I’m going to go adopt another dog or officially sign up to foster because of this thread. My god.
I may just go to the dog cafe today. All profits go to rescue, and all dogs are adoptable. The owner has rescued at least 20 on his farm. Forget crazy cat lady. Crazy dog lady on a farm (near to costco and TJ) is my dream.
OK that’s just rude. I bought my dog. There’s nothing wrong with that as far as I’m concerned. You are very welcome to disagree. There’s nothing wrong with the vast majority of rescues. That doesn’t change the fact that there are some bad actors in that community just as much if there are bad actors among breeders. I didn’t think that we had to agree with each other and I still don’t, but I’m citing sources and legitimately interested in parsing out the ethics of dealing with animal overpopulation. Calling names is uncalled for.
Ok so let's say that 5% of breeders are legitimately good. And then there's 5% of rescues that suck and should be shut down.
So we're all in agreement. But you did not purchase a dog from that 5% and the 95% of rescues that are good are just trying to find homes for the millions of animals that will otherwise be put down.
If you want to help reduce the overpopulation issue, buying from a breeder ain't doing it.
Assuming that’s the case and I did buy from a bad breeder, which I’m willing to concede I may have done in hindsight, given the lack of regulation how am I as a consumer supposed to know that? This is part of why I think breeders as well as rescues should be consistently licensed. I researched breeders after considering multiple rescues that didn’t work for me and not having things work out with my local shelter. As a consumer the only thing I was able to do was exactly what I did: research and make the best choice presented to me given what I wanted and what was avaliable to me.
Post by basilosaurus on Oct 1, 2019 22:22:42 GMT -5
It's my morning. I have all day for this.
How are you supposed to know without regulations? A fucking google search. Your research was bullshit and you know it. You looked for what you wanted and found it.
Post by cattledogkisses on Oct 1, 2019 22:23:14 GMT -5
I can’t take talk of overpopulation concerns seriously coming from someone who has no qualms about buying a dog from a probable mill that’s churning out around 100 puppies every year.
I’m going to go adopt another dog or officially sign up to foster because of this thread. My god.
I may just go to the dog cafe today. All profits go to rescue, and all dogs are adoptable. The owner has rescued at least 20 on his farm. Forget crazy cat lady. Crazy dog lady on a farm (near to costco and TJ) is my dream.
Chupa chups is done here, right?
I mean I’m still awake and reading various stuff on my phone but I think I’ve been saying for a while now that none of us are going to agree on this. You all seem to be as one opinion and I’m of another. Not a big deal. If anyone has sources I can read to counter the information I cited I’d be interested to read those but none of you were under any obligation to keep this going.
How are you supposed to know without regulations? A fucking google search. Your research was bullshit and you know it. You looked for what you wanted and found it.
I did Google search. I did so after first googling what I should look for signs of reputability and asking my vet about the same thing. And I did that after going through and eliminating several rescues that I unfortunately couldn’t go through and having the failed attempt with the SPCA. At the time the woman I bought my dog from checked all the boxes. That she doesn’t now several years later isn’t something that’s really in my control.
Post by basilosaurus on Oct 1, 2019 22:32:03 GMT -5
JFC. It may be my morning, but I've already hit my limit. If all of us disagree with one of you, maybe you might be wrong. I'm going to go back to wishing for a concussion.
I did Google search. I did so after first googling what I should look for signs of reputability and asking my vet about the same thing. And I did that after going through and eliminating several rescues that I unfortunately couldn’t go through and having the failed attempt with the SPCA. At the time the woman I bought my dog from checked all the boxes. That she doesn’t now several years later isn’t something that’s really in my control.
Minus the fact that she was breeding designer muts.
I really had nothing to tell me that was a problem at the time. When I got my dog doodles were at the height of popularity and my vet said that they were fine. I’m still uncertain of whether I think that’s worse than purebreds. I have to question the idea of continuation of those lines given the history of inbreeding practices, but now that I’ve been told the health issues reputation isn’t accurate I’m looking for articles to help me rethink my opinion on that.
Post by foundmylazybum on Oct 1, 2019 22:43:16 GMT -5
Something that doesn't make sense is that you believed that rescues weren't reputable, so instead..you went and got a mutt that you believed was..not? (bc your brother had trouble with a mutt from a rescue) from a crappy breeder.
Overall, there were some logic fails and mistakes made here.
I'm sure your dog is very cute and nice and whatever. But..you got the dog bc you wanted what you wanted right then.
Not because of these fucking higher purpose arguments you keep pushing forward.
Just say you got a mutt doodle bc you wanted one and, honestly this whole thing isnt important to you.
Well you don't know that a puppy will grow up to be good with kids either.
