Is everything just hard where you live?

[al dente]

You might like the book How To Raise An Adult. It's all about the pressures of kids/college/sports.

I think changing your lifestyle and outlook will get you more what you're looking for vs moving. Tbh I didn't finish the book I recommended lol but I don't feel a strong pull to those things. I mean I have friends that have their 7yr olds in $$$$ club sports or send their kids to "elite" 30k yr schools so I see it around me. But I just have no desire to participate so don't.

[fancynewbeesly]

I think one thing that helps eliminate some of the academic competition here is there are 3 elementary schools but only one middle and high school. Unless you go to a private Catholic school you are in the same middle school as everyone else. There are some very good magnet schools for high school but because the county is huge, most kids go to the middle and high schools. We only have religious private schools here.

The schools do have accelerated and gifted programs but at least it seems like from DDs peer group it isn’t competitive and sought after.

[waverly]

I think it’s valid for posters to say just opt out. And this is a great first step in thinking what is really important and having those conversations with your kids.

But I also think that can be very difficult especially with older kids because the message comes from their peers or they are internalizing a larger cultural message from their community. And that can cause anxiety and FOMO and other mental health issues. So I do see some worth in having your community match your personal values.

[erbear]

The thing is we all live in a bubble. The vast majority of the United States isn’t like this — can’t afford for it to be, and so it’s not. We choose who we associate with. We choose where we send our kids, we choose what we push our kids towards. We have choices. So if it feels like your child is behind or left out because they’re not doing X, why, Z, it’s because we’ve made those choices. The vast majority of people are not doing those things.

[mofongo]

I think I'd look into making some big lifestyle changes, or switching schools before I'd consider a cross country move! I'm sure you can find this lifestyle anywhere.

[gt7301b]

Our area is certainly high strung  but we try and not put too much pressure on DS.  His elementary school had 100/125 kids apply for the advanced academic program last year.   We didn't even tell him we applied.  He has friends who are in coding and extra math classes and then the parents complain about the on grade level math.  Our feeling is that isn't necessary and he will be fine either way.

The thing that does worry me is sports, I want him to have an opportunity to be active and be part of a team.  There are a few house leagues but you really have to work to find them past elementary school.  It is a shame cause sports should be for fun.

[abs]

It definitely could be that way here if we let it. And in ways we have. It’s the academic hunger games already.

My DD is also 13 and also is in therapy for anxiety/depression. She has cut back on a lot but has also taken on more in her areas of interest (science, math, and music). Ultimately though a lot of it is personality driven. She is a people pleaser and perfectionist. Even if she dropped out of every activity and dropped down from her pre-AP classes she would still be anxious about making her teachers happy and getting 100s because it’s who she is. Hence why we started therapy. She has to learn ways to reframe her thinking and realize the intense pressure she puts on herself isn’t sustainable. Her drive and ambition is very admirable and I am proud of her accomplishments but my biggest goal right now is to ensure she is happy. Where she lives won’t affect that (although she does want to leave Texas for college and uh, don’t blame her!)

[atarianna]

We live in a MCOL Midwest area, but in a more rural town on the outskirts of some more major Midwest cities. There is competition, clubs, AAU etc but we (and by extension my kids) don’t feel the pressure you describe. Ages are similar to yours.

I am not usually one to advocate big life changes but in your case, I don’t think a move to a slower pace would necessarily be a bad thing. Have you discussed it with your kids? We had considered a job opportunity that would take us overseas for a couple of years and wanted their input and opinions on how they would feel about it. How ingrained are they in their friendships and how devastated would they be to have to start over? I feel like adolescent friendships are really important.

[scm1011]

Feb 6, 2024 19:14:17 GMT -5 tiki said:

I'm in a HCOL city in the northeast, and while many signups do indeed sell out in minutes - swim class, summer camp, vacation camp, campsite reservations, events - so far our public school situation doesn't seem as intense as you describe.  I hear that some school districts near us are like this, however, and families have definitely moved out of those districts to protect their kids' mental health. 

