Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Aug 20, 2019 16:12:19 GMT -5
I don’t know that I would qualify this situation as “excellent communication.” He wanted you to lie to someone else’s whole ass family and wasn’t even clear what to even lie about or who to lie to. And I don’t want to have to invent stories to cover up other stories and then try to keep it all straight. It put you in a fucked up position and frankly it’s a weird ask anyway. Do you want to be a part of a family that works so hard to cover up something as essential as how both brothers make a living? How would you know that’s the only lie? Or if there’s someone else you have to tell this story to that you don’t even know about?
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Is this for real? It's all so super weird. I don't think you have the great communication and great relationship you think you do if your SO is saying such awful things to you, putting his brother *and his ILs* ahead of you, and you're talking about splitting up via text. And yes, your BIL is for real an asshole, as are his wife and her parents. It sounds like he married into the right family. Lord.
Post by klingklang77 on Aug 20, 2019 16:20:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I’m starting to feel this is a deal breaker to me and our communication on this big issue is not the best right now. But it’s the first time we really have butted heads about something. Any other argument we sit and talk and make up eventually. But those are smaller issues.
Our last big fight was that I brought home Chinese dumplings to watch along with a movie as a surprise date night. He just wanted to cook bacon and put it with the dumplings. I felt hurt because I planned this out and bacon doesn’t go with dumplings. I didn’t think we’d ever fight about about something like bacon, but we did.
But this issue is far bigger. I think we can work it out but it’s going to take time. For now, I just need a break.
Is this for real? It's all so super weird. I don't think you have the great communication and great relationship you think you do if your SO is saying such awful things to you, putting his brother *and his ILs* ahead of you, and you're talking about splitting up via text. And yes, your BIL is for real an asshole, as are his wife and her parents. It sounds like he married into the right family. Lord.
Yes, it is for real. And, yes, it’s really weird. The texting is because he is away on a work trip in another part of the state and we don’t do phone calls. I don’t like to talk on the phone and he doesn’t as well. It works for us and we both agree to it. I think I just might request a phone call, though. There seems a lot that is lost in translation this time.
Wow, this is seriously fucked up. Does he have any friends? what do they think about this? What about his parents? Your BF needs to grow a backbone.
He has a few friends, but he’s so busy working that he doesn’t have time to fit them in often.
He just isn’t too sociable. He has to fit everything in with seeing his family, and I’m kind of the extrovert at these family events. His friend group overlaps on mine. I do the job at the university he went to that teaches how to be a teacher, so he knows all of my colleagues and goes to more of my friend based events. He’s usually not too keen on going, but he always has a good time when we go to these events.
I haven’t asked what his parents think about this. I just don’t want to get involved. I do know that they do not care for the brother’s wife very much and you can see it in the way they kind of ignore her. I mean, I’ll hug his dad and walk arm in arm sometimes with him at events and he always makes it a point to do this. I never see him do that with the brother’s wife. Now I know why.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Aug 20, 2019 16:40:04 GMT -5
Okay, reading your responses, OP, it looks like I misunderstood the initial post. I thought you were asked to lie about what your SO and also what his brother did. But I understand now.
This is so indicative of a larger family dynamic that would worry me. Basically the brother is taking his own shame about what SO does and projecting it around. Do you even know that SIL would judge it? Or is that just the assumption about her? Maybe the reason your SO is insisting that it’s not a big deal is because if he really acknowledged how yucky this ask is, it would mean that his own brother was ashamed of him, not some older generation who maybe didn’t know better. And that is a really fucking hurtful thing to think about your own family member, which makes me feel sad for him.
I’m sorry you’re put in this situation. I think to stay in the relationship, at a minimum I wouldn’t be able to lie to family anymore, and we would definitely be seeking therapy, because I still think this is indicative of an unhealthy family dynamic where he will bend over backwards for his brother and put you second to make things easier for him. I don’t think it will be the last time this kind of behavior comes up. Good luck.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Okay, reading your responses, OP, it looks like I misunderstood the initial post. I thought you were asked to lie about what your SO and also what his brother did. But I understand now.
