Oh and let’s be real. The Riverlands were pretty decimated seasons ago and might often makes right in the medieval world. Sansa has a northern army apparently (where they came from idk, but apparently they are threatening and there) and the north with the help of Dany’s forces pushed back the dead. The north has a position of power and Sansa is their leader. Edmure is a joke and always has been esp in the show.
Someone needed to tell him to sit his foolish ass down and Sansa seems like a totally reasonable choice. Not to mention, she wasn’t discourteous. She was perfectly polite. I’m pretty sure she even said please.
Oh and let’s be real. The Riverlands were pretty decimated seasons ago and might often makes right in the medieval world. Sansa has a northern army apparently (where they came from idk, but apparently they are threatening and there) and the north with the help of Dany’s forces pushed back the dead. The north has a position of power and Sansa is their leader. Edmure is a joke and always has been esp in the show.
Someone needed to tell him to sit his foolish ass down and Sansa seems like a totally reasonable choice. Not to mention, she wasn’t discourteous. She was perfectly polite. I’m pretty sure she even said please.
After she said please, while he was staring at her with his mouth open, she did that glance to his chair and he sat down...pure gold!!
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
I’m surprised so many people liked Sansa telling off Edmure. It doesn’t make any sense, unless we want to accept that she has just become a snarky, bitchy character. He is her uncle, from a family where the words are “Family, Duty, Honour”. He is the only family left from her parents’ generation. He is a Lord Paramount - pissing him off is stupid. He recognized Robb as King, fought for him, married a Frey to try to smooth things over after Robb broke his betrothal. He was held captive for YEARS because of her brother’s decision. He has a hell of a lot more experience than Bran or her. She has been taught over and over that courtesy is a type of armour (well, not so much in the show where she and Littlefinger were made into idiots who didn’t know how to keep a secret or make people think you’re on their side). It was a stupid decision in an episode filled with stupid things.
Plus, why did nobody react when Bran said he came all that way to be named king? If he can tell the future, he knew what pulling Jon and Dany apart would do and let her burn the city anyway. He said a few episodes ago that he can’t be lord of anything. Why would the southerners support him after his comments when he has never been south of Winterfell before? He is almost a godlike figure of a different religion and claims to be magic. People hated that Robb was a warg and didn’t trust him having a wolf, going as far as to start rumours about dark magic and the Starks being beastlings and abominations. The council members also didn’t even make sense, with inconsistent numbers from all over and only a handful of smaller lords and the like.
The more I think about this, the less I understand it.
Did you miss the episode where Ser Jaime Lannister used him to force the Riverrun garrison led by the Blackfish to surrender? He was told he had to marry one of the Frey girls and the only thing he focused on was how attractive his new wife would be. etc. Edmure was a pretty weak character, which is why his little speech about being the king was so laughable.
He surrendered Riverrun because he knew that they couldn't hold it and if they tried they were going to kill his child. Walder Frey was known to be petty so Edmure had good reason to believe that he would pick a bad bride for him on principal. As Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Freys' liege lord, it was a pretty crappy deal that he had to go with because Robb seriously messed up. Yet he does it and afterwards he is held captive for 3 seasons before going back into chains. In addition, Edmure was one of the better lords for the smallfolk - Cat thinks he might be a bit naive, but he takes in all the locals who are fleeing from the raping, murdering, and burning of the Lannister forces under the Mountain. Plenty of others were telling people to fend for themselves.
I think it was really played up his worse qualities in the show, because the characters were super simplified recently. I wasn't even a big fan of the Tullys and I used to like Sansa. I want to like what they did here, but I just can't. It goes against everything she was supposed to be for and everything she was supposed to have learned. Ditto Arya threatening Yara, head of the Iron Islands (which was supposed to already be its own country, based on the end of season 6), at a parlay.
One thing I do wonder - what was the third shocking thing that GRRM revealed to D&D that they said would come in this season. I feel like it kind of has to be Bran being king, because I can't imagine them doing that unless they felt like they had to. Who knows, though.
