will she or won't she, divorce edition

[mpc]

I posted about 2 months asking about divorce and how it affected your kids. I appreciated the responses so much, thank you. I'm writing back with some updates. It gets long, sorry.

About a month ago, I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He was shocked and pretty upset. He asked me essentially to give him 3 months before I made a final decision. He framed it as it being for my benefit, but I think he was scrambling for more time to fix things and change my mind. Regardless, I did agree. I think I was emotionally drained from making the decision and then saying it out loud. Being able to pause the process before jumping into moving out and custody debates and everything else seemed like not the worst idea in the moment. Also, he's dangling in front of me this idea that things could be fixed and maybe I was desperate enough I wanted to believe it.

He has been so kind and loving this past month. And I have been saying all the things I was scared to say because at this point what's the worse that can happen. We both wrote down what I've been calling our "lists of grievances", and we've been emailing back and forth our thoughts on everything. Writing it down has been so beneficial. It's been cathartic in a way to be able to get it all out. I have time to think about what I want to say, and I can finish my thoughts because we don't get derailed in the conversation. And then I have time to reflect on his responses. We've probably had more real conversations in this past month than in the previous year and a half of therapy. 

He's been saying a lot of the right things, yes that's a problem, yes I need to work on it, etc. But then an example came up in real life last week (he got in a verbal fight with another parent at basketball practice) and I was so disappointed in how everything went down. Not just the fight in the heat of the moment, because I know we can all lose our temper if pushed far enough, but how he has handled it after the fact, after I've talked to him about my feelings on the matter. He tried to remove our son from the team, he chewed out the coach in repeated text rants over the next few days (and the coach is a friend... and this is one of my complaints is that he is constantly burning bridges with the few friends he has left, but then he complains he is lonely and has no one and poor him.) He swears none of it was his fault and he is the victim and why can't I support him? He says I don't have his back and he doesn't feel he has a safe place with me and that is why he pulled away and started treating me so poorly. But if I could be that safe place for him again, then he could trust me again and then he wouldn't shut down and ignore me for days/weeks on end.

He's out of town for work this week, so I've been home alone with the kids. Yes, it's harder. But I don't find myself missing him all that much. I do notice that I feel compelled to text him with all the little benign stuff that happens through day. How I figured out how to charge my car at work or that the pharmacist was completely rude to me. That the 4 year old has been an angel but the 6 year old is going to put me in an early grave. Who else wants to hear all that every day?

I don't know what I'm asking here. I know you all can't really decide for me. I think I am just desperate to talk to someone. I have two friends IRL that know what's going on, but I feel like I can't dump on them every day. Within the family I learned that my SIL now knows, and she wants to get together to talk with me this weekend. But I know it's going to be from a "you have to save your marriage" perspective. My therapist got COVID so we had to push back my appointment by 2 weeks. Anyway, thank you for being a place I can share. If you have thoughts or even just support I could use it. 

(PS can you tell that I'm a Libra? Can't make a decision to save my life! lolsob)

[bittybomb]

I don't think you need to decide right now. I think it's completely fair not to hold yourself to the 3 month deadline. I think you can take your time and see if this is something you want to continue to work on or not. And if today you want to continue to work on it, but tomorrow you realize you're done, that's ok too.

We get only one life.

[icedcoffee]

Is the basketball situation your biggest complaint about him? I'm asking because this sounds like how my H's anxiety manifests and in some ways mine. We both started Lexapro and it's so much better.

If you have other complaints though then ignore me. LOL

[maudefindlay]

He sounds like a lot of work and this reads very much like you want out. I think your inner voice is correct and you can make this decision. Relationships cannot exist on empty promises.

[donutsmakemegonuts]

I am also a Libra, so I get it lol. I think the whole "I need you to be a safe space for me" is crap. That sounds like an excuse so he can act however he wants towards others and then put the blame on you. It's his responsibility to be able to handle his emotions, not yours. Sure, feeling comfortable enough with someone to share your feelings and have them be their "safe space" is one thing, but saying he does that because you aren't doing something for him emotionally?? Screw that. Get your life together sir. Go get some therapy and work out those issues if you want to be supported. I'm not sure how all this helps you with your decision, but just know that someone who plays the victim all the time is not going to change overnight, no matter how much he is saying or doing the right things right now.

[shopgirl07]

It sounds like he’s a world class gaslighter. He needs some serious therapy to work on himself before he can be a half way decent partner. One of the hallmarks of gaslighting is making people doubt themselves. You seem like you were clear eyed in your decision to divorce and here you are, doubting yourself. And of course deflecting blame is another gaslighting hallmark.