This is so indicative of a larger family dynamic that would worry me. Basically the brother is taking his own shame about what SO does and projecting it around. Do you even know that SIL would judge it? Or is that just the assumption about her? Maybe the reason your SO is insisting that it’s not a big deal is because if he really acknowledged how yucky this ask is, it would mean that his own brother was ashamed of him, not some older generation who maybe didn’t know better. And that is a really fucking hurtful thing to think about your own family member, which makes me feel sad for him.
I’m sorry you’re put in this situation. I think to stay in the relationship, at a minimum I wouldn’t be able to lie to family anymore, and we would definitely be seeking therapy, because I still think this is indicative of an unhealthy family dynamic where he will bend over backwards for his brother and put you second to make things easier for him. I don’t think it will be the last time this kind of behavior comes up. Good luck.
I completely agree. It’s the future that worries me with his whole family dynamic. I see all this happening now so early in our relationship, and I want to nip it in the bud now. I feel sorry for him, too. It’s really a shame that he has to deal with all of this, but there is only so much I can do. I mean I don’t want to get too involved in his family dynamic. Lying is not one of those things I can do.
Maybe it is all cultural (they are all German and I’ve seen they can be different when it comes to family)?
In my experience, family dynamics can be weird and it leads the new (or newish) girlfriend to feel weird when they are ***expected*** to fall into line. I’ve experienced it around holiday traditions, foods and all sorts of things. For whatever reason, your BF thinks it’s totes normal to follow his brother’s request to act like he has a ‘more prestigious’ job than he has. And that leads to YOU being the outsider who is a weirdo for not going along with the family line that this former teacher isn’t still a teacher.
What jumps out at me is - “BIL would not have invited you to the Christening if he knew you weren’t comfortable with continuing the lie”. Like, you have somehow failed expectations. That YOUR failed moral compass is creating some kind of regret for even allowing you to be there.
I don’t know how you navigate this expectation in your relationship - in the greater way as it applies to a few things: - Just be fucking HONEST with people - Just be fucking proud of the job you do - Don’t be fake and make-up shit - Don’t let snobs get away with being snobs
But I do know that you are not welcome to join the Christening if you don’t agree to be a liar ‘if it comes up’. If someone “regretted” inviting me to a party if I didn’t keep up some BS line I would agree that I should not go - and then not go.
Sadly, you cannot control the BIL or BF, but you can control yourself. And as much as you want to feel like an accepted family member who attends milestone family events, you should not go under these rules. You won’t *ruin* the Christening if you are not there.
If your BF would rather you bow-out of the family event than be free to be honest, that tells you a lot about him.
Maybe aspects of this is cultural, but don’t chalk it all up to that. The lying, the deep need to make his brother happy at your and his expense - this isn’t cultural.
Maybe aspects of this is cultural, but don’t chalk it all up to that. The lying, the deep need to make his brother happy at your and his expense - this isn’t cultural.
This is all very true. Thank you for your advice. I’ll take it all on board.
Ugh, I'm so sorry. He is reacting really poorly to this. Nothing you have expressed here is even remotely unreasonable and criticising your "behavior" is really inappropriate.
I hope you are able to talk on the phone. If there was one thing I learned in failed marriage counseling (with my ex) it's that fighting via text is a terrible way to communicate. I hope something is getting lost in translation, but this would be a huge red flag for me.
WTAF? I would definitely not attend the Christening.
Stop texting and wait until you are in person to have this conversation. It sounds like it might be a conversation of whether you stay together or not so it’s better just waiting and cooling off on both sides and calmly discussing it in person.
OP, you have stated one of the points in favor of your relationship is that your SO is a great communicator, except for just this one time. I beg to differ. I seems as though your communication skills as a couple has never really been tested before now. And now that they have, your SO is failing. You choose to look at it as this being the exception. To outsiders, it looks more like he has failed at communicating 100% of the time when it really matters.
Also, when all this come out, and it will, Brother, SIL and her family will forgive your SO because they are family and they will say he had good reasons for lying. YOU will not get the same benefit. They have no allegiance to you. And it doesn’t matter that you are an unwilling participant. SIL will only remember that she caught you in a years long lie and that is the narrative she will hang on to. I hope the feeling of being on the outside during all this Christening business doesn’t bother you because that’s where the SIL and her family will keep you. And SO isn’t going to do a damn thing to help you get back on the “inside” of family gatherings.