He was making a fool of himself and was completely irrelevant. She politely asked him to sit down (and again, pretty sure show Sansa vastly outranks show Edmure) and somehow that goes against everything she learned? What are you even talking about? She didn’t learn to not be strong or stand up for herself or keep her mouth shut. I think she learned the opposite. She has power, she’s using it and she’s not being a raging asshole.
Clearly you don’t like Sansa and how the show ended which is fine. But this is a bizarre take.
He was making a fool of himself and was completely irrelevant. She politely asked him to sit down (and again, pretty sure show Sansa vastly outranks show Edmure) and somehow that goes against everything she learned? What are you even talking about? She didn’t learn to not be strong or stand up for herself or keep her mouth shut. I think she learned the opposite. She has power, she’s using it and she’s not being a raging asshole.
Clearly you don’t like Sansa and how the show ended which is fine. But this is a bizarre take.
Does she outrank him? Jon is captive, but last we heard he is Warden of the North. Presumably Sansa is equal level to Edmure, as Lady of Winterfell (though I'll be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out Winterfell's order since Jon bent the knee!) while Edmure is Lord of Riverrun and presumably Lord Paramount of the Trident in the eyes of the Northerners, since that was his role under Robb.
She did learn to be strong and stand up for herself, but she knows that courtesy is important. When she is still captive in King's Landing, shortly after her father's death, she remembers that "a lady's armour is courtesy." She later mentions that it is something Septa Mordane taught her, so presumably this is something she has known since she was 11 and living in Winterfell. The concept of courtesy and the outer veneer is one that we see over and over again, at least in earlier seasons. Even Littlefinger and Varys show courtesy and at least feign respect, because that is how you play the game. You don't tell people that they are your enemy or that you don't trust them or that you're planning something that they won't like. It's Littlefinger 101.
I actually do enjoy Sansa. My six favourite POVs in the books (out of 24) are her, Davos, Dany, Jon, Bran, and Jaime. I don't like that she was a subtle player, with courtesy and feminine strength, who was learning how to be nice to somebody's face while planning something behind their backs. I don't like the Sansa who seems to be skeptical of everybody and who responds to everything with snarks and quips, who was going to have Arya killed if not for Bran in a cut scene last year, and who would break a promise made in front of a Heart Tree (thier equivalent of swearing on the Bible). It doesn't feel like Sansa any longer to me. I think she is one of the characters who suffered most from the compression of storylines, ever since they made her okay with marrying Ramsay Bolton - bastard son of a traitor involved in the Red Wedding, widely known to be cruel - immediately after fleeing Joffrey and a marriage to Tyrion, who while kind to her was from a family who was against her.
He was making a fool of himself and was completely irrelevant. She politely asked him to sit down (and again, pretty sure show Sansa vastly outranks show Edmure) and somehow that goes against everything she learned? What are you even talking about? She didn’t learn to not be strong or stand up for herself or keep her mouth shut. I think she learned the opposite. She has power, she’s using it and she’s not being a raging asshole.
Clearly you don’t like Sansa and how the show ended which is fine. But this is a bizarre take.
Does she outrank him? Jon is captive, but last we heard he is Warden of the North. Presumably Sansa is equal level to Edmure, as Lady of Winterfell (though I'll be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out Winterfell's order since Jon bent the knee!) while Edmure is Lord of Riverrun and presumably Lord Paramount of the Trident in the eyes of the Northerners, since that was his role under Robb.
She did learn to be strong and stand up for herself, but she knows that courtesy is important. When she is still captive in King's Landing, shortly after her father's death, she remembers that "a lady's armour is courtesy." She later mentions that it is something Septa Mordane taught her, so presumably this is something she has known since she was 11 and living in Winterfell. The concept of courtesy and the outer veneer is one that we see over and over again, at least in earlier seasons. Even Littlefinger and Varys show courtesy and at least feign respect, because that is how you play the game. You don't tell people that they are your enemy or that you don't trust them or that you're planning something that they won't like. It's Littlefinger 101.