I live in the same community as tiki and agree, we don't have the same intensity here. I suspect its in part because we have a VERY wide economic spread and its just not possible for a large part of our population to buy into that kind of life, which tempers the competitiveness. It is evident in more affluent suburbs and a is big reason why I'd never move there. 

I'm sorry your kids are feeling such pressure, that sounds really hard. 

[thebreakfastclub]

Based on OPs post history, the first step is probably moving on from the private school they've chosen if it's not a good fit.

[magma]

Feb 7, 2024 8:44:31 GMT -5 abs said:

It definitely could be that way here if we let it. And in ways we have. It’s the academic hunger games already.

My DD is also 13 and also is in therapy for anxiety/depression. She has cut back on a lot but has also taken on more in her areas of interest (science, math, and music). Ultimately though a lot of it is personality driven. She is a people pleaser and perfectionist. Even if she dropped out of every activity and dropped down from her pre-AP classes she would still be anxious about making her teachers happy and getting 100s because it’s who she is. Hence why we started therapy. She has to learn ways to reframe her thinking and realize the intense pressure she puts on herself isn’t sustainable. Her drive and ambition is very admirable and I am proud of her accomplishments but my biggest goal right now is to ensure she is happy. Where she lives won’t affect that (although she does want to leave Texas for college and uh, don’t blame her!)

Yes, this is exactly DS’s profile as well. People pleaser and perfectionist. If we insist that she slow down then there is anxiety and angst that she isn’t doing enough. It’s hard.

Thanks to all who have weighed in, very helpful to get so many perspectives. I do think it’s a bit of wherever you go, there you are, and change has to start with us not just our surroundings.

[erbear]

Feb 7, 2024 7:52:52 GMT -5 waverly said:

I think it’s valid for posters to say just opt out. And this is a great first step in thinking what is really important and having those conversations with your kids.

But I also think that can be very difficult especially with older kids because the message comes from their peers or they are internalizing a larger cultural message from their community. And that can cause anxiety and FOMO and other mental health issues. So I do see some worth in having your community match your personal values.

And it’s our job as parents not to get on the roller coaster. You have choices. You do not have to be associated with this.

[1yeartogo]

Right now I’m in this boat with my dd. She is overwhelmed in 6th grade at the excellent public school. We are actually looking into $$$ private schools that might (hopefully)be less demanding. (The whole reason we wanted to be in this area was the great public schools and we don’t want to spend money on private but short of moving there is no other choice.) I wish we were not in this district or that it didn’t effect her mental health so much, but maybe it’s just that middle school is a level of hell???

[abs]

Feb 7, 2024 9:24:53 GMT -5 erbear said:

Feb 7, 2024 7:52:52 GMT -5 waverly said:

I think it’s valid for posters to say just opt out. And this is a great first step in thinking what is really important and having those conversations with your kids.

But I also think that can be very difficult especially with older kids because the message comes from their peers or they are internalizing a larger cultural message from their community. And that can cause anxiety and FOMO and other mental health issues. So I do see some worth in having your community match your personal values.

And it’s our job as parents not to get on the roller coaster. You have choices. You do not have to be associated with this.

Sure but it doesn’t mean kids won’t hear the messages from teachers, counselors, or friends. Sometimes they end up on the rollercoaster despite our best efforts. Most of the time probably.

[konapoppy]

I do think a lot of this is mindset, and agree with wherever you go, there you are. I grew up going to elite private schools, while my husband was in a rural one room schoolhouse, homeschooled, then got his AA. We want our kids to be happy, and successful in a way that they measure. They are still young, but we are happy with the vibe of our city, which is much less competitive than the town next door. You can opt in to the level of competition, even in other parts of CA.

[erbear]

Feb 7, 2024 9:43:30 GMT -5 abs said:

Feb 7, 2024 9:24:53 GMT -5 erbear said:

And it’s our job as parents not to get on the roller coaster. You have choices. You do not have to be associated with this.

Sure but it doesn’t mean kids won’t hear the messages from teachers, counselors, or friends. Sometimes they end up on the rollercoaster despite our best efforts. Most of the time probably.

