@jiggy We used to have an english bulldog and she was a complete mess. She died at age 8 from a rare skin cancer. I sometimes check the bulldog rescue pages and at times all the dogs they're fostering are on medical hold with some serious or chronic issue. It's so sad
I was obsessed with english bulldogs as a kid and a teen. Fully intended to get one until I met a pug in 2007 that changed everything, lol. I was like "wait, these little roly polys are so small and cute and hilarious" and that was that. I never realized how heavy and muscular english bulldogs are!
my sister has a frenchie and it has definitely had its fair share of health problems.
I can get on board with the fact that there may be some responsible breeders and some people might have REASONS for getting a dog from them. BUT OMG THE ANECDOTES I CAN’T.
Post by Patsy Baloney on Jul 17, 2019 14:49:21 GMT -5
There are difficult pets, just like difficult people. I agree with pixy. I don’t think people realize how hard they can be.
Besides, there are shit animals everywhere. My jerk didn’t come from a shelter, he came from hell, hiding his flaws long enough for us to let him in and start to love him.
Just because a breeder shows their dogs does not make them a good one!
You are correct. There are many "show breeders" I would not buy a dog from. But, it is a good place to start. However, not treating their dogs well isn't a criteria I would use to be a good or bad breeder. There are many, many BRBs who love the shit out of their dogs and still have no business breeding.
So if a breeder neglects or abuses their dogs you wouldn’t consider them a bad breeder?
There is a big difference between AKC registered and someone who actively is showing their dogs to championship.
My ILs have shown dogs (Irish Water Spaniels) for more than 20 years and and are very, very active in their breed rescue. In fact all their dogs since I've known them have been retired show dogs (ETA: Retired from confirmation showing; ILs do hunt and obedience - putting all three on a dog makes them an "all around dog"); their current dog was at Westminster. While not everyone who shows dogs is a good breeder, I will say that the dog world is very, very small. If there is a breeder who has a bad reputation, it gets out double quick. I've personally seen a breeder get banned when we were showing. It's not to say that they wouldn't be able to sell a dog to someone who wasn't keyed into the show world but there is a checks and balance.
You are correct. There are many "show breeders" I would not buy a dog from. But, it is a good place to start. However, not treating their dogs well isn't a criteria I would use to be a good or bad breeder. There are many, many BRBs who love the shit out of their dogs and still have no business breeding.
So if a breeder neglects or abuses their dogs you wouldn’t consider them a bad breeder?
I don't think I said anything remotely close. I just said it shouldn't be a criteria for being considered a bad breeder, unless you are going to accept that treating your dogs well is a criteria for a good breeder.
So if a breeder neglects or abuses their dogs you wouldn’t consider them a bad breeder?
I don't think I said anything remotely close. I just said it shouldn't be a criteria for being considered a bad breeder, unless you are going to accept that treating your dogs well is a criteria for a good breeder.
Post by litskispeciality on Jul 17, 2019 15:09:05 GMT -5
If you're going to neglect a dog that's abuse in my book, period. They can't feed themselves, they can't speak up and tell someone else something is wrong. My parents had a cat who came from show cats, the owner didn't intend to breed but apparently you couldn't fix the show cats so here we are. Thank God the cat was ok, but had to live in a different part of the house and was a neusance for a year until my mom adopted him. I'm sorry but that was irresponsible, even if she fed the cat she shouldn't be allowed to have them.
I can get on board with the fact that there may be some responsible breeders and some people might have REASONS for getting a dog from them. BUT OMG THE ANECDOTES I CAN’T.
Anecdotes are like cockroaches. I can't think of how to finish that analogy, but that's how I feel about them.
Just because a breeder shows their dogs does not make them a good one!
I don’t really know about showing, but I thought for AKC shows you had to have proper bloodline paperwork? Which meant that only the best bloodlines were being breeded helping to better the breed.
There is a lot more to it than that. AKC registration by itself is just a piece of paper that someone paid for, and is meaningless. Puppy mills have been known to have registered their dogs.
Showing is meant to distinguish dogs who conform to the breed standards. It is supposed to be about breeding the best to keep the breeds doing the jobs they were meant to be doing, having the structure that the bred should have, the right look, movement, and disposition. A champion is meant to be a great example of the breed, worthy of breeding.