I actually do enjoy Sansa. My six favourite POVs in the books (out of 24) are her, Davos, Dany, Jon, Bran, and Jaime. I don't like that she was a subtle player, with courtesy and feminine strength, who was learning how to be nice to somebody's face while planning something behind their backs. I don't like the Sansa who seems to be skeptical of everybody and who responds to everything with snarks and quips, who was going to have Arya killed if not for Bran in a cut scene last year, and who would break a promise made in front of a Heart Tree (thier equivalent of swearing on the Bible). It doesn't feel like Sansa any longer to me. I think she is one of the characters who suffered most from the compression of storylines, ever since they made her okay with marrying Ramsay Bolton - bastard son of a traitor involved in the Red Wedding, widely known to be cruel - immediately after fleeing Joffrey and a marriage to Tyrion, who while kind to her was from a family who was against her.
Haven’t even read past your first line but yes. Show Sansa outranks Show Edmure. In every way. Even if you think the Lady of Winterfell doesn’t outrank the Lord of Riverrun lol.
Literally the dumbest question I’ve ever read on here about anything.
Does she outrank him? Jon is captive, but last we heard he is Warden of the North. Presumably Sansa is equal level to Edmure, as Lady of Winterfell (though I'll be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out Winterfell's order since Jon bent the knee!) while Edmure is Lord of Riverrun and presumably Lord Paramount of the Trident in the eyes of the Northerners, since that was his role under Robb.
She did learn to be strong and stand up for herself, but she knows that courtesy is important. When she is still captive in King's Landing, shortly after her father's death, she remembers that "a lady's armour is courtesy." She later mentions that it is something Septa Mordane taught her, so presumably this is something she has known since she was 11 and living in Winterfell. The concept of courtesy and the outer veneer is one that we see over and over again, at least in earlier seasons. Even Littlefinger and Varys show courtesy and at least feign respect, because that is how you play the game. You don't tell people that they are your enemy or that you don't trust them or that you're planning something that they won't like. It's Littlefinger 101.
I actually do enjoy Sansa. My six favourite POVs in the books (out of 24) are her, Davos, Dany, Jon, Bran, and Jaime. I don't like that she was a subtle player, with courtesy and feminine strength, who was learning how to be nice to somebody's face while planning something behind their backs. I don't like the Sansa who seems to be skeptical of everybody and who responds to everything with snarks and quips, who was going to have Arya killed if not for Bran in a cut scene last year, and who would break a promise made in front of a Heart Tree (thier equivalent of swearing on the Bible). It doesn't feel like Sansa any longer to me. I think she is one of the characters who suffered most from the compression of storylines, ever since they made her okay with marrying Ramsay Bolton - bastard son of a traitor involved in the Red Wedding, widely known to be cruel - immediately after fleeing Joffrey and a marriage to Tyrion, who while kind to her was from a family who was against her.
Haven’t even read past your first line but yes. Show Sansa outranks Show Edmure. In every way. Even if you think the Lady of Winterfell doesn’t outrank the Lord of Riverrun lol.
Literally the dumbest question I’ve ever read on here about anything.
Seriously? Asking how the head of one area is equal to another is a valid question.
In my opinion and several other long-time book and show fans I've talked to (two of whom have Sansa as one of their top 3 characters, one of whom said Sansa was her favourite overall), Sansa has seemed plenty rude and not like herself since season six. I get that she's your favourite and everything, but I think there are valid things to be frustrated by in her arc as a Sansa fan. She hasn't been courteous or playing the game the way I expected Littlefinger's protege to or even the way we saw her doing it earlier in the series, where she didn't give people reason to think she was against them or would lie to them. If you still like show-Sansa has that's fine and I legitimately wish I like her as much as book Sansa (who I had predicted would be leader of the North), but I think her character was done a disservice.