[noodleoo]

Do you want to meet with your sister in law? That would be a hell no from me! The marriage is between you and H, no way I would meet with his sister to discuss it. I’d reply simply “this is between H and I, I will not be discussing it with you”.

[Saudade]

When I first told my exH that I wanted a divorce he did the same thing...and it was fine for a few months...but he slid right back into his old ways. I also struggled with not texting him all the mundane things after our divorce.

I will tell you though, getting divorced was the best thing. Yes, it's HARD being a single parent. But I am so much happier being a single parent without him than a married parent with him. He's a great person but we just don't work together. My saving grace is that my exH and I are on the same page as each other with regards to parenting. We have each other's back there and it's nice because we text about their behavior and work on it together. It's way more functional now than it was when we were married.

Please don't hesitate to reach out. It can feel lonely when you're going through it.

[smock]

It sounds like you can't disagree with him without him "punishing" you by ignoring you or claiming his behavior is your fault. You also mention holding back things that you were scared to say before now. That really does not sound like a healthy dynamic.

Maybe he will change. It takes time, obviously, and there will be slip-ups like the basketball thing. But maybe you're done and you don't want to wait around for him to change.

You're being honest with him. Now is the time to pay attention to his actions, not just his words. And you don't have to know what you want to do today. It's hard to feel in limbo, but collecting more information might help you feel confident about the decision you ultimately make.

[krystee]

It sounds like he is holding you responsible for his emotional outbursts. I don’t like that at all.

I would be 1,000% horrified if my husband got into a fight with a parent and a coach, AND it continued beyond the moment, after he’d had time to cool down. It is so inappropriate and horrible behavior to model for the kids.

If I was already one foot out the door, aggressive behavior like that would be likely to push the second foot out too.

[scm1011]

Big hugs, I've been thinking of you and wondering how things were going.

That all sounds so hard. I think its great that you've been able to open up and thoughtfully share you honest feelings, and that he's done the same. But...that real life example sounds like he's gaslighting you. A verbal fight at a kids sporting event isn't great (but agree, depending on the situation sometimes things happen), but the fact that instead of reflecting on his actions/overreaction he followed up with repeated text rants is obviously concerning. I can't imagine a situation where that is the right way to proceed, and his doubling-down with poor me and blaming you for his actions is a huge red flag.

I'm not sure a month of being kind and loving (when he knows he's about to lose everything!) is enough to undo years of poor treatment. My parents separated more times than I can count growing up and my dad was always on his best behavior in the aftermath of my mother leaving with us kids. Only you can decide that. And I get it on having someone to share the daily minutia of life with - I had those same thoughts when my DH and I were at a breaking point years ago. But that alone is not a reason to stay.

I hope you're able to gain clarity in the coming weeks / months. Thinking of you!

[livinitup]

Do you have your financial records in order? He sounds like the type who is super sweet and accommodating while he is getting what he wants but vicious when he blows up. Being aware of bank account #s, credit card balances, income/expenses, health insurance, premiums, etc is part of a healthy marriage, too.

Your H is someone who alienates friends and then complains of being lonely. That’s who he is and it’s not going to change much. That is the consequence of his own behavior and it is nothing you can change. It’s not on you the explain, cajole, point out, or really “get” him to change in any way. Or really to get hurt feelings about. You don’t have to divorce him but you do have to let go of any hope that he isn’t going to be exactly who he is.

[mpc]

Jun 8, 2023 11:37:33 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Is the basketball situation your biggest complaint about him? I'm asking because this sounds like how my H's anxiety manifests and in some ways mine. We both started Lexapro and it's so much better.

If you have other complaints though then ignore me. LOL

My biggest issue is that when he gets upset or depressed he withdraws and shuts down for days or weeks. He won't talk to me, doesn't even make eye contact. He will sit through dinner with me and the kids without saying anything. It makes me feel like I don't even exist in my own home. He went through a phase where he would go take a 2 hour nap every evening as soon as I got home with the kids. He'll ignore me all day, then get in bed and not even say goodnight, but then later complain that I'm not having sex with him often enough. 

[sugarbear1]

I can literally ditto every single thing Saudade said. I would add that my now-partner and I joke about texting the benign minutiae every day and we are grateful for the outlet, so I get that.

Of course you don't need to make a decision until you're ready and only you know when that is. That basketball situation alone would have put me over the edge. My personal feeling was that once I had said (or in my case, even thought) the words, I could not take them back.

I am so much happier on the other side of my divorce.

ETA: RE: your post about shutting down. I remember saying to my then-H that if I was going to be lonely, I would rather just be alone.  That behavior is so unfair. Have you addressed it in therapy? Does he have a plan in place for what happens next time he feels down and wants to withdraw? What is that teaching your children about healthy relationships?

