She has always always ruled by fear and has to be talked out of her worst impulses. And even then she wasn’t always talked out of it. It’s been obvious in every interaction in this season and last that she is not a good ruler and doesn’t care about the people. It has been heavy handed in the show in my opinion (but obvious). She’s jealous, she burns food and doesn’t give a shit, she threatens Sansa. She’s never wanted to work collaboratively really and seeing people loving others (like Sansa) just made her crazier. But it was particularly obvious this season and it has always been 100% obvious that this whole Jon and Dany relationship was not a love story but a tragedy (to the viewers but people didn’t want to see it).
Dany was always going to be the final villain. Probably someone can find posts on here from years ago where I said it too.
Maybe a lot of that is from a viewer’s perspective but there were plenty of moments this season where it was clear Dany was not a good ruler and was consumed with the throne. And where Jon knew she was scary and capable of terrible things. Tyrion too. They just hoped they could keep her from this I guess. Look how that worked out!
This.
The show runners have sprinkled in a lot of these "Mad Queen" elements since earlier seasons. They were there. She's been the "savior" and the tyrant since she came to power with her dragons and armies. It's truly tragic. A once beloved and sympathetic character can become the show's ultimate villain.
This article explains it well. One thing is certain, this season, especially Dany's evolution into "Mad Queen," feels rushed. It could have been handled better.
Yes to this - “A Targaryen alone in the world is a dangerous thing”. With Jon refusing to bone she realized she was all alone in the world. I like this season, but I’m impatient with storylines that take 5 years to conclude 😂.
I'm still upset that we never got answers over why the Night King wanted to kill Bran?
I thought Bran said it was because as the TER, he was the memory of the world of men or something like that. And since the NK wanted to wipe out the world of men, he wanted to make sure that Bran was killed.
I thought it was kind of lame, as motivations go, because it's not like anything the TER knew was common knowledge. They've always been sequestered away from the rest of humankind, as far as I can tell. Like a book that nobody ever actually reads. But it makes some sense if you think of Bran as the mystical equivalent of the Citadel, where you can go to find things out that you can't learn anywhere else. If he were dead, certain knowledge would just never be able to be known or recovered by humans ever again, right down to the origin of the NK himself.
My theory- Dany makes a move to go for Sansa (or in some other way shows that she’s not done burning it all down), Jon kills her- but instead of sitting on the Iron throne he gives the right to rule to each of the seven kingdoms and separates them again. Then he gives Sansa the crown and power over Winterfell and fucks off north of the wall with ghost and the other freefolk.
Yes, this is my theory. Well, what I want to happen. I'm beginning to think there will be a lot of loose threads that are never tied up. Will we ever see Winterfell again? What if we don't know what happens to Sansa?
I'm still upset that we never got answers over why the Night King wanted to kill Bran?
As for this episode, parts were great and parts were awful. I feel that this may be a huge turning point for Arya. This was real war, not the Night King and WW's, that was a truly life or death situation. This was ruthless people out for power plays, what most wars are all about. I think she will be the one who kills Dany. And, I think she may go home and marry Gendry afterwards. Being sick of it all.
I'm really curious as why every one thinks Dany will go after Sansa? I understand that they hate each other. But why kill her? Is it because she knows the secret about Jon, if so, would she kill Arya too? Also, possibly a stupid question regarding Sansa, people have mentioned that she may end up on the throne? How can that happen? Do the Starks have some lineage that would make them eligible? That confuses me, I haven't figured that one out.
I'm so frustrated that they chose to end the show like this. They should have taken a couple of seasons to do all of this and wrapped it up nicely. Jumped the shark, is very appropriate.
Sansa is Jon's next-of-kin/heir. He's the true heir to the iron throne - but if he died first, it could be a real fight between Sansa and Dany, since Dany also has a really good claim. Although there's no way in hell Sansa wants to return to Kings Landing, she would be all about forcibly removing the North from Targaryan claim.
One of the pods said that Cersei's floor map cracked as the castle was crumbling and the crack ran between the north and south. I need to check that after work!
Yeah, I think we all know Tyrion is a goner. She said as much, he said as much.
I am not shocked Dany went Full Targ. This is the woman who, as a 14 year old girl, when her only living relative was brutally murdered in front of her, only said "He was no dragon." Like, what? Even given what Viserys was, that is not a response from someone with a healthy relationship with reality. I don't think we should expect her to have one, either, given everything she suffered up to just that point.
However, this is also the mature woman who uttered ""I am Daenerys Stormborn and I will take what is mine with fire and blood." Well. Girlfriend made good on that promise.
You see her thought process more in the books, when she realizes she can't do anything since he came into Vaes Dothrak with a sword and threatened to cut Rhaego out of her and take her away. Viserys also wanted to rape her before her wedding and had told her he'd let tens of thousands of people rape her. By the time Drogo gets up, she is thinking of him as "the man who had been her brother" (which, for somebody who threatened your child, seems like a firm line to reach, "fine, I told you not to bring the damn sword and be respectful, dumbass"). She feels bad for him and remembers him as being pathetic and cruel, but still her brother.