Anyway, let me give you an example of breeding to further/better the breed. This is Ernie. Ernie is an exotic shorthair, an officially recognized breed of cat that is essentially a shorthaired Persian, known as "Zot" for short. Ernie was bred in Russia and sold to a breeder in NJ. The NJ breeder chose not to use him in her breeding program and promptly had him neutered. Why? He doesn't meet breed standard. Oh, his head is absolutely perfect for a Zot. Low, rounded ears, round eyes, flat face, round, large head, short, dense fur. But the rest of his body does not conform. See, zots are supposed to have cobby bodies, like Persians. Short, muscular, compact, dense. Ernie has a long, lean body and long legs, just like a regular house cat. I've joked with people that he wouldn't make perfect kittens and they roll their eyes - but it's true. There's no shortage of kittens in the world, and if a breeder thinks a cat will produce kittens that won't even be up to breed standard, let alone pass on a desirable trait, like a color pattern, eye shape, or personality feature, they shouldn't do it.
Ernie also has a sweet and funny personality. He was given to a well-respected rescuer and that's how I ended up finding and adopting him. Though he is still purebred, he's in perfect health, and cost me $275. He also sleeps right next to me every night. You can get any pet you want from rescue if you are willing to search and wait - puppies, kittens, purebreds, mutts, large, small, even exotic pets.
And yes, requiring people to spay and neuter pets is a fine idea, but the enforcement is difficult and expensive.
Thank you for providing such a specific, good example. Based on what’s been said here I will look at rescues again next dog. I’m assuming based on this thread that there’s a good chance the requirements regarding visits after adoption or less onerous than they were when I got my dog. Or at least I’m hoping so because it sounds like that might have been area specific based on what several posters said about their volunteer experiences.
I wonder if something could be done at the local level regarding dog licensing re: enforcement? In my area the one regulation we have is that rabies shot evidence has to be provided to get a license for your dog. Licenses are technically required, but the reason people get them is that you have to have one to be allowed in any of the local dog parks. I admit it would be hard to enforce. I really think the crux of the issue with human behavior though. I think I mentioned him already but there’s a guy down the street from me who just lets his dog get repeatedly pregnant and throws his hands up and drop the puppies off at the SPCA every time. Several neighbors have called animal control but there’s nothing that says he can’t in local law apparently. That is what I think of when I think of backyard breeders. People who just can’t be bothered to get their pets fixed.
So get the local fucking law changed! JFC this is not rocket science. Many cities have stronger laws. Get with your neighbors, friends, family and get everyone up the ass of their city council rep and get the damn law in YOUR city changed.
p.s. What you "think" of as a BYB is incorrect. You keep saying that's what you "think" but haven't acknowledged that what you *think* is wrong.
Thank you for the article. I’m still considering it. At the time my vet was of the opinion that mixed breeds are healthier. I’m inclined to believe there is some evidence for that based on what I’m currently reading. Here’s the link if you’re interested. www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data
My general takeaways leaning towards I should consider purebred dogs equally with mixed in the future. Again, I appreciate the food for thought. Thanks.
Post by foundmylazybum on Oct 1, 2019 22:52:34 GMT -5
I keep on thinking of the shelter in my old town putting out calls daily saying "we need 3 runs open by 5 pm or we will have to euthanize."
Or my friend who has fostered a sweet, older, larger dog for a year...
Or my dogs, the one I adopted after he had been turned in the first time with his litter and the second time bc..who knows, and my tiny, amazing tater tot who was turned in for..whatever? But we just adopted them and moved right on.
Wtf to this pedantic conversation about regulations.
Go to your local goddamn shelter and ask to see a dog on the euthanasia list.
Realize its usually not anything wrong with them but time on floor.
If you think rescues are too strict..stop believing shelter dogs are shit and go look there. There are great dogs there and the "regulations" will fit your property needs.
Something that doesn't make sense is that you believed that rescues weren't reputable, so instead..you went and got a mutt (bc your brother had trouble with a mutt from a rescue) from a crappy breeder.
Overall, there were some logic fails and mistakes made here.
I'm sure your dog is very cute and nice and whatever. But..you got the dog bc you wanted what you wanted right then.
Not because of these fucking higher purpose arguments you keep pushing forward.
Just say you god a mutt doodle bc you wanted one and, honestly this whole thing isnt important to you.
That way we can all move on.
I did not believe the rescues I encountered in my dog search were unethical. I believe based on multiple news articles I’ve read, some I’ve cited here, that there are some bad actors in the rescue community. My problem with the rescues I talk to during my dog search was more to do with their requirements vs what I thought was reasonable and was willing to deal with.