Also, it seems ridiculous to call Edmure a buffoon. Compared to literally every person on Bran's small council, he has more experience. Even accounting for his time as a prisoner he has spent more time as acting Lord in a region filled with petty squabbles than the other characters, since it sounds like Hoster has been ill for quite some time. Plus, most characters have been acting like idiots for a while lol.
Post by lissaholly on May 21, 2019 20:38:31 GMT -5
I think the character of “show Sansa” was created in the time of #MeToo. She is a survivor in every way and she was as naive as they come at the beginning. She suffers no fools and yes, a mediocre character standing up to state his credentials, was mansplaining 101. It’s a damn nice story arc to see her telling a man, who absolutely sees himself as her superior, to sit down, with the approval of the group. It was super satisfying, and no, it didn’t align with the book. That doesn’t mean it shouldn't be well received and it doesn’t mean it wasn’t well thought out.
HE TRIPPED OVER HIS SWORD when sitting down. He is absolutely 100% a buffoon in the show in almost every scene he’s been in.
I’m not debating titles here. Edmure is a minor character. Sansa is not. The end. Who else is going to tell him to sit down? This is honestly the weirdest thing to latch onto. Even in the books Sansa is a POV character and he is not. How many ways can she outrank him? Let me count them. And for the billionth time there is nothing discourteous about saying please sit down to someone making a fool of themselves. It’s not impolite to have a voice and use it. SANSA DOESNT NEED TO HIDE ANYMORE. SHE IS POWERFUL IN HER OWN RIGHT AND CAN SPEAK WITHOUT FEAR. THAT DOESNT MEAN SHES DISCOURTEOUS. IN WHAT WORLD IS SPEAKING POLITELY NOT BEING COURTEOUS? DID LF NEVER SPEAK? Lol what in the world!!
I’ve read the books a zillion times. This scene has nothing to do with what anyone has read in the books. Even if the council exists in the books with the same outcome, it has zero impact on what the show chooses to write as dialogue for that moment and it’s not out of character for show Sansa to speak her mind in a perfectly polite way that exhibits she has power and will use it.
Also Book Sansa wasn’t sold into sexual slavery by LF to a total sadist so expecting her arc and personality to track with the books is, frankly, ignorant.
Also I love Sansa. Both versions of her. I don’t expect them to be the same for a zillion reasons. There’s Sophie’s Sansa and there’s book Sansa and I root for both of them. Separately. Because they are two different people to me.
I have zero problem with anything she’s done in the show and PS she was fucking right, lol. People should have listened to her.
Just a polite reminder that the books are irrelevant at this point in the show. They don't exist. Expecting the last three seasons to develop based on the books - even the books that do exist - is an exercise in futility. If anyone wants to be mad about how things ended up, be mad at GRRM, who, yanno...HASN'T FINISHED THE BOOKS.
eta #2: I am NOT HERE for anyone criticizing Sansa for "not playing the game" by "being polite." She has suffered way too much. She doesn't need to play or be polite anymore, nor should she ever have to (nor should any woman, for that matter). Expecting her to not speak up in that moment is just feeding a ridiculous narrative that isn't relevant anymore.
Post by One Girl In All The World on May 21, 2019 21:35:16 GMT -5
As someone who’s never read the books, and loves Sansa, I was a little wtf at her telling her uncle to sit down. Granted I had no recollection of him in the series prior to that moment. Whole I loved it on the one hand, the council thing was just weird and forced to me.
also where the fuck was Edmure when the dead were coming? Did somebody free him after the Freys were murdered? I honestly was surprised he was still alive.
I’ve watched every episode of this show. I had no idea who Edmure even was, when they showed him sitting with the council. So, comparing a little known character, to THE FUCKING QUEEN OF THE NORTH?