They do, for sure. But that's what I'm saying -- it's our job as parents not to buy into the hype. Show your kids it doesn't have to be this way. Help them figure out what's best for them. Talk to their adults at school and ask that they not push your kid into x, y, z, because your family doesn't do that. Look at your friend group and remove yourself from the world you don't want to be in. 

You can't keep them off the roller coaster. But you have to stay on the ground.

[wanderingback]

Re-reading the OP, if it is true that EVERYONE in the school is super depressed, anxious and stressed and pushing your kids negatively then I would consider different neighborhood school before moving across the country.

Also, I don’t know statistics on this for sure, but what is the diversity like at the school and your neighborhood? In my anecdotal experience when you live, work and play in a more diverse area (both racially and economically) then that allows you and your kids to be exposed to a lot more perspectives and experiences so you don’t get sucked in to the competition.

So yeah, I would take a good class look at what you can do in your current area before moving across the country.

[jennistarr1]

I'm east coast and didn't relate to what you described

[mrsGreeko]

This is a rich person phenomenon and I think there are pockets every where. But you can make other choices if you want.

We started our kids at a GT charter school that was full of high intensity parents who were absolutely obsessed with which math class their kindergartners were placed in. They were obsessed with getting their (rich) kids all the right opportunities, etc. the kids were probably going to be fine anyway because they were rich.

After seeing the damage it was doing to our oldest DD in middle school we abruptly switched all 3 of our kids to our neighborhood schools. Life has been infinitely better since then. The parents are much more chill and less high strung and it’s just less exhausting. And the younger two kids are happier in general. I think if we would have stayed they would have ended up in the same place as the oldest. It wasn’t an easy choice. The school we were at was highly ranked and had a lot to offer. The schools we put them in aren’t as well off and therefore have less. It was hard for them to start over at new schools (during covid so it was extra difficult). But it was the best decision. You can make choices here.

[ohgillian]

Feb 6, 2024 19:18:14 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

I'm going to be honest, we just do not buy into the hussle. I want my kids to have a happy, relaxed childhood. We focus on what brings us joy together as a family and let go of everything else.

I think this is it. I have friends locally that are like OP is describing but we just … don’t do that? It would be exhausting though if I felt like I was only surrounded by that type of person.

ETA: For example, things we don’t do include: push our kids to learn to read early; attend private school; expect our kids to be the “best”; make them participate in a lot of activities.

[InBetweenDays]

Feb 7, 2024 9:58:33 GMT -5 erbear said:

Feb 7, 2024 9:43:30 GMT -5 abs said:

Sure but it doesn’t mean kids won’t hear the messages from teachers, counselors, or friends. Sometimes they end up on the rollercoaster despite our best efforts. Most of the time probably.

They do, for sure. But that's what I'm saying -- it's our job as parents not to buy into the hype. Show your kids it doesn't have to be this way. Help them figure out what's best for them. Talk to their adults at school and ask that they not push your kid into x, y, z, because your family doesn't do that. Look at your friend group and remove yourself from the world you don't want to be in. 

You can't keep them off the roller coaster. But you have to stay on the ground.

I absolutely agree it's our job as parents to not buy in to the hype. But I also actually think you can keep them mostly off the rollercoaster based on the school and lifestyle choices we make as parents. If you live in an area where there is serious competition for choice public schools or you send your child to an elite private school then yes they are very likely to be exposed to this mindset. And as parents we may have to then work harder to keep them from buying in to the hype (and hopefully leading by example).

But our senior and freshman have not seen that pressure from peers or school counselors or other adults at our (fairly good) Seattle public high school or in our neighborhood. There was some of that on DD's travel lacrosse team, but we just didn't spend time with those families off the lacrosse field (which was easy because none of them went to our highschool). DD played travel because she loves the sport not because she wanted to play D1 in college.

Many of my close friends' kids are very excited to commit to an in-state college with 95% acceptance rate - a school that has some amazing academic options that is located in a fun town with so many outdoor activities. (It wasn't a good fit for DD because she wants a small liberal arts college).

