No; my life is not like that. I live in metro Seattle. I teach at, and my kids attend, high-achieving independent schools. We are a little different than the majority demographic in that exH and I both work at the schools my kids attend.
My older son is in select sports. Here, "select baseball" is synonymous with "take all my money." Granted he's only 13 so we aren't in full college prep mode yet, but we've chosen this team for its less stress-inducing approach. We definitely play against teams where the parents are completely deranged and competitive.
I want my kids to be successful, but I also want them to be whole, happy humans. If this means that I don't care about their math track, I'm ok with it.
Don't move to the DC area. Definitely a rat race here. My neighborhood is not so much like that since it's economically and culturally diverse. But the pressures are there. I try not to let it get to me and obsess over it. My kids will be fine. They have tons of opportunities. It's up to them to pursue it if they want to. If they don't want to, that's fine too.
This doesn’t sound like a city versus small town thing to me, it sounds like an affluence thing.
I.e. if people can’t afford the crazy coaches and leagues and camps, they don’t do them. And that’s that.
I’d just start saying no to stuff. There are lots of places around me and in my city where people think their kids need to do all this stuff to “keep up”. But they don’t. Some of the most talented kids I know don’t do any of extra things like you are saying.
No, my life is nothing like that even though I also live in a west coast tech hub (Portland.)
I'm going to be honest, we just do not buy into the hussle. I want my kids to have a happy, relaxed childhood. We focus on what brings us joy together as a family and let go of everything else.
Same. I'm 90 mins away from the Silicon Valley. As a single solo parent, I just have to exit the rat race and focus on my daughter and myself. I simply CANNOT compete with dual income families and all of the 'extras' they can afford.
(Sorry to post and run, I will read the thread more closely later.)
Overall I feel that the level of intense competition I hear about in the west coast tech places like where you currently live is not present out here on the east coast. Our district allows to track in middle school so you can start with Algebra II in 9th grade. DD is scoring solid Bs in her math class so I don't know if she will end up on that track. I come from people who would absolutely push to make sure DD makes it on that track or even goes above and beyond. But I was reading the Ivy League thread on ML and thinking "at the end of the day, how much does it really matter?" I am surrounded by people who went to pedigreed schools. I did not go anywhere ever worth mentioning but I mostly found my path and place in life. Also I think there is a good mix of over-scheduled-and-enjoys-activities-but-not-elite kids (DD is currently one of them until we can drop swimming) and middle of the pack kids in our district.
We live in a "good" school district with a racially diverse mix of UMC families.
It’s like that where I live (high achieving, mostly medical/research/higher education area right outside Boston).
Sports aren’t quite as intense as academics, but you definitely feel the pressure to start very young, specialize early, and do all the club/travel/private coaching you can in order to play in high school. School is crazy. We are a very well regarded system, one of the best in the state, yet parents are constantly complaining that it isn’t rigorous enough. Fully half the parents send their kids to Russian Math starting in kindergarten. Everyone does “enrichment” prigrams constantly. In the high school the pressure to do honors and AP is intense. We are in the midst of college admissions worl and it’s lunacy - everyone wants Ivy League and it’s a constant drum beat of sending your kid to summer programs at Harvard and making sure they are in the robotics team going to nationals and private SAT tutoring and private college admissions programs and on and on.
I think you find it a lot of places in different ways but you can avoid it to the best of your ability. I refused to send my kids to Russian math for example. But the kids can feel the pressure so much from their peers. It can be really hard. There are so many great things about where we live and the quality of education that my kids are getting but the pressure on them is crazy. My oldest definitely feels it. Luckily my younger son hates sports and is into art so has avoided the typical pressure for things so far
This thread makes me appreciate our area a bit more. I don't love everything, and there are things I would change for sure, but I'm really happy we don't have the level of competition some people have.
I have never even heard of "Russian math," for example!
I'm in Wisconsin, on the far edge of large city suburbs/semi-rural. By far the vast majority of kids, regardless of income level, attend public school. There's one public middle and one public high school, no "magnet schools" or anything like that. If people are going to private, it's mostly either Catholic or Lutheran schools, and it's mostly just because they want something different or want some religious influence. It's not "better", just different, unless you go to one of maybe two very high-end private schools but they are far-ish from us and extremely expensive and our public education is generally considered good, so nobody does that.
There is zero talk about math tracks that I have heard. My first two are in advanced math, which doesn't start until middle school, but there's pretty much still just one advanced math track. In high school, there are both regular and honors levels of each class. There is one legit math genius kid we know of who was bussed to the high school for math in elementary, but he's legit off the charts beyond any other kids with math.