Queen Sansa can tell whoever she wants to have a seat. That was one of the best parts of the whole episode. Then Uncle Whoever can’t even sit down like a normal person. He tripped on his sword. And you really want to argue that he outranks her?
Was Cersei “polite and demure” enough? Or Dany? Miss me with that polite bullshit.
Was Cersei “polite and demure” enough? Or Dany? Miss me with that polite bullshit.
It’s not just women. Courtesies have been extremely important throughout the entire series, for both men and women. It’s why you get all of the “my lady” and “my lord” and “ser” titles being used all the time. It’s why Stannis referred to Jaime as “Ser Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer. He is still an anointed knight” while discussing the contents of the letters proclaiming Joff a bastard. The first episode, with all the interactions between the royals and the Starks, are filled with courtesies. People kneel and bow before their king, even his best friend. Renly and Catelyn are full of courtesies for each other, while discussing the possibility of northern independence. Tywin started talking to Oberyn with comments about how it was a pity Doran couldn’t make it because of gout.. It’s just what is done in the society we have been presented with. Even nowadays, would it be smart for somebody to tell another leader to sit down and cut them off?
Also, in what world is it rational to cut off your uncle, who is the leader of a Kingson that is pledged to yours. He supported his eldest nephew’s claim to a Northern throne and recognized him as king. The Riverlands supported the North and wanted to be a part of that kingdom. It was possible that he would do his little introduction then propose his niece or nephew as king. If not, it wouldn’t hurt to listen to the man who spent years in chains because of his support of your family. Be courteous for no other reason than family loyalty, which was stressed by both Cat and Ned, and because he is going to be the ruler of the kingdom on your only border. If you need help with wildlings invading or you need to trade or access anything from the south, you don’t want to piss off the person who controls the land bordering yours.
The common courtesies of Westeros were very important in the past, for men and women. It didn’t feel true to the world to me because of interactions between highborn lords and ladies up to this point were always with a certain tone.
The part about subtlety also applies to everyone. Littlefinger and Varys knew it, which is why they both acted friendly enough to everyone to keep their options open and to not turn people against them. Having studied under Littlefinger, the man who successfully convinced everyone he was on their side, it seemed strange that Sansa has shown a lot of hostility to others, includinng Arya last season (until Bran stepped in to explain that Littlefinger was trying to control things in something we didn’t see, per behind the scenes stuff).
Post by irishbride2 on May 22, 2019 5:29:37 GMT -5
The entire capitol was just reduced to ashes. Weeks before, they almost lost the entire world to a bunch of evil dead people. Her brother , who she knows is the rightful heir, is at risk for execution because he killed his lover in order to save the world.
But Sansa should waste time indulging a fool. Say what?
The entire capitol was just reduced to ashes. Weeks before, they almost lost the entire world to a bunch of evil dead people. Her brother , who she knows is the rightful heir, is at risk for execution because he killed his lover in order to save the world.
But Sansa should waste time indulging a fool. Say what?
COURTESY* IS THE ONLY THING IMPORTANT IN WESTEROS!!
*also it is not courteous to say “uncle, please sit” in a polite tone of voice. It is the height of rudeness apparently.
I think Sansa was being courteous. Edmure was putting himself in front of everyone on that panel, and he wasn’t being respectful. Sansa essentially begged the pardon of Edmure for everyone else on that panel, minutes before asking to be a free kingdom. Sounds like an incredibly polite power play for a Lady who knew she was about to need allies.
It’s coming across tone deaf to insist that a modern television series didn’t choose a “nice girl” character development over a powerful one. It’s also hypocritical because they vend the other way to meet decorum with GreyWorm, the breaker of chains bloodiest defender, literally calling a panel of all the world’s richest families to decide how to deal with his Queens assassin and most public traitor. AND THEN let the traitor decide the fate of the world?
To address this in a somewhat serious way, how did both behind the back, courteous to your face plotters end up? Executed. Both of them.