WTAF? I would definitely not attend the Christening.
Stop texting and wait until you are in person to have this conversation. It sounds like it might be a conversation of whether you stay together or not so it’s better just waiting and cooling off on both sides and calmly discussing it in person.
Right? It’d be a cold day in hell before I’d even think about going. These people sound insufferable.
OP, you have stated one of the points in favor of your relationship is that your SO is a great communicator, except for just this one time. I beg to differ. I seems as though your communication skills as a couple has never really been tested before now. And now that they have, your SO is failing. You choose to look at it as this being the exception. To outsiders, it looks more like he has failed at communicating 100% of the time when it really matters.
Also, when all this come out, and it will, Brother, SIL and her family will forgive your SO because they are family and they will say he had good reasons for lying. YOU will not get the same benefit. They have no allegiance to you. And it doesn’t matter that you are an unwilling participant. SIL will only remember that she caught you in a years long lie and that is the narrative she will hang on to. I hope the feeling of being on the outside during all this Christening business doesn’t bother you because that’s where the SIL and her family will keep you. And SO isn’t going to do a damn thing to help you get back on the “inside” of family gatherings.
I see what you are saying about the communication skills. Before when we have had arguments, we communicate in a certain way and we do have a list of “rules” to follow. Those arguments all seem minor to this one now. The rules we drafted up seem to have gone out the window this time. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that his family is the issue. He seems to feel really defensive this time.
I plan to talk to him on Saturday when I see him again or on the phone if we can agree to a phone call.
For the person that asked, yes he is on LinkedIn with his current job. They could easily google him and find out. But they aren’t big social media and internet users.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that his family is the issue. He seems to feel really defensive this time.
So, to this - I think straight out of the gate, this is normal. I'll throw him a bone on this. I think most of us would be defensive of our family if we felt they were being criticized. I also suspect that he's defensive because he knows you're right. But he can't admit it yet. Are you possibly the first person to call him out on this kind of issue with his family?
What I hope - that he takes these next few days to think this over and when you do see each other, he's come around somewhat and realizes that you are right and that what he's doing is 1- wrong in and of itself and 2- incredibly unfair to you. And that he'll be in a better spot to talk this out and come to some realistic solutions. He may not be 100% turned around yet, but if you see some backing down and some realization on his part that this just isn't right- then I'll take that as progress.
If- 4 days later he STILL is digging his heels into the mud and it still trying to gaslight you - well, then you'll have more information to help YOU decide what to do next/ where this goes.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that his family is the issue. He seems to feel really defensive this time.
So, to this - I think straight out of the gate, this is normal. I'll throw him a bone on this. I think most of us would be defensive of our family if we felt they were being criticized. I also suspect that he's defensive because he knows you're right. But he can't admit it yet. Are you possibly the first person to call him out on this kind of issue with his family?
What I hope - that he takes these next few days to think this over and when you do see each other, he's come around somewhat and realizes that you are right and that what he's doing is 1- wrong in and of itself and 2- incredibly unfair to you. And that he'll be in a better spot to talk this out and come to some realistic solutions. He may not be 100% turned around yet, but if you see some backing down and some realization on his part that this just isn't right- then I'll take that as progress.
If- 4 days later he STILL is digging his heels into the mud and it still trying to gaslight you - well, then you'll have more information to help YOU decide what to do next/ where this goes.
Yeah, I’m going to just give him some time on this. On our list of rules (please forgive me that it sounds odd that we have written fighting rules; he’s German and everything is very orderly) it says that we need to give each other time to really think about things if that is needed.
I can say that when he had medical issues, I talked to my family about it and he was upset about that. So I get the defensiveness.
I’ll see what happens on Saturday, but there isn’t that much time to talk alone. I’m going fishing for the day by myself (by choice because I love alone time) and then meeting up with his dad and him because they live in the area. I’m not sure how much alone time I’ll have with him.
I’ll just sit and think about it all and see what happens. That’s the best I can do right now.