Sports-wise, I think it's also calmer. My brother's kid does all the crazy extra coaching stuff in his state for middle school soccer, and I don't hear of anyone doing that around here, at least not until maybe high school?? We aren't involved in any high-level sports so I don't know for sure. I still think select/travel leagues are crazy, but there isn't an additional extra private coaching expectation.
There is still, though, difficulty in doing multiple sports, and pressure to go to more select leagues if your kid is good. I wish everyone could just play good old rec dept ball together and do a different sport every season, like when I was little! There are options to get very intense with sports and make your chosen activity your life if you want to, for sure. We just are lucky? that none of our kids have been very good!!!
You hear of very few kids going to an Ivy or any especially selective private university (I may hear more about this as my daughter goes through high school). UW is a great school and still much cheaper than private colleges so quite a few top students will go there.
I found that article about Yale extracurriculars to be very interesting (and off-putting!).
I think that’s an affluent neighborhood thing and not a specific city thing. I live in the Chicago area. I am sure it is very similar to what you describe in the most affluent suburbs and parts of the city. (I had a coworker who lived a lot like that, and she and her kids were so stressed out and high-strung it was almost painful to watch.) I live in a suburb in a nice but not fancy area, and you can find small pockets of parents like that, but by and large, it is way more relaxed.
We live in California, in a suburb outside of Sacramento. It’s a nice, middle/upper middle class area, but not super fancy.
My kids are only in elementary school, but I don’t have any feeling of this hustle with the kids, and I don’t see it with my friends with older kids either.
A lot of kids participate in sports or activities, but it’s usually very casual - rec sports, 1x/week music, whatever. I’ve never heard of Russian math and haven’t known anyone to involve their kids in extra academic activities to get them “ahead” in school. There’s not a lot of choice or fight over schools. Most kids go to their assigned neighborhood school, or maybe a local charter (which run very conservative, so I don’t tend to know these families). The majority of high school kids either go to the local community college, which is free, or a state or UC school.
*the only exception here is kids baseball, which is INTENSE. My kid has played basketball year round, for years. It’s a great program, no pressure. He started baseball last year at age 8 and it’s…much different. Even on the regular rec league teams, some kids are getting private batting lessons, pitching coaches, etc. The families who are actually serious are doing travel ball, which is more practice and travel every weekend of the season. I’ve not seen any other kids sports like this, but if you want to play baseball, it’s much harder to get involved past early elementary. The families who do it seem to love it, but it was a big culture shock for me, coming from less serious rec leagues.
There are nearby suburbs that are much fancier (and wealthier) and the rat race is probably much more prominent there.
Not where we live, no. I have a sister in the Boston suburbs and one outside of DC and while there are absolutely families that buy into that kind of craziness, neither of them do.
Re: club/travel baseball. I will say we feel fortunate to have found the team we did. It is technically a club/travel team, but it's really more of a HS farm/prep team. Less intense than other travel teams we've encountered. Most of the boys on DS's team will be going to the same HS and are in the same grade, so they'll all hit Freshman, JV, and varsity baseball together. It is still expensive (around $1500-$2000 a season for the league fee, tournament fees, and uniform), but definitely not as much as some club/travel baseball teams. Coaches are volunteers (all dads of boys on the team), so that saves in costs. We do pay for private lessons for DS for hitting and now catching. I would say that for any kids who want to play baseball in HS, at least where we are, they pretty much need to be playing on a travel team before HS.
I agree that it seems to be more of an affluence thing, at least around here (Central Ohio). The suburbs immediately to the north and west of where I live are definitely more affluent, and the sports and academic programming are considerably higher pressure. Whereas the suburb I live in has more of a mix and while sports and academics are still good it's not as high pressure. Sure, there's outliers that are really intense about sports and/or academics but as a whole it's not as bad as the more affluent 'burbs.
Don't move to the DC area. Definitely a rat race here. My neighborhood is not so much like that since it's economically and culturally diverse. But the pressures are there. I try not to let it get to me and obsess over it. My kids will be fine. They have tons of opportunities. It's up to them to pursue it if they want to. If they don't want to, that's fine too.
Yup. I was going to say. This is 100% how things are here. But I think it's the area PLUS my income/class. I am sure if we were another class it wouldn't be the same because we wouldn't have access to all that stuff. BUT when you have access to everything, and our kids want it all. It is easy to get caught up in it.