The point of Sansa (and every young POV character, esp Starks) has always been to find the balance between who they were before and what they learned along the way to allow them to survive. Sansa was never meant to be a LF clone. She was meant to take what she learned and make it better. And look! She did. She doesn’t lose who she is but can play the game and triumph. Expecting her to just totally emulate her mentor is laughable. And if she had - she wouldn’t be queen in the north. Allowing her to speak her mind and be in a position of power flips what she witnessed with Cersei too. Cersei was power mad and batshit partially because of the roles she was forced into and the respect she wasn’t given.
I think Sansa was being courteous. Edmure was putting himself in front of everyone on that panel, and he wasn’t being respectful. Sansa essentially begged the pardon of Edmure for everyone else on that panel, minutes before asking to be a free kingdom. Sounds like an incredibly polite power play for a Lady who knew she was about to need allies.
It’s coming across tone deaf to insist that a modern television series didn’t choose a “nice girl” character development over a powerful one. It’s also hypocritical because they vend the other way to meet decorum with GreyWorm, the breaker of chains bloodiest defender, literally calling a panel of all the world’s richest families to decide how to deal with his Queens assassin and most public traitor. AND THEN let the traitor decide the fate of the world?
The fact that we have all these powerful characters but don’t get to hear from people outside the couple main characters is part of my problem. Even secondary characters had motives and goals earlier, which they worked towards. Here, they could be replaced by empty chairs and things wouldn’t change. Why would Dorne want to stay in the kingdoms? Why would the Iron Islands not bring up that they were granted independence? Why was one person allowed to threaten another when they were supposed to be making a decision? Why would the Reach be empty and not represented, except for a man who has twice taken vows to give up his claim to the region? Why is the representative for the best interest of the Stormlands an illiterate man who has never set foot in the region? Why would the North not allow their, who was a part of their kingdom under Robb, to speak? Why would a kinslayer, convicted kingslayer, and Hand who has given consistently bad advice to a deposed ruler get to control the event? Why would the south choose somebody who has never been south of Winterfell, claims to be magic, claims to be a god-like figure for another religion, and who says he knew what would happen in the future (but didn’t say that before the mass burning of the capital!) to be their king?
My objection to the line isn’t as a single line, but in the context of larger problems I have with the show, for male and female characters. Considering I want the backstabbing and being nice to somebody’s face while scheming behind their back, I think it’s silly to say I want my female characters to be demure and sit down. What I want was to see more stuff like earlier in the series, where everybody had motives and their own goals and the writers remembered that the Riverlands claimed to be part of the North. (Although I am from a place where you apologize if somebody walks into you, so there’s that.) Clearly people here disagree, which is fine. I didn’t mean to take over the conversation with my issues.
Returning to an earlier question - what does everyone think the third shocking moment was? Bran being named king?
Regarding Sansa and Edmure, the first time we saw Edmure he couldn't hit Hoster Tullys funeral pyre with an arrow, which Arya could do at age 8. Then he is super proud of his fighting efforts but Rob scolds him for a few minutes for not following orders because he wanted to draw The Mountain into a trap but Edmures actions basically let him go. Then he argues about marrying a pretty girl and they essentially force him to make up for letting the Mountain go. Then he is held captive for years. He's been portrayed as a bit of a joke the entire series and then he tries to be king?
I mean I'm pretty sure Bernie Sanders has done more, and we would like him to please sit lol. (Side note....can Liz or Kamala reenact this during a debate please?)
*also for a comment up thread, he wasnt being held by the Frey's, he was being held by the Lannisters, I'm not sure if he was being held at Casterly Rock or Kings Landing though but Jamie mentioned it when he made him surrender Riverrun after the Blackfish took it. If he was at the Rock they probably moved him when they were anticipating the Unsullied coming to take it last season.
Another side note, it doesnt matter that Gendry is illiterate and just got to the Stormlands yesterday. Its his now, so he gets to decide. That's how feudalism works. His voice is the only one that matters unless he chooses to send a proxy or something.