And yet "for the realm" Varys wanted Viserys to come to Westeros with his Dothraki horde. Without fAegon, that was his entire plan too... to let Viserys rule. Oh, he was also the one who was encouraging the Mad King's paranoia and telling him that Rhaegar was trying to get lords on his side so they could overthrow him. He and Jaime really suffered in the show, both before they ran out of book plot too, which is upsetting since Jaime was a great character who 100% should have strangled Cersei.
D&D really messed up by refusing the extra time and money HBO would give them to finish out a season. The cast can't even hide their disappointment at the season and have repeatedly told them things to improve their characters' actions (ex. Nikolaj wanted Jaime to leave Cersei by season 5, Lena disagreed about Cersei and Euron hooking up, Emilia pointed out that Dany would grab a sword rather than being a damsel in distress). When half the cast is either saying bad things or unable to act satisfied, I feel confident saying they'd have gone for the full 10 episodes and things wouldn't have felt as rushed.
Yeahhh... I've actually read all of the books. Numerous times.
But thanks for mansplaining this to me. Super appreciated.
One of the pods said that Cersei's floor map cracked as the castle was crumbling and the crack ran between the north and south. I need to check that after work!
It probably did but the show runners have put 0 thought into any symbolism you guys. Like, every detailed theory that fans have constructed based on “hints” and stuff hasn’t panned out. They creators have taken a straight line approach to storytelling. There’s no hidden meaning in these later seasons.
One of the pods said that Cersei's floor map cracked as the castle was crumbling and the crack ran between the north and south. I need to check that after work!
It probably did but the show runners have put 0 thought into any symbolism you guys. Like, every detailed theory that fans have constructed based on “hints” and stuff hasn’t panned out. They creators have taken a straight line approach to storytelling. There’s no hidden meaning in these later seasons.
One of the pods said that Cersei's floor map cracked as the castle was crumbling and the crack ran between the north and south. I need to check that after work!
It probably did but the show runners have put 0 thought into any symbolism you guys. Like, every detailed theory that fans have constructed based on “hints” and stuff hasn’t panned out. They creators have taken a straight line approach to storytelling. There’s no hidden meaning in these later seasons.
Yep this is accurate unfortunately. I mean I think in the early seasons (when they had book material) those hints were intentional and the ultimate ending was always meant to show us what it all meant- or at least most of it. It's so disappointing to follow a story with such a crazy high level of detail and character development and intricacy to have so much left unfinished at the end.
It probably did but the show runners have put 0 thought into any symbolism you guys. Like, every detailed theory that fans have constructed based on “hints” and stuff hasn’t panned out. They creators have taken a straight line approach to storytelling. There’s no hidden meaning in these later seasons.
Yep this is accurate unfortunately. I mean I think in the early seasons (when they had book material) those hints were intentional and the ultimate ending was always meant to show us what it all meant- or at least most of it. It's so disappointing to follow a story with such a crazy high level of detail and character development and intricacy to have so much left unfinished at the end.
This has shaped my viewing ever since that shit with the waif. Everyone waited and waited and waited for some deeper meaning to that arc, reading into all the “clues”. Why did the waif hate Arya?? Answer: Cuz she’s a bitch. Who is Jaqen H’gar? Answer: He’s just the guy that teaches the assassins and stuff. Well ok then.
My husband just pointed out that Varys was most likely trying to poison Dany. Hence why his little bird was reporting that she wasn't eating and she was afraid they were watching her.
I completely missed that implication.
Yes he was like “we’ll try again at dinner”
I'd love for this to be how Dany goes out. while the big players get plenty of attention in the books and show, there is also a consistent theme of people coming from nowhere, seeing opportunity and upending power. Little finger, Varys, Dario, Grey Worm, Melissandre, Jaime losing his hand to no one, Pip giving the fatal stab to Jon, Lord Mormont killed by his own, what's her name killing Drogo.
A scullery maid (mourning the death of her mentor and a whole city, who has access to poison) taking out the queen feels about right.
If anyone is a Pod Save America listener, I heartily concur with Lovett's thoughts during the bros' discussion at the end of yesterday's episode. It's not that I don't think there was no foreshadowing of Dany's turn. It was there. I just think they rushed it. She went from having streaks of tyranny and evil that were tempered by her complex nature and her advisors to just losing her fucking shit and going nuts.
I also saw a take on Twitter that summed it up pretty well for me: it's not that I need Dany to be a feminist hero. I just need her to not be a stereotype of a woman who goes crazy because she got dumped. I think that's where the timing and pacing comes in. If we'd had some character development between Jon rebuffing her and her burning the city, it would've been easier to handle.
Finally, I know the show is about the horrors of war, but it's already shown us so much gore. I just could've done with a little less. It felt gratuitous.
Thus, we can’t think of the destruction of King’s Landing as an undisciplined sack in the same sense as Jerusalem in 1099. It is a purposeful act, meant to demonstrate the queen’s power in service of securing her claim to rulership over Westeros.