Good luck klingklang77. I’ve read this whole thread and almost started many responses, but ultimately deleted. I don’t know much about German family dynamics so I feel inept at saying much there. But, reading about how his brother acts sent up some warning bells to me. He’s worried about appearances, had the right job, the right wife, his brother must have the right job and your SO willingly allows himself to be controlled by his brother’s worries to a disturbing degree. The christening push back makes me wonder if there’s more going on here under the surface.
I’m not sure your SO will see this situation the same as you do depending on how deep this all goes. You may find in the future more ways the brother controls the strings. I’m not saying it’s a recipe for a break up at all. I do think you need to mark your line in the sand and be proud of them. Be a voice to him of what you find acceptable to help him see things in a different way. Challenge him to do so - why hide, why do you care what brother thinks, etc. Pay attention. Ask questions. Ask more questions.
Post by klingklang77 on Aug 21, 2019 7:38:38 GMT -5
I just want to thank everyone for their advice. I really appreciate it. I don’t want to be all “you don’t know my life”. I’m definitely going to pay more attention to this.
Well, I might consider cutting my fishing day a little short, TBH. I feel like this is something that really needs to be discussed and if Saturday will be the only day for awhile, then you need to make it a priority. Trust me, I get wanting alone time! But depending on what his schedule is, if you all don't talk this weekend - this may just fester and fester.
Post by foundmylazybum on Aug 21, 2019 8:08:58 GMT -5
When thinking through this and discussing it with him, try to only work on one problem at a time ( even though they are somewhat interconnected).
The first problem is the lying, and his/family request that you lie.
The solution for you is: you dont. It makes you uncomfortable and really actually puts you in this convoluted story telling bind that just doesnt work.
Next you can work from what to do based on this decision. What is reasonable to you both.
It's not really reasonable to continue to put the problem on you (like come on..if you weren't there the lie would have still happened so what are they talking about?)
Its unreasonable to stop inviting you places to continue the lie. That's baby stuff.
Its unreasonable to blame you for their issue and bind
You will support but not be the person to use.
Their being upset and or disappointed at your decision is actually their problem.
Also, some of this "they are German" stuff seems like nonsense and is contradictory. "He loves written rules"
And yet..he seems to be willing to break rules to suit his needs. I'd stop buying into some of this.
He is German but he might also just be acting a fool right now, regardless of culture.
Post by sparkythelawyer on Aug 21, 2019 9:52:23 GMT -5
Dude. This is not about him being German. Many many Germans manage to interact in this world without a fucking handbook.
I'll bet you those rules are heavily favored to his benefit.
And I've got 50 monopoly dollars that he doesn't want the multiple addresses coming out because he has something actually worth hiding there, and working in IT ain't it. He has a girlfriend or a wife there. Like, Nobody goes to these lengths over IT. They just don't.
This is a blessing in disguise for you. See that for what it is.
I am German and I like rules and order, but we do not have a written handbook of how things are to be done. My BFF of more than 20 years is even more German than me and they also do not have written rules.
The only written thing H and I have is a chore chart, because otherwise he "doesn't see the mess" and won't get off his ass to do something without me nagging and I don't want to be that person. But that is about H and not about being German.
This guy sounds like he has some serious self esteem issues and is catering to a bunch of assholes under the guise of making himself feel/look better. I'd cut your losses and move on. I've dated two guys with fairly significant self esteem issues in the past and it never ends well.
I also want to know what is their plan when the big secret comes out. Because it will happen one day or another.
I would point out to your bf that SIL and her parents are just an excuse. The real issue is that his own brother is ashamed of what he does for a living. It is unacceptable for your bf and his parents to let his brother walk all over him. The brother needs to get over it. This is really dysfunctional. What will be the next demand? Do you OP, have a career that is deemed acceptable to the brother? If not, what will happen?
This thread is funny to me, only because my dad lies about what my brother does all the time. He always tells people he’s a manager of X Dept in big box store. He’s a cashier in big box store. But the difference here is that my dad, despite his own issues with it, would never expect me to lie if asked. But around other family members, he makes sure to bring it up first. So, while your BFs brother can say whatever he wants, it’s ridiculous that your Bf would himself lie or force YOU to lie. I would say you’re not going to purposely bring it up, but if asked, you’re not lying.