Each of the rescues that I applied with had strong preferences for couples without kids . The dealbreaker was that all of them had a requirements that I gave them permission to do random home inspections AFTER the adoption. The requirement periods range from six months to three years and all of them reserved the right to take the dog back as they saw fit during that period. I understand the desire to in sure that the animals they place are well taken care of, but that was a hard no for me. I understand that people don’t like to think of their animals as property, but that’s what they are under the law and I did not want to adopt for any amount, even free, being subject to something that onerous. Several of the posters here have stated that the rescues they volunteer with or not like this so the next time I get a dog I will see if this is still the case and if it is start looking at rescues in other states in case it’s a regional thing. I can’t guarantee that’s what I’ll go with because I have no idea what my circumstances will be the next time I get a dog, but I will certainly take another hard look at it.
I have no problem with waiting periods for dogs. As I stated in a previous post I waited almost a year on a waitlist to get mine.
I’ll chime in on page 8, and only because I was just watching our rescue mutts playing together and it made me happy 😃
I’ve always had multiple dogs - 2 currently and 3 at the most. We adopted a rottie lab mix from the shelter and he’s our favorite “breed” out of all of them. When his elderly pack brothers died and it was time for a new dog, we decided to look for a similar mix. We applied with a rottie rescue and frankly I was annoyed at the essay I had to write and the home visit, but we were looking for the right puppy, not just A puppy. The foster mom chose a pup from the one clearly mixed litter she had that she thought would fit into our family (incidentally the one that looked more like a St. Bernard than a rottie) and she explained why she chose that one for us. She was totally right. The home visit was to make sure we weren’t looking for dogs to raise mean and that we actually could handle ourselves. And we had to wait a month after meeting him because they insisted he be neutered first (4 or 5 months old). I think we paid $200-ish? And he’s definitely more Doberman than rottie, but then again, those “breeds” are brothers. (Full circle to labradoodle ⭕️)
Thank you for the article. I’m still considering it. At the time my vet was of the opinion that mixed breeds are healthier. I’m inclined to believe there is some evidence for that based on what I’m currently reading. Here’s the link if you’re interested. www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data
My general takeaways leaning towards I should consider purebred dogs equally with mixed in the future. Again, I appreciate the food for thought. Thanks.
I’ll chime in on page 8, and only because I was just watching our rescue mutts playing together and it made me happy 😃
I’ve always had multiple dogs - 2 currently and 3 at the most. We adopted a rottie lab mix from the shelter and he’s our favorite “breed” out of all of them. When his elderly pack brothers died and it was time for a new dog, we decided to look for a similar mix. We applied with a rottie rescue and frankly I was annoyed at the essay I had to write and the home visit, but we were looking for the right puppy, not just A puppy. The foster mom chose a pup from the one clearly mixed litter she had that she thought would fit into our family (incidentally the one that looked more like a St. Bernard than a rottie) and she explained why she chose that one for us. She was totally right. The home visit was to make sure we weren’t looking for dogs to raise mean and that we actually could handle ourselves. And we had to wait a month after meeting him because they insisted he be neutered first (4 or 5 months old). I think we paid $200-ish? And he’s definitely more Doberman than rottie, but then again, those “breeds” are brothers. (Full circle to labradoodle ⭕️)
That’s fantastic!For what it’s worth I’m not against home visits. Just continued random ones after I’ve adopted which is what I encountered as a requirement
The first major study of hybrid vigor (the term you're going to search) showed that genetic symptoms showed up equally in purebred and mutts. news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=29634
Thank you for the article. I’m still considering it. At the time my vet was of the opinion that mixed breeds are healthier. I’m inclined to believe there is some evidence for that based on what I’m currently reading. Here’s the link if you’re interested. www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data
My general takeaways leaning towards I should consider purebred dogs equally with mixed in the future. Again, I appreciate the food for thought. Thanks.
This is a fucking blog.
[
I’m sorry did you think I had a JSTOR account to try and research the stuff? I was just providing a link to what I’m currently reading about it after this thread. Don’t read it if you don’t like the source.
The first major study of hybrid vigor (the term you're going to search) showed that genetic symptoms showed up equally in purebred and mutts. news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=29634
Thank you for the article. I’m still considering it. At the time my vet was of the opinion that mixed breeds are healthier. I’m inclined to believe there is some evidence for that based on what I’m currently reading. Here’s the link if you’re interested. www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data
My general takeaways leaning towards I should consider purebred dogs equally with mixed in the future. Again, I appreciate the food for thought. Thanks.
I’m sorry did you think I had a JSTOR account to try and research the stuff? I was just providing a link to what I’m currently reading about it after this thread. Don’t read it if you don’t like the source.
Did you forget which board you're on? Blogs are not an acceptable source here, and neither is the "don't read it if you don't like it."
The first major study of hybrid vigor (the term you're going to search) showed that genetic symptoms showed up equally in purebred and mutts. news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=29634
“Results—Genetic disorders differed in expression. No differences in expression of 13 genetic disorders were detected between purebred dogs and mixed-breed dogs (ie, hip dysplasia, hypo- and hyperadrenocorticism, cancers, lens luxation, and patellar luxation). Purebred dogs were more likely to have 10 genetic disorders, including dilated cardiomyopathy, elbow dysplasia, cataracts, and hypothyroidism. Mixed-breed dogs had a greater probability of ruptured cranial cruciate ligament.”
