, too. I need to rewatch (and maybe not at 10:30 because I nearly fell asleep), but I just felt like everything was so jammed in. I can see what you’re saying about Canto Bight, and I think what you’re saying is important about them showing all sides of the conflict and who it’s affecting and how, I just think it was so quick and seemingly disjointed from the rest of the movie- I wish they could have found a better way to weave it in?eave out something else so we could get more of that story- I don’t know. Like I said, I need to see it again- I just wish I had more Finn, less Po (he’s my least favorite character), and more character development for Rey. Kylo though I completely agree with you- Adam Driver was great at expressing just how confused and pulled from every direction he is.

I don’t understand Holdo though. I don’t know why they needed to introduce that new character, and her lightsleeding through that ship was cool and bad ass as hell, but I feel like they spent too much time on her.

[punisher]

I give this 8.9 out of 10 stars. Would've gotten a 9.2 if the "salt" exposition wasn't so forced.

But I overall really enjoyed it.

Best moments (not in order):
- Those opening credits with John Williams' theme. There's nothing quite like it to see the lettering and ride that music through to the pan down through the stars.
- The saber toss over the shoulder.
- Poe's hold message for Hux. Because that dude deserves all the awkward moments.
- Rey literally stretching out her hand and Luke tickling it with a leaf. /dead
- Light speed obliteration of the fleet... that was EPIC. Beautiful.
- The boy at the end slightly raising his broom in the posture of holding a saber. DH cried right there, because all of us when we were little wanted to join the Rebellion and be a Jedi!
- When Leia and Holdo both start to say "May the Force..." That was one of those "oh, Carrie" moments which made me cry.
- When Luke strides out of the smoke and flicks his shoulder. Sorry y'all, Imma let him be a badass right there.
- When you realize he was freakin' Force-projecting from across galaxies... OMG.
- When Yoda reminds Luke that training is not about teaching perfection, but about passing down lessons from failure. 
- The saber fight with Ben and Rey fighting off the Supreme Leader's guards.


Rey's parentage: My GOD, the vindication at them both acknowledging she came from normal yet awful people. To know that not everyone of major import in the Jedi universe has to be related to Skywalkers or Solos is a gavel for me, TYVM.

Carrie/Leia: I had many moments of connecting that Carrie Fisher is gone and seeing Leia with that same feeling. 

Luke and the horizon: I thought they wove that thread beautifully throughout, right to his last gaze at the sunset/sunrise.

ETA: I feel like the newer movies have done a great job of showing dynamics in space, etc. Seeing the blasts hit the shield instead of the ship, dropping into and out of light speed, craft ramping up to take off, etc.


Doubtful parts:
- Snoke not realizing what Kylo/Ben was about to do. Really?
- I really like Finn, but I feel like his storyline was somewhat wasted. By the end, I was hoping he'd make it all the way into the gun.
- The timing/editing of Finn and Rose on their knees awaiting execution... took FOREVER. I felt like I was watching the Bachelor. 
- I feel like Benicio DelToro's role was like a forced plug-n-play, like when Johnny Depp is eternally cast as characters which are odder than normal. 
- I also feel like I didn't get closure from Luke's statement to Rey, "You didn't even try to resist!" Like does this girl really have an inclination for the dark side?