Post by fortnightlily on Feb 8, 2024 10:46:04 GMT -5
Another DC-burbs resident chiming in to say yes, it's a mix. There's plenty of affluence and people caught up in competitive academics and extracurriculars for their kids. But if you choose not to live in the wealthiest and most homogeneous neighborhoods that feed into the top-tier private and public schools then you can find more balance. My kid is still in elementary, but he's not naturally competitive or exceptionally talented with sports or academics, so we just let him do his thing without too much pressure. We do know peers of his that are in multiple travel sports teams or the like, but it's not an overwhelming majority. We'll see what happens as he gets older.
Having to book activities and camps and whatnot the hour after registration opens is a real thing and annoying AF but I think that's more a population density issue.
That is not how it is in Portland, Maine. Or at least, there are many different approaches and you can find the lane that works for your kids.
Portland is becoming more HCOL than when I moved here ten years ago. More people moving in from big cities does bring a different tenor. Which includes me - I'm probably just as high-strung/snobbish/competitive in some ways. But I'm trying to be different.
We don't have a huge sports culture. I think there are travel teams but I'm not even sure - you don't have to get caught up in that if you don't want to. There are some kids who come from high-achieving families and those families do their thing, but there are lots of us who are happy with being in the middle, and this is a sanctuary city, so there is a significant portion of kids who are new Americans, dealing with learning the language and the culture, with parents who have been/are going through a lot just to get by.
I think it's kind of wonderful: we're trying to create a 21st century city and trying to build it equitably - and definitely not always or even half the time getting it right - but always with the focus on the state motto: "Maine - the way life should be." The pace is slower, and the ethos is very laid-back, and wealth is something you hide for the most part. People who try hard to impress are NOT the norm here.
I have never even heard of "Russian math," for example!
Okay but the Russian math (and Art of Problem Solving and so on and so forth) is *fun*
I think it's unfortunate but not surprising that the demand for high achieving education stuff is "parents who think this will help their kid get into MIT", in the same way a lot of demand for youth sports is from "parents who think this will help their kid get a college scholarship". It's possible to do academic extracurriculars that stretch beyond the classroom because you just like learning things, but like 90% of the parents who are willing to pay money for it are ... not that (and of the remaining 10%, 9% are children of academics lol).
So I live in the DC area in a more wealthy suburb. I don’t feel a rat race vibe bc we just opt out of rat race activities. It maybe also helps that our oldest is neurodiverse & we have just always recognized things will be different for us? But our kids have always been limited to 2 after school things & no year round sports (I need a winter & summer break from constant commitments; they need & love free play time). Our friends have the same values so that helps in it not feeling like a rat race I think. Our focus is on hard work (not results) and enjoying what you’re doing. They both are in rec soccer & enjoy it & only take advanced classes when they need the challenge.
OP, I wouldn’t rule out moving but I’d also have a family meeting to see if you can cut back on stressful things to see if your current area can work better for you?
Sometimes when I worry about whether I’m doing enough for my kids, I look around at my workplace and remember we have valedictorians from top colleges, Ph.Ds, MBAs from prestigious universities….and me, an English major from a small college very few people have heard of. I got the same title and pay with much, much less effort, so I win. (Just kidding. But it does make me feel better that we all kind of end up in the same place anyway.)
Don't move to the DC area. Definitely a rat race here. My neighborhood is not so much like that since it's economically and culturally diverse. But the pressures are there. I try not to let it get to me and obsess over it. My kids will be fine. They have tons of opportunities. It's up to them to pursue it if they want to. If they don't want to, that's fine too.
haha I was going to say +1 to Fairfax county Virginia (really all of northern Virginia) 😱
I think you have to opt out and live with that decision. My DD got really into lacrosse a few years ago. It started out small- a week-long camp then rec league play. Somehow she ended up playing year round and getting recruited by a club. It happened fast. Everyone around us was doing it. We opted out. It was way too time consuming and cost $2k per season. The parents and kids were very intense. I could see this was headed to a place we didn’t want to go. It felt weird opting out when all of her friends were in it. It’s hard making the choice that goes against the “norm” but sometimes we have to.
I do think you can find this kind of bubble anywhere so you have to focus on how you can change things yourself. Just moving to another place will likely result in more of the same.
I live in a HCOL west coast city (well, suburb outside) - San Diego. I think there’s a reason so many of our neighbors come from the Bay Area. Our schools are laid back (not much homework so far - my oldest is 11) and it’s a bigger accomplishment to be a good surfer than in gifted and talented math. My sister’s kids are in a high pressure Maryland suburb and I’m glad we don’t deal with the school pressure her kids do. Come live here and you can still get to where you are with an hour flight!