[pandorica]

Jun 8, 2023 11:44:03 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Do you want to meet with your sister in law? That would be a hell no from me! The marriage is between you and H, no way I would meet with his sister to discuss it. I’d reply simply “this is between H and I, I will not be discussing it with you”.

Yes, this! I went through a divorce (no kids) and my SIL called me selfish and childish and tried to guilt me into staying. So I could just be biased but I'd be wary meeting anyone in his family.

[waverly]

My first thought was anger management. Someone that aggressive that can't manage their emotions....
Upset/ despressed is another example of not being able to handle emotions.

My DH did that when I first met him because his therapist told him to do that rather than blow up. But with practice, and therapy, he has been much more likely to be able to talk through his emotions without shutting down or blowing up. Not perfect, but so so so much better.

I don't think I can live with the level of emotional swings. I, also a Libra, need a lot of peace in my life. And that sounds very exhausting and dramatic for no actual reason. Most of us handle our emotions in childhood learning all these skills as we grow up.

[mpc]

Jun 8, 2023 11:44:03 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Do you want to meet with your sister in law? That would be a hell no from me! The marriage is between you and H, no way I would meet with his sister to discuss it. I’d reply simply “this is between H and I, I will not be discussing it with you”.

At first I was all for it. But the more I think about it, the more I feel like who does she think she is that she thinks she needs to come intervene and show me the error of my ways?? In considering why there was part of me that wanted to talk to her, I realized that I'm just desperate to talk to anyone. Which is what led me back here to make this post lol. 

FWIW, I would've preferred no family be involved, but he shared with his brother because he needed someone to talk to. In that case I agree his need for support trumped my desire for privacy. The brother shared with his wife, and she's the one who wants to "help" me. 

[icedcoffee]

Jun 8, 2023 11:53:13 GMT -5 mpc said:

Jun 8, 2023 11:37:33 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Is the basketball situation your biggest complaint about him? I'm asking because this sounds like how my H's anxiety manifests and in some ways mine. We both started Lexapro and it's so much better.

If you have other complaints though then ignore me. LOL

My biggest issue is that when he gets upset or depressed he withdraws and shuts down for days or weeks. He won't talk to me, doesn't even make eye contact. He will sit through dinner with me and the kids without saying anything. It makes me feel like I don't even exist in my own home. He went through a phase where he would go take a 2 hour nap every evening as soon as I got home with the kids. He'll ignore me all day, then get in bed and not even say goodnight, but then later complain that I'm not having sex with him often enough. 

Ugh---I'm sorry.    It sounds to me he needs therapy and possibly and anti anxiety or depression med.  I'm guessing this is not the guy you married and he's in there somewhere, but it's also ok for you to decide you want to move on.  Sorry--that sound so uncomfortable. 

[rhian]

Just because the relationship *might* be fixable, doesn't mean you have to stick around to see if it actually is. Your post sounds like you are feeling pretty done with things, and that's okay, regardless of whether it's possible that you could remain married.

Re: feeling like he is the only one who cares about the random details of your day ... you might be surprised that friends/family members would be happy to hear about that sort of stuff. One of my best friends and I often text about that, and when other friends tell me random stories about their day, I'm also happy to hear it! If that's all you miss when he's gone, it doesn't sound like a reason to stay together to me.

Good luck!

[mpc]

Jun 8, 2023 11:52:41 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Do you have your financial records in order? He sounds like the type who is super sweet and accommodating while he is getting what he wants but vicious when he blows up. Being aware of bank account #s, credit card balances, income/expenses, health insurance, premiums, etc is part of a healthy marriage, too.

Your H is someone who alienates friends and then complains of being lonely. That’s who he is and it’s not going to change much. That is the consequence of his own behavior and it is nothing you can change. It’s not on you the explain, cajole, point out, or really “get” him to change in any way. Or really to get hurt feelings about. You don’t have to divorce him but you do have to let go of any hope that he isn’t going to be exactly who he is.

to your first paragraph - I am the one who handles all the finances, so I'm sure I know more about it all than he does. Not a bad idea to write things down though, anyway. 

to that second paragraph. That is... so well put and a perspective I haven't really been entertaining. So much energy on how to "fix" things. But maybe it needs to be, this will never change, can I live with it?

[dexteroni]

I'm sorry you're in this situation. You're right that no one can tell you what to do. But since you came here to talk about it, I will say that from what you've written, I'm hard pressed to see how staying together would benefit you. But I do see ways in which splitting up would benefit you. Your household would be less emotionally stressed, and you wouldn't have to walk on eggshells waiting for the next outburst or freeze out. I have a friend who left a marriage like this a few years ago. Yes, her weeks with the kids are more physical work, and she had to get a higher paying job that requires longer hours. But she and the kids can be themselves in their house without fear of a freakout, and she says that's priceless.