I think for the most part you can avoid that rat race mindset by the choices we make and people we surround ourselves with.

ETA: and it seems like we're on the same page so I guess this is mostly a response to the person you were responding to. 🙂

[mrsGreeko]

I will add our oldest DD wanted to go to Stanford when she was in middle school. Maybe because all her friends at the high intensity school were talking about selective schools. We shrugged and said okay, but is that really what you want? Then she said she didn’t want to go to college at all. We said okay, you will figure it out. Then she abruptly decided to apply for college this past October without even talking to us about it first. She applied to a school with guaranteed acceptance if you have at least a 2.0 GPA so she knew she’d be accepted. She graduated HS in December and started college last month. She needed to be completely in control. We were there as support, but nothing else. She didn’t want us to decide her future or even have a say necessarily. And that is okay, it’s her future and her life. She’s essentially an adult now, although technically not 18 for a few more months. But chilling out was key to letting her figure out her path forward on her own with less pressure.

[chedifuen]

Feb 7, 2024 7:52:52 GMT -5 waverly said:

I think it’s valid for posters to say just opt out. And this is a great first step in thinking what is really important and having those conversations with your kids.

But I also think that can be very difficult especially with older kids because the message comes from their peers or they are internalizing a larger cultural message from their community. And that can cause anxiety and FOMO and other mental health issues. So I do see some worth in having your community match your personal values.

I think it would be harder if you're starting this mentality when they're older but I think if this has been your family value system since they were born then it's pretty easy for them to ignore that pressure. 

My kids are 17 and 13. My older son is a pretty high achieving student but he is wonderful about picking and choosing what AP classes to take based on interest and has no problem filling his schedule with cool electives. This semester, he's taking one AP class and has two electives he's really excited about that are just solely because they're interesting to him. 

Both kids look at some of their peers and say to us, "I'm so glad that isn't my life." Our weekends are free and open. They know that fosters creativity and will benefit them in life. 

[noodleoo]

Feb 7, 2024 8:58:51 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Feb 6, 2024 19:14:17 GMT -5 tiki said:

I'm in a HCOL city in the northeast, and while many signups do indeed sell out in minutes - swim class, summer camp, vacation camp, campsite reservations, events - so far our public school situation doesn't seem as intense as you describe.  I hear that some school districts near us are like this, however, and families have definitely moved out of those districts to protect their kids' mental health. 

I live in the same community as tiki and agree, we don't have the same intensity here. I suspect its in part because we have a VERY wide economic spread and its just not possible for a large part of our population to buy into that kind of life, which tempers the competitiveness. It is evident in more affluent suburbs and a is big reason why I'd never move there. 

I'm sorry your kids are feeling such pressure, that sounds really hard. 

I live in the suburbs of the same area in the Northeast and it is definitely more prevalent here. My town borders one of the "best" school districts in the state, also VHCOL, upper class town and the reputation is very similar to what magma describes.  The town is desirable for a lot of reasons, but I would never raise my kids there.  The district is known for having kids burn out before they graduate HS due to the pressure to achieve.  It is sad really.

So far my town is still a mixture so it is easier to opt out (which we do).  But I'm not sure how long it will last as housing prices have skyrocketed and like others have pointed out, this seems to be a product of upper class wealth.

[niq]

We live in the city (Seattle), so it's a little different from the high achieving suburbs here, and maybe Seattle is a bit more laid back than ... I'm just gonna guess ... the Bay Area. My kids are doing well academically but the 5th grader seems pretty chill about it. We do some afterschool activities, but nothing that's competitive right now.

If anything, I wish I could find a happy medium between the public schools, which seem a little too chill in the city (no homework in middle school, sports only practice 2 days a week, they just got rid of wet labs for science classes), and the VERY intensive private prep schools.