Re: sports, my daughter plays four. We actually just switched back from a travel team to the town league to opt out of some of the sports craziness, and it’s been great.
My area sounds like your area. I’m originally from the Midwest and my brother is raising his kids there and it’s not the same. We’ve had several friends leave CA for TX, TN, and NC and all have found a slower pace and lower COL and more opportunities due to less competition.
My kids are younger and we try to help them focus on doing their best and not comparing themselves with everyone else. We do what works for us and try to ignore the noise of the Joneses. We encourage our kids to do their best and realize there will always be someone smarter, faster, better than you at everything but it’s not about that, it’s about being your best self and being happy with who you are.
This area offers a lot of opportunity and the competition does help everyone get better as it does drive up the average which can offer insights and acceleration if you want it to. DH and I are competitive high achievers and have thrived here. We remind ourselves that we need to provide a safe environment for our kids to thrive in their own way regardless of what is “normal” in our area. The competition and hustle can bring you down if you focus on everyone else, but it’s not about everyone else. It’s about you and what makes you thrive.
Fwiw we opted out of Russian math but most of ds’s friends do it and almost all will take algebra in 7th and geometry in 8th to make room for more ap classes in high school. Ds is in advanced math now but won’t do algebra until 8th. He will be fine.
Post by SusanBAnthony on Feb 10, 2024 12:41:36 GMT -5
We live in a close in suburb of a big Midwestern city.
Our district is small and not super competitive and is definitely not like what you described at all. Most kids do whatever the city rec sports/activities are, and then the high school clubs and sports.
Very few AP classes are offered here, kids do PSEO instead.
I feel like it's a good balance of school not being ultra competitive, but because we live in a big metro area if your kid needs something specific you can find it.
Also my goal isn't for my kids to go to an elite school, it's for them to go to whatever state school (or tech school or community college or no school) and be happy.
This post is so timely for me. I really appreciate it and have sat thinking about it the past two days. I haven’t read all the replies but absolutely will.
We sound like neighbors, literally. I could have written this post word for word. I have spent a couple years struggling with this issue. I just always felt my daughter was never going to be good enough and felt constant pressure as if I’m not doing enough. Just in the past month things have started to change. I realize I was hanging around the wrong crowd of moms. They all seem super high achieving and of course their kids are top athletes in multiple sports. There’s gross gossip about those who are not “good enough”. I am having to make a big effort to disassociate with these moms and focus on friendships with people like you, for my own mental health as well as my kids. Things are really improving greatly since I’ve changed my mindset. Our kids are not just accomplishments. They’re human beings and raising good human beings who are happy and healthy should be the goal. I remind myself of that constantly.
Please please please don’t change. Share your thoughts with others. You have this unique opportunity to bring back some normalcy for kids. Search out other like minded parents. Groupthink is killing our society with the masses thinking they all have to be the best. I’m sickened at how our area has become. But I also know running away won’t help. I will just keep instilling in my child that they are more than enough. They have their own unique accomplishments and traits that are significantly more important than being a top sports player or even a 4.5 gpa student. I would be a very sad person if I knew you personally and you left our neighborhood. I want MORE “normal” people to speak up and help normalize “normal”. You are parenting the right way. Don’t change.
Sometimes when I worry about whether I’m doing enough for my kids, I look around at my workplace and remember we have valedictorians from top colleges, Ph.Ds, MBAs from prestigious universities….and me, an English major from a small college very few people have heard of. I got the same title and pay with much, much less effort, so I win. (Just kidding. But it does make me feel better that we all kind of end up in the same place anyway.)
Yes! Also a long these lines... Im not a big sports person, but randomly came across an interview with Tom Brady. He didn't even start playing football until late highschool, and while he was ok he wasn't a star player. So whenever I start feeling like maybe I/my kids should be doing more I remember that. There is always time, and kids will become adults who choose what really matters to them and what they want to pursue.
I live in a high achieving town outside of Boston and no, I don't feel that pressure.
Are there who do, probably. But I don't buy into it.
Both of my kiddos have adhd and anxiety. They received support from their schools for their anxiety and are in therapy. Unfortunately, they would have anxiety wherever we live because it is hereditary.
If you are unhappy where you live, I say explore other options. Moving could do amazing things for you and your family.
I guess it’s not that bad here because I’ve never heard of Russian math, lol!
Russian math is actually pretty big here but it's a very specific group of kiddos who take the classes. It's definitely not an everyone takes it type of thing and it's a huge commitment regarding time and money.