Even if you just skim this article, be sure to read all the way to the disclaimer at the end.
So I'm doing a rapid rewatch of GOT before the last episode. LOL. I"m on season 5, we'll see if I make it.
I saw the Targaryen alone comment today. Definitely foreshadowing!
Another foreshadowing comment, Jaime was talking to Bronn about how they wanted to die and he said he wanted to die in the arms of the one he loved. That's why he went back. He knew Cersei would die and wanted to die with her.
As far as Dany's destruction of the city, she had no love for these people and they had none for her. They murdered Missandei and Rhaegar and supported Cersei.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Not sure if this was posted before, as I haven't combed through all of the thread yet.
Yes, but he didn't actually want to assassinate his sister, he wanted her to surrender and still be alive. That's why he freed Jaime, so that in theory Jaime could get to Cersei and the two of them could sneak away and live happily ever after in Pentos. Tyrion may be Dany's hand, and not want a war, but he also loves Jaime and doesn't want to murder his brother's incest baby.
It probably did but the show runners have put 0 thought into any symbolism you guys. Like, every detailed theory that fans have constructed based on “hints” and stuff hasn’t panned out. They creators have taken a straight line approach to storytelling. There’s no hidden meaning in these later seasons.
Also true. I need to let it gooooo!
and this is what makes me mad. it's like finding out those stupid numbers meant nothing on LOST.
On my commute this morning, I decided that Jon will try to kill Dany, but they will kill each other. Not like Romeo and Juliette, but fighting. And I’ve been saying for a season or two that Sansa will end up on top. Although, I think I got that from eclaires
On my commute this morning, I decided that Jon will try to kill Dany, but they will kill each other. Not like Romeo and Juliette, but fighting. And I’ve been saying for a season or two that Sansa will end up on top. Although, I think I got that from eclaires
SANSAFOREVER. I am glad to see I am converting people.
On my commute this morning, I decided that Jon will try to kill Dany, but they will kill each other. Not like Romeo and Juliette, but fighting. And I’ve been saying for a season or two that Sansa will end up on top. Although, I think I got that from eclaires
SANSAFOREVER. I am glad to see I am converting people.
I don't remember which post it was, but you converted me several seasons ago, and now I'm hardcore Team Sansa.
So my husband doesn't think we'll see Bron again but I think we might. Maybe he will be the one to kill Drogon and save Tyrion?
I think we're more likely to see him now that Cersei is dead. The actors won't film scenes together so since she won't be in the last show he'll likely come back. I'm curious if he's going to try to collect on any of the promises about getting a house. Cersei is dead and I just don't think Tyrion will have any juice to make it happen by pressuring Dany/Jon/Aryra/Sansa/Bran/Gendry/other person who rules the 7 Kingdoms (is there anyone left who could conceivably rule?)
So my husband doesn't think we'll see Bron again but I think we might. Maybe he will be the one to kill Drogon and save Tyrion?
I think we're more likely to see him now that Cersei is dead. The actors won't film scenes together so since she won't be in the last show he'll likely come back. I'm curious if he's going to try to collect on any of the promises about getting a house. Cersei is dead and I just don't think Tyrion will have any juice to make it happen by pressuring Dany/Jon/Aryra/Sansa/Bran/Gendry/other person who rules the 7 Kingdoms (is there anyone left who could conceivably rule?)
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
You see her thought process more in the books, when she realizes she can't do anything since he came into Vaes Dothrak with a sword and threatened to cut Rhaego out of her and take her away. Viserys also wanted to rape her before her wedding and had told her he'd let tens of thousands of people rape her. By the time Drogo gets up, she is thinking of him as "the man who had been her brother" (which, for somebody who threatened your child, seems like a firm line to reach, "fine, I told you not to bring the damn sword and be respectful, dumbass"). She feels bad for him and remembers him as being pathetic and cruel, but still her brother.
And yet "for the realm" Varys wanted Viserys to come to Westeros with his Dothraki horde. Without fAegon, that was his entire plan too... to let Viserys rule. Oh, he was also the one who was encouraging the Mad King's paranoia and telling him that Rhaegar was trying to get lords on his side so they could overthrow him. He and Jaime really suffered in the show, both before they ran out of book plot too, which is upsetting since Jaime was a great character who 100% should have strangled Cersei.
D&D really messed up by refusing the extra time and money HBO would give them to finish out a season. The cast can't even hide their disappointment at the season and have repeatedly told them things to improve their characters' actions (ex. Nikolaj wanted Jaime to leave Cersei by season 5, Lena disagreed about Cersei and Euron hooking up, Emilia pointed out that Dany would grab a sword rather than being a damsel in distress). When half the cast is either saying bad things or unable to act satisfied, I feel confident saying they'd have gone for the full 10 episodes and things wouldn't have felt as rushed.
Yeahhh... I've actually read all of the books. Numerous times.
But thanks for mansplaining this to me. Super appreciated.
Can I just say I’m still LoLing at this 36 hours later?