I would NOT meet with your SIL. A cheerleader (or bully) on his side holds no benefit to you. Your H can talk to his family all he wants, but they need to stay out of the middle of things.

As far as who you share the minutae of your day with - your friends. I'm not a parent, but I text dumb shit back and forth with my two BFFs all day. If you don't have anyone at that level now (many people don't, it's ok), maybe you can find some local mom groups and see if you click with anyone. I don't think I would remain in a volatile marriage just to have someone to text though. Good luck to you, I wish you the best and more happiness ahead!

[mpc]

Jun 8, 2023 12:12:35 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Jun 8, 2023 11:53:13 GMT -5 mpc said:

My biggest issue is that when he gets upset or depressed he withdraws and shuts down for days or weeks. He won't talk to me, doesn't even make eye contact. He will sit through dinner with me and the kids without saying anything. It makes me feel like I don't even exist in my own home. He went through a phase where he would go take a 2 hour nap every evening as soon as I got home with the kids. He'll ignore me all day, then get in bed and not even say goodnight, but then later complain that I'm not having sex with him often enough. 

Ugh---I'm sorry.    It sounds to me he needs therapy and possibly and anti anxiety or depression med.  I'm guessing this is not the guy you married and he's in there somewhere, but it's also ok for you to decide you want to move on.  Sorry--that sound so uncomfortable. 

He's been in therapy for years. And he is on anti-anxiety meds. Every so often he decides he's good and starts to reduce his dose and I think that's when things are the worst. But he says "I didn't used to need this. I don't want to be on it forever."

[dexteroni]

Jun 8, 2023 12:15:42 GMT -5 mpc said:

this will never change, can I live with it?

That is the question you need to answer, yes. Well, can you and *should* you. Since he promised and promised and promised to change and has failed to deliver on that, that's pretty much your answer regarding whether he ever will. Can you live with outbursts and alienating everyone around you and then being blamed for it? Should you have to? I don't think I could, emotionally or mentally. And I'd never advise a friend to sentence themselves to a life of that treatment. But it's something you need to decide for yourself. 

[icedcoffee]

Jun 8, 2023 12:18:32 GMT -5 mpc said:

Jun 8, 2023 12:12:35 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Ugh---I'm sorry.    It sounds to me he needs therapy and possibly and anti anxiety or depression med.  I'm guessing this is not the guy you married and he's in there somewhere, but it's also ok for you to decide you want to move on.  Sorry--that sound so uncomfortable. 

He's been in therapy for years. And he is on anti-anxiety meds. Every so often he decides he's good and starts to reduce his dose and I think that's when things are the worst. But he says "I didn't used to need this. I don't want to be on it forever."

Ugh---I'm sorry.  Tell him the people around him believe differently.   It's so hard when people don't see it themselves and you can't fix this for him so if he doesn't want to then leaving is the next best thing.  Hugs to you!

[maudefindlay]

So he's emotionally abusive to your kids too, because ignoring them (not speaking to them thru dinner making eye contact and taking a nap to avoid them right when you get home) is damaging to them.

[mags]

It sounds like you have made up your mind , but not ready to admit it.

[expectantsteelerfan]

Jun 8, 2023 12:26:28 GMT -5 dexteroni said:

Jun 8, 2023 12:15:42 GMT -5 mpc said:

this will never change, can I live with it?

That is the question you need to answer, yes. Well, can you and *should* you. Since he promised and promised and promised to change and has failed to deliver on that, that's pretty much your answer regarding whether he ever will. Can you live with outbursts and alienating everyone around you and then being blamed for it? Should you have to? I don't think I could, emotionally or mentally. And I'd never advise a friend to sentence themselves to a life of that treatment. But it's something you need to decide for yourself. 

Or even, do you want to?  It's ok to not want to do this anymore.  

[deadwing]

What do you get out of this relationship, OP?

[mpc]

Jun 8, 2023 12:36:23 GMT -5 deadwing said:

What do you get out of this relationship, OP?

My kids. I get to be with them every day. If they did not exist then I would be long gone. But there is a part of me that feels like I owe it to them to keep trying. How do I let go of that guilt if I give up?

[dochas]

Have you discussed that wanting you to "have his back" in situations where you think he is totally wrong is not reasonable? He is trying to say that being a safe place for him requires that you go along with him fighting with parents and coaches over a child's game and unilaterally deciding to remove your child from a team without any input from you OR the child who is playing the game. It sounds like he doesn't think his behavior is a problem and the real problem is your reaction to it. It also sounds like he does not think giving you the silent treatment is unacceptable. It sounds like he's saying that you should not push him to that point. That if you're more supportive he will not have to act that way.