It may not be a perfect system, and not all show breeders are reputable, but we met a lot of people who were passionate/crazy about their breed of choice, and were committed to all things breed specific, including breed specific rescue, health testing/health issues in the breed, and education about the breed. Their lives revolved around their dogs, dog clubs, dog related message boards, etc.. They definitely weren't in it for the money. It is expensive to show and to care for all of their dogs, and they spend a lot more on the dogs they keep than they make on the ones they do sell.
The kind of people that are not prepared to deal with issues that many rescue dogs come with. I know you had said that people saying "he's a rescue..." to describe a dog's bad/odd behavior is a pet peeve, but let's be honest, a lot of older dogs in rescue are there due to poor behavior whether it be from coming from a bad situation where a dog is not properly socialized or from someone giving up a cute puppy when it enters it's naughty "teenage" years. And sometimes just being "a rescue" IS the reason for a dog's poor behavior - shelter-based rescues with not enough volunteers to socialize dogs, bouncing around to too many foster homes, etc. These behaviors may not be the dog's fault and may be totally normal for the dog's age, but there is a big difference between knowing/training a dog up from a puppy and acquiring a teenager that has bad habits in place that will take more time and patience to correct. While you can certainly teach an old dog new tricks, bad habits in an adult dog are certainly harder to fix than in a puppy. And yes, I know that you can get a puppy through a rescue as well and that there are many legit rescues adopting out puppies but I'm getting wary of more and more of these lately. So many fly-by-night shady "rescues" dealing in puppies that are just as bad as the backyard breeders (or actually are backyard breeders.)
I don't want to come off as anti-rescue, but once you've had multiple fosters adopted out and then returned because adopters can't/aren't willing to put the time into helping an older dog adjust and overcome their issues you sour on the "everyone should just adopt" very quickly.
Hopping off my soapbox now, I could go on forever. This has been a topic that has been weighing heavily on me as I've had 2 fosters in the past 3 months be returned through no fault of their own. Now I'm working to correct bad behaviors that I know they did not leave here with - food stealing and bolting out the door. And working to adopt them because I can't watch them go out the door again
I would say that the people you're describing shouldn't adopt any dog. Yes, sometimes dogs from the shelter have issues, but every dog owner should be willing to put time into training and socializing their dog, no matter where they get them or at what age.
Puppies are fucking nuts, and if you don't spend the time to properly train and socialize them, that's how they end up being owner surrenders at shelters.
That said @nospeakae makes good points too. I tend to lean toward these people shouldn't have a dog at all, though, too.
So if a breeder neglects or abuses their dogs you wouldn’t consider them a bad breeder?
I don't think I said anything remotely close. I just said it shouldn't be a criteria for being considered a bad breeder, unless you are going to accept that treating your dogs well is a criteria for a good breeder.
Okay, dogs that were abused for 7 years, removed from their mothers too soon, and never touched except to breed are going to have issues because of THOSE reasons. Not because they ended up being rescued. Good grief, it's like people are purposely obtuse to try to prove their point.
🤷
A lot of people in this post have described extremely bad behavior/thoughtlessness from people who buy from breeders. Presumably those same shitty people are the bulk of those surrendering their animals (barring some). I don't think anyone is being obtuse here, assholes abuse and neglect animals all the time and dump them.
@jiggy We used to have an english bulldog and she was a complete mess. She died at age 8 from a rare skin cancer. I sometimes check the bulldog rescue pages and at times all the dogs they're fostering are on medical hold with some serious or chronic issue. It's so sad
I was obsessed with english bulldogs as a kid and a teen. Fully intended to get one until I met a pug in 2007 that changed everything, lol. I was like "wait, these little roly polys are so small and cute and hilarious" and that was that. I never realized how heavy and muscular english bulldogs are!
my sister has a frenchie and it has definitely had its fair share of health problems.
Yes! Our Lucy was 65 lbs, and they are STRONG. We had to get a leash that clipped in the front because she pulled all the time. Also really really stubborn. We had private obedience lessons and it literally took the lady 45 minutes to get her to sit. We would do the treat thing, and then move it to make her sit but she would back up. Then try again and she would back up. She got her into a corner in the kitchen so she couldnt back up but instead of sitting she jumped up and took the treat. After several sessions and $400 we eventually settled for just teaching her not to jump on people 🤣
I can get on board with the fact that there may be some responsible breeders and some people might have REASONS for getting a dog from them. BUT OMG THE ANECDOTES I CAN’T.