I get whiffs of more competitive pressures and overscheduled middle schoolers, and I have a couple of students whose parents yelled their way into more math acceleration than the school allows. But I haven't observed anybody who's really burned out or feels like they *have* to do all these things, they seem to enjoy most of what they've been signed up for. There are definitely high achieving students who give up on certain things because they're "only" the 20th best tenth grade mathlete in Western Washington. But they usually wander into some other academic enrichment, like robotics or computing or chess or mock trial, or they become organizational leaders.

For whatever it's worth, the average highly selective college student submits 3.5 AP test scores. Now, that means you have to get a 4 or a 5 (in some cases it has to be a 5), and it has to be the tests that selective schools will accept (e.g. many schools don't accept the AP Psychology test, and they don't give foreign language credit, you just take a test the first week and get placed properly). But fancy schools are not 100% full of students who have taken 8 AP courses and done linear algebra as a high school junior and been concertmaster of their all-state orchestra. They're mostly full of very very good students who have some level of academic engagement outside of school (Math team, Science Talent Search, Odessey of the mind, writing for the literary magazine or submitting things to local poetry contests, whatever they enjoy enough that they'll do it.)

[InBetweenDays]

Feb 7, 2024 12:11:46 GMT -5 niq said:

We live in the city (Seattle), so it's a little different from the high achieving suburbs here, and maybe Seattle is a bit more laid back than ... I'm just gonna guess ... the Bay Area. My kids are doing well academically but the 5th grader seems pretty chill about it. We do some afterschool activities, but nothing that's competitive right now.

If anything, I wish I could find a happy medium between the public schools, which seem a little too chill in the city (no homework in middle school, sports only practice 2 days a week, they just got rid of wet labs for science classes), and the VERY intensive private prep schools.

I get whiffs of more competitive pressures and overscheduled middle schoolers, and I have a couple of students whose parents yelled their way into more math acceleration than the school allows. But I haven't observed anybody who's really burned out or feels like they *have* to do all these things, they seem to enjoy most of what they've been signed up for. There are definitely high achieving students who give up on certain things because they're "only" the 20th best tenth grade mathlete in Western Washington. But they usually wander into some other academic enrichment, like robotics or computing or chess or mock trial, or they become organizational leaders.

For whatever it's worth, the average highly selective college student submits 3.5 AP test scores. Now, that means you have to get a 4 or a 5 (in some cases it has to be a 5), and it has to be the tests that selective schools will accept (e.g. many schools don't accept the AP Psychology test, and they don't give foreign language credit, you just take a test the first week and get placed properly). But fancy schools are not 100% full of students who have taken 8 AP courses and done linear algebra as a high school junior and been concertmaster of their all-state orchestra. They're mostly full of very very good students who have some level of academic engagement outside of school (Math team, Science Talent Search, Odessey of the mind, writing for the literary magazine or submitting things to local poetry contests, whatever they enjoy enough that they'll do it.)

Yeah, we basically held our nose through middle school. Especially for our 9th grader - it actually wasn't as bad for our senior. I will say our experience with the public high school has been very positive (academically, socially for the most part, and with athletics).

And I have to laugh at the second sentence I bolded. There was a post recently on an SPS Facebook page commenting on how HCC was meant to be the top 2%, but now more than 10% of the students in the district are identified as highly capable. A response was that is based on the top 2% nationally so our district just has 5x more qualifying kids than the national average. (big eye roll) Sure, it's not the parents pushing their kids in through private testing. I have a friend who teaches 5th grade at an HCC school and says there are a decent number of kids who are struggling and would be better served if they were learning at grade level in their neighborhood school. But the teachers and district can't make that recommendation - once you're in HCC you're in.

[wildrice]

Feb 6, 2024 22:55:05 GMT -5 dochas said:

Wherever you go, there you are. Unless you're willing to stop living like this it won't be different. You'll look for an affluent suburb with the same demands and competitions.

This! No kids here, but I was just talking to a friend about this sort of thing the other day. Her H wants to move to the west coast because he thinks the east coast is too competitive/busy/rat race. I was like, huh? There are parts of the east coast that have that reputation, but that's not my experience here whatsoever. There are certainly plenty of people who may feel or act that way in our metro area, but my H and I don't work places like that, don't have friends like that, and aren't involved in anything in the community that would make us feel that way. 