So this is to say that it depends on the disorder whether a purebred or a mixed breed is more likely to have it? To me that supports what I was starting to think, that next time I should give equal consideration to purebreds. I’m also thinking I should definitely have my dog genetically tested, but I believe the point is that the genetics can be a problem either way
I’m sorry did you think I had a JSTOR account to try and research the stuff? I was just providing a link to what I’m currently reading about it after this thread. Don’t read it if you don’t like the source.
Did you forget which board you're on? Blogs are not an acceptable source here, and neither is the "don't read it if you don't like it."
I cannot remember the last time I saw you enforce that. I’m looking for legitimate sources. From what I can tell that blog is explaining the study you linked me to. Which while interesting, would not redirect me to the full study.
Something that doesn't make sense is that you believed that rescues weren't reputable, so instead..you went and got a mutt that you believed was..not? (bc your brother had trouble with a mutt from a rescue) from a crappy breeder.
Overall, there were some logic fails and mistakes made here.
I'm sure your dog is very cute and nice and whatever. But..you got the dog bc you wanted what you wanted right then.
Not because of these fucking higher purpose arguments you keep pushing forward.
Just say you got a mutt doodle bc you wanted one and, honestly this whole thing isnt important to you.
I’m going to just repeat foundmylazybum - just admit that you don’t really give a fuck about pet overpopulation - you wanted what you wanted and you didn’t care that you were contributing to the problem. You still don’t care because you would “probably” not revisit the puppy mill you’ve already supported...but, I mean, if she’s got a cute puppy that you want again, then all bets are off.
I’m going to just repeat foundmylazybum - just admit that you don’t really give a fuck about pet overpopulation - you wanted what you wanted and you didn’t care that you were contributing to the problem. You still don’t care because you would “probably” not revisit the puppy mill you’ve already supported...but, I mean, if she’s got a cute puppy that you want again, then all bets are off.
Finally someone who can read. Yeah I would do it again if I wanted another dog, found the right one, and encountered the same ridiculous restrictive bullshit I did the first time I tried to go through rescues. The economic reality is that pets are property. I’d love to adopt one but that means if a rescue doesn’t want to play ball, I have the ability to purchase. But clearly, I don’t give a shit about overpopulation. That’s obviously why I paid to have my dog fixed and ...oh.
I am not being high minded with any of this. I hope more rescues move towards less restriction and open adoptions like in the Wapo article I just linked. In my opinion if you don’t accept the economic realities surrounding pet ownership, you must not really care about overpopulation either. If you did you might see that is part of the equation and start asking why more people aren’t adopting and how to remove those barriers, or question how it might be possible for a small number of rescues to operate on ethically and in a way that provides an economic incentive to bad breeders, guess what? You’re also part of the problem.
You.financed.a.puppymill.operation. You are a contributing factor, but if you like to tell yourself these lies at night to help you sleep, then go for it.
That’s fine. I’ll accept this. It’s still irrelevant in hindsight. I had nothing to indicate at the time that that was what was going on. I still don’t have much to indicate that it is now, but assuming it is based on the 14 litters per year which is excessive, it still doesn’t change my mind. The problem is overpopulation, and it’s a very serious problem. I still fail to see how rescues, which are even less regulated than breeders to the beat of my knowledge are making a dent in that. So given that we both care about the overpopulation issue, what other than regulation of both and owners would you suggest?
Stepped away from this for a board meeting... but seriously? Every pet that has come out of a shelter or rescue group, since 2001 in California, has to be spayed and neutered by law (Hayden's Law). We literally are one full generation of pet ownership into this. Every single pet I have placed since 2002 - when I started in rescue - has been spayed or neutered prior to going home with their adopter. They are the end of their genetic line, they are not adding anything else into the mix. They are not reproducing.
There are significantly less bad actors in the rescue world than there are in the breeding world - it's not even a fair comparison. Would you like to peruse my local Craigslist? These are backyard breeders: inlandempire.craigslist.org/d/pets/search/pet None of those pets are being purchased on a spay/neuter contract. They can - and often do - reproduce. Guess who can't? MY RESCUE PLACEMENTS.
As for the property discussion - this is my current foster puppy. He was evidence in an animal abuse case where his owner was caught biting and choking him on video in a family member's home who called the police. His property to do with as he sees fit?
What can you do to reduce overpopulation? Don’t pay someone to breed. Full stop.
Everything else (genetic characteristics, home visits, property law, etc) are separate issues. If you truly refuse rescues entirely because of a few bad eggs, go to a shelter. So don’t choose this particular moral high ground to offset your decision, because you paid someone to increase the population!