Anecdotes are like cockroaches. I can't think of how to finish that analogy, but that's how I feel about them.
The rescue I work with trains shelter dogs to be service dogs.
That being said, there are positives to knowing most everything about breeding lines when it comes to service dogs that can be beneficial and result in more dogs getting to those in need. I know non-profit providing service, hearing, seizure or autism dogs that has been around for 30 years and breeds their own dogs because it worked out better for them than depending on shelters to provide the right size, temperament, intelligence, etc. levels.
The organization we are getting my daughter’s service dog from uses English Labs for their the majority of their service dogs. So pure breed. However they do rescue dogs and train them for certain services too. They rescued a pitball that was used as a bait dog and now she is now a therapy dog. Which I think is great.
Post by mrsukyankee on Jul 17, 2019 15:59:32 GMT -5
I know one good breeder. She tests every single dog she uses for breeding - eyes, elbow scores, etc. She makes sure that any dog she brings in for breeding is also tested in a similar manner. She only breeds if she has people already on her waiting list for her dogs and only breeds a bitch a max of x amount of times (I can't remember, but it was after checking with various vets to make sure the number was okay for the bitches' health). If someone takes on a dog and then wants to surrender it, she will take the dog back and find an appropriate person for the dog. She makes sure to socialise the dogs, expose them to a variety of environments, etc.
Despite this, I will get my next dog from a rescue because I'm a big believer in rescues despite the fact that Barney was a very difficult dog - he had major anxiety issues due to being abused. My last dog was a rescue and future dogs will be a rescue. I just believe in them.
A woman I know, who is very young, keeps buying dogs from what appear to be backyard breeders. They never take their pups back, they basically told her "once you buy, it is yours, don't contact us for anything"
And every time she oohs and aahs over these dogs I tell her to look for that breed specific rescue to see if there is one.
She can't wrap her head around it and only sees cute fluffy small dog. It drives me nuts.
So she dropped 2500 + 600 to fly it in. *eye roll* and then the breeder blocked her.
We got a purebred Border Terrier from a breeder and paid $$$ for her. But we had a cat and a small child and that breed is known for being extremely good with both. And she is. My kid has climbed all over her, pull her hair, etc (which we obviously don’t allow but he still would do it when we weren’t looking) and she didn’t even attempt to nip. She is so unbelievably good with him.
A few years later we rescued a dog from the humane society who had lived on the streets. They said he was great with cats and kids. He’s not lol. He HATES cats and is just ok with kids. He’ll nip if his tail or paws are touched and he has absolutely no patience for kid shenanigans. Luckily he’s tiny and doesn’t have many teeth.
Speaking of buying dogs, my cousin just got a new puppy. It's from the Ukraine. It's a breed I've never heard of (I won't post because Google).
WTF? There aren't any dogs in the US? I can't imagine what this cost. It's a little hairless ratty looking dog. It's cute, I'll give them that. But I can't imagine there wasn't a single appropriate puppy on this side of the globe.
My two rescues are perfect and have no behavioral issues. The shih tzu is stubborn af, and the pit/lab is still a baby so very high energy. But they’re great. The shih tzu doesn’t shed at all the lab mix barely does. #anecdote
So while I do think in some (RARE) instances a breeder is warranted, stop with the “well, we couldn’t rescue because kids/cats/shedding/whatever.”
With my experiences this past year, I don't see why any breeders are "good" or "bad." I don't think they should exist except for true service animal situations. There are so many animals who need homes.
Post by Leeham Rimes on Jul 17, 2019 16:51:39 GMT -5
H knows someone who spent $8k on a French bulldog. I just laugh and laugh. He put it in a credit card too so it’ll probably end up a $10k dog once it’s actually paid off.
I need ham like water Like breath, like rain I need ham like mercy From Heaven's gate Sometimes ham salad or casserole or ham that’s free range, all natural I need ham
H knows someone who spent $8k on a French bulldog. I just laugh and laugh. He put it in a credit card too so it’ll probably end up a $10k dog once it’s actually paid off.
That is not a sound financial investment.
dude that was so dumb. Rescue a frenchie and put the 8k in savings for the health issues that are to come. The sweet dogs are so messed up