I am sure that there is a lot of pressure in some social circles, but there are also probably plenty of kids in your school who are not doing competitive sports, not taking high level academics, and aren't involved in a billion activities. It's just likely not the kids that yours are hanging around for whatever reason. 

That said, short of moving or switching schools I can see it being very hard to break out of a social circle. I can't imagine your kids would be thrilled by suddenly being excluded from things that their already established friends are doing, so I don't know that moving is a bad idea! But you will just have to be careful that wherever you go, you are intentional in seeking a less fast paced lifestyle. Otherwise you'll end up right back in the same place, but in a different location.

[mrsmayhem]

I also live in a competitive, affluent West-coast city and as the kids get older there is more and more pressure to excel and be involved in all the things. It's hard not to get sucked in to the rat race.

You start off keeping things low key when they are little, and then your kid develops a passion and talent in something and you think - why not foster that? They get invited to a select team with more practices, but you fail to account for the extra meets and team parties, etc. It becomes a time suck, but your kid loves it so you keep going...

Then you're surrounded by other parents who are not just involved in that one thing, but they are involved in ALL the things, and ALL the camps, and advanced academic tutoring, and so on. Even though you know none of it is necessary, it is hard not to get FOMO just listening to all of it. 

I have to actively resist the pressure to add more. When my kids want to add more activities, I ask them (and myself) - would you rather have more days of after-school activities, or more time for playdates / sleepovers / fun outings with your friends and our family? We all like to have time for the spontaneous fun stuff that pops up, so we try to leave room for that. Plus, we just need downtime at least once or twice during the week where we have nothing going on. 


I think one thing that helps a lot is their closest friends' families are low-key and laid back. They spend lots of time just chilling at home playing video games (gasp!).  

I understand the desire to move somewhere less intense. I don't think it's the only solution, but it would definitely force a reset for your family. You would just have to be careful not to get sucked back in to the 'more is better' mindset. 

[midwestmama]

I live in MI, which is mostly MCOL. I live in a small town which is a suburb of a metro area, and there are lots of small-town politics, especially in the school district, and especially with sports in the school district. Many kids start to opt-out of school sports by high school because they figure that they won't make the team because they aren't from the "right" family or their parents are buddies with the coach or they weren't "selected" back in late elementary/early middle school.

I would not say our school district parents hound the board/district admin to make changes to the rigor of academics. Our district is well-rounded in terms of opportunities for students of varying levels. I would say it's rare that a student from our district would go to an Ivy League school. Most will go to state colleges/universities or community college (if going on to higher ed.).

DH is convinced that we should move to another school district due to the sports politics of our current district (DS is a good athlete, but we certainly don't qualify in the "right" family category and we're not buddies with coaches), but I remind him that the grass is not always greener, and we could still encounter the same types of politics at another district.

[jamaicam]

Feb 7, 2024 13:03:54 GMT -5 mrsmayhem said:

You start off keeping things low key when they are little, and then your kid develops a passion and talent in something and you think - why not foster that? They get invited to a select team with more practices, but you fail to account for the extra meets and team parties, etc. It becomes a time suck, but your kid loves it so you keep going...

Then you're surrounded by other parents who are not just involved in that one thing, but they are involved in ALL the things, and ALL the camps, and advanced academic tutoring, and so on. Even though you know none of it is necessary, it is hard not to get FOMO just listening to all of it. 

I have to actively resist the pressure to add more. 

I completely understand this! Both my boys have a love for a sport - DS 11 is a swimmer and DS9 is a soccer player. Because they love it, they do it a lot, which gets us in the 'circle' with other parents who are intense. DS9's team went to Florida (we don't live in the US!) for a tournament at Christmas and I didnt send him so he had major FOMO.I have promised that he can do one of the trips in the next year but he will have to get that as a Christmas present etc as it isnt our priority or somethign that is necessary. So i get that once you let your kid do a sport, it can be very